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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Reservefj40
Rapier Innovations
#241 - 2011-10-18 16:14:09 UTC
While this is a great idea and I love giving more control to the players, I can't help but feel you are giving more control to the BLOBS.

Is there a limit on how many a corporation can control? If not, then he who has the biggest blob has the contol over all PI, prices and a huge isk tap.
Bilaz
Duck and Finch
#242 - 2011-10-18 16:16:02 UTC
what we need for eve - more stupid structures to build, haul and grind Ugh.
So suppose that i'm solo-industrialist and have 5-6 planet factory - to use that **** i would have to build 6 ******* customs, pay ~300mil isk, haul it **** knows where, support them and lose them in 2 days after someone with 10+ supercaps (and nothing better to do) notice them? no thats just perfect.

Suppose i live in angel space - why they would allow some capsuleers to have custums of their own on their turf? let them make taxes according to their standing towards you.
Anela Cistine
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#243 - 2011-10-18 16:17:03 UTC
Dratic wrote:
I personally do not like the idea of defender getting a near perfect time when it comes out of reinforcement with them not being in system when a POCO is reinforced. It just reinforces the afk nature like the current sov system which is flawed. The attacker has no influence on the timer where as with stront in pos' you could get a preferable time if the defender wasnt there to adjust the timer. There needs to be a way for the attacker to influence the timer.




Without defenders getting to influence the timer, small groups will have no hope of defending. Most smaller corps and alliances are all one timezone, leaving at least 12 hours a day when they are unable to play Eve, and therefore unable to defend structures for entirely Out Of Game reasons. Forcing small groups to blob up would be counter-productive.

If they go with the numbers we've seen, these things will crumble if anyone sneezes at them. Great, targets for subcaps. Unfortunately that means that the AFK Cloakering Brigade will also be able to reinforce these things fairly quickly, and just cloak up if anyone tries to defend it. The griefing opportunities are amazing. Black ops groups absolutely will reinforce these things just for lols, with no intention of engaging in small gang combat. Being able to ensure that the structure comes out of reinforced when the defenders are able to be online is the only defence they'll have.
XavierVE
No Corporation for Old Spacemen
#244 - 2011-10-18 16:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: XavierVE
CCP Omen wrote:
Raziphan Rebular wrote:
XavierVE wrote:
Quote:
Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.


And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec.



Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.


That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.

Regards
Omen


I don't mean to be rude, though it may sound rude to ask... but do you play the game? In what age and era do 0.0 alliances do anything to "provide services" to those who aren't on their blue-lists? They will simply blow up the low-sec CO's they haven't set standings on in order to grief everyone who hasn't signed up to the biggest bluefest in EVE's history. No null entity will care about making a 9% tax profit off of these things, they will simply want them gone so they can corner the market on POS fuel production. Like the Russians or the Goons give a horse's ass about a small isk profit on low-sec CO's when they control tech moons. They will simply destroy to grief.

The state of 0.0 is so shite right now that Goons are camping Gallente ice fields out of pure bluefest boredom. It's not a matter of 0.0 alliances becoming even richer by monopolizing their nearby low sec CO's, it is that they will simply destroy them and replace them with nothing. And even if your scenario were true, no, that isn't "fine." Why are you trying to design a mechanic that simply allows the rich to get richer?

Nothing in this change helps small entities, and that you would say "if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this" almost sounds like a complete troll. You designed yet another HP-grind that will only benefit the blobfest while giving the average capsuleer even less incentive to dip their toe out of high sec.
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
#245 - 2011-10-18 16:17:39 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:


That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.

Regards
Omen


If the assumption does turn out to be wrong, which I suspect it will because people would reason it's better to keep the planet's resources within the corp, and it probably won't take many corpmembers doing PI on a planet to maximize it's output even if such reasoning might be incorrect, what kind of adjustments would CCP be looking at?

p.s. wow that sentence looks overly complicated...
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2011-10-18 16:18:52 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Very interesting...

Edit: Why not in hi sec to ?


We consider Player Owned Customs Offices in High-Sec a MUCH bigger impact on the game and the economy
Omen


Yes it might create a legitimate reason for highsec warefare Big smile
Raid'En
#247 - 2011-10-18 16:19:10 UTC
Reservefj40 wrote:
While this is a great idea and I love giving more control to the players, I can't help but feel you are giving more control to the BLOBS.

Is there a limit on how many a corporation can control? If not, then he who has the biggest blob has the contol over all PI, prices and a huge isk tap.


goons could easily do a campaign like current one, and take over entire region of lowsec PI if they want.
there is nothing that can stop them (or other big entities), while it give good interest ; more reason to send the troops pew pew, and more profits possible.
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
#248 - 2011-10-18 16:19:36 UTC
Oh, and I just thought of something else, in a heavily contested system, will PI conducting residents of that system often be unable to harvest their resources because the costums offices are switching hands so often?
Iosue
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#249 - 2011-10-18 16:19:53 UTC
Jake Centauri wrote:

Why would a large alliance charge anything less than 100% tax for planets "open to the public?"


Not just large alliances, why would anyone charge anything less than 100% for "open to the public"? Assuming the customs owner is a PI industrialist, wouldn't it benefit them to set the taxes to the highest amount to discourage the use of that planet by others?
CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#250 - 2011-10-18 16:21:04 UTC
Aynen wrote:
Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.

When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit.
Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something.
Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up.
This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp.


You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? Question On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.

If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison
Raid'En
#251 - 2011-10-18 16:22:44 UTC
Iosue wrote:
Jake Centauri wrote:

Why would a large alliance charge anything less than 100% tax for planets "open to the public?"


Not just large alliances, why would anyone charge anything less than 100% for "open to the public"? Assuming the customs owner is a PI industrialist, wouldn't it benefit them to set the taxes to the highest amount to discourage the use of that planet by others?

cause the guys can use another planet and pay nothing to him.

this works only if everyone agree to do it.
problem is that blob may force people to do what they want ; like forcing freeport to be at 100%, or they attack them.

i really like the idea of this change, but i'm extremaly worried about what the communitty will do :/
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#252 - 2011-10-18 16:22:45 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
30mil for the first stage module, another 30 in parts to upgrade it to functionality. BPC cost 6k LP and 20mil from CONCORD LP store (incursion) or 3k LP and 10mil from factional warfare LP stores.

So, we’ll probably see 200mil for the first mods. After a month, it’s possible prices will drop to 100mil. We probably won’t see bottom dollar (~75mil) for at least 3-6 months. This doesn’t even begin to address the HUGE spike in PI material prices that we’ll see. The early speculation alone will spike prices to minimum 200% up to a month before release and final details are set in place. Towers are going to also see an incredible increase in price due to simple demand for the parts for the customs offices. Although they probably are not produced or consumed in high enough volumes for the price increase to be very noticeable at first. Simply fueling towers will also become more burdensome, especially in the early days of the release of the feature.

All mechanics aside, I don't see this as a positive change. There are just not enough benefits coming from the change for players as a whole. I will say that the small operator out in low-sec is faced with a decision of putting the mods out and risking large sums of isk or simply packing up and going back to mission running. I'm curious as to how much these 'small operators' are contributing to the supply of PI materials.

Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.

Essentially, for awhile, towers will see a rapid decline in usage or simply a higher cost of operation. Invasion of space will see a similar effect. I see those two things as a very good reason to consider further development of the feature. More benefits should be added to the process of PI, such as (mentioned several times in this thread alone) simplified PI management, tools that help ease the click-fest, and possibly an increase in PI yeild from all planets to help deal with the supply shock.


Let's agree to disagree, one comment though, Since highsec taxes are doubled, and highsec produce 50% of all PI goods that should help counter the inflation, if we have overestimated the kill ratio for the offices themselves.


Do this much for us: Task someone from the economics team to watch prices and stores of PI goods during the transition period, with the NPC traders ready to go if there's any real threat to the economy. Generally speaking I don’t like artificial suppliers in a sandbox game, but this transition could lead to some pretty nasty price shocks. I don’t have any issue with seeing prices reflect supply/demand, but having half the POSes in Eve go offline for lack of supplies at any cost would be ugly.

Also, get us those BPCs well before the NPC COs go offline so we can prime the supply pump.

I’m not sure what I think of this change when it comes to non-sov space (my lo-sec PI is going to be real dicey for a while). It all depends on how fast the COs go up, who ends up controlling them, and how they are generally run. If the alliances end up controlling them we could see some interesting embargos, brutal taxes for indies, or who knows. If griefers farm them for tears (it’s a defenseless punching bag, it’s going to happen), non-sov PI could be largely taken out of the supply equation.

Interesting times ahead, that’s for sure.
Bilaz
Duck and Finch
#253 - 2011-10-18 16:23:28 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Raziphan Rebular wrote:
XavierVE wrote:
Quote:
Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.


And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec.



Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.


That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.

Regards
Omen

Why would anyone want to share its resources with someone hostile to them? being big powerfull and all they deny you any of it - if you want it - you first pay them for standings AND THEN you pay 9% tax. alternative is grinding structure that for someone big cost nothing and more or less defendable, for you its big deal and you cant defend/attack.
XavierVE
No Corporation for Old Spacemen
#254 - 2011-10-18 16:23:29 UTC
Quote:
You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you?


You seem like a really nice guy, but anyone who could ask such a question simply doesn't play EVE.
Kata Amentis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#255 - 2011-10-18 16:23:48 UTC
so this hinges on the "enlightened self interest" of the PCO owners...

out of curiosity, what kind of population levels does a planet support at the moment? will the devs been keeping an eye on them as a part of watching the situation develop as well?

Curiosity killed the Kata... ... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#256 - 2011-10-18 16:26:04 UTC
In addition to the import/export tax - there should be a daily "storage" tax - which will encourage players not to leave stuff sitting in the POCO storage. Then you could make various sizes of POCOs have smaller/larger storage capacity that is shared among all users. Charge the fee at downtime.

The issues here is:

- How do users pay the fee? Daily deduction from their wallet? Or only when they pickup the goods?

- What happens if the user can't afford the fee? Does the product default to the owner?

- Maybe make it so that if you haven't visited the POCO within the last 30 days, your personal hangar contents go poof (just like a GSC in space).

(I'm not sure that charging a daily storage fee is viable at all especially if mixed with shared storage - a griefer could fill up the POCO with cheap goods on an alt with no ISK and just let it sit there clogging up the works.)
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#257 - 2011-10-18 16:26:14 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
30mil for the first stage module, another 30 in parts to upgrade it to functionality. BPC cost 6k LP and 20mil from CONCORD LP store (incursion) or 3k LP and 10mil from factional warfare LP stores.

So, we’ll probably see 200mil for the first mods. After a month, it’s possible prices will drop to 100mil. We probably won’t see bottom dollar (~75mil) for at least 3-6 months. This doesn’t even begin to address the HUGE spike in PI material prices that we’ll see. The early speculation alone will spike prices to minimum 200% up to a month before release and final details are set in place. Towers are going to also see an incredible increase in price due to simple demand for the parts for the customs offices. Although they probably are not produced or consumed in high enough volumes for the price increase to be very noticeable at first. Simply fueling towers will also become more burdensome, especially in the early days of the release of the feature.

All mechanics aside, I don't see this as a positive change. There are just not enough benefits coming from the change for players as a whole. I will say that the small operator out in low-sec is faced with a decision of putting the mods out and risking large sums of isk or simply packing up and going back to mission running. I'm curious as to how much these 'small operators' are contributing to the supply of PI materials.

Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.

Essentially, for awhile, towers will see a rapid decline in usage or simply a higher cost of operation. Invasion of space will see a similar effect. I see those two things as a very good reason to consider further development of the feature. More benefits should be added to the process of PI, such as (mentioned several times in this thread alone) simplified PI management, tools that help ease the click-fest, and possibly an increase in PI yeild from all planets to help deal with the supply shock.


Let's agree to disagree, one comment though, Since highsec taxes are doubled, and highsec produce 50% of all PI goods that should help counter the inflation, if we have overestimated the kill ratio for the offices themselves.


Agreed :)

50% is the current contribution. How will that change when the supply coming from non-high sec adjusts to the mechanics change and surpases high-sec contribution? Again, if I was a more active player pulling in money from many different sources this would be a much smaller concern. The state of the economy affects the casual player more than anyone since their money flow is much slower (not necessarily smaller).

Is there any word on possible UI improvements that will be released along with this new feature? Hilmar did mention in his post that the player base would be heard on calls for improvements for existing features.


What I can say is that we have improved the UI that specifically concern the Customs Office. I can't speak for other features I'm afraid...


Your choice of what to talk about and what not to talk about speak volumes :) 42 indeed.

I think serious consideration should be given to the "leave current infrastructure in place". There have been numerous mentions of the benefits and I can't really see any cons.
Andrea Griffin
#258 - 2011-10-18 16:26:57 UTC
Iosue wrote:
Jake Centauri wrote:
Why would a large alliance charge anything less than 100% tax for planets "open to the public?"
Not just large alliances, why would anyone charge anything less than 100% for "open to the public"??
Because nearby there will be someone with only 50% tax. Guess where the PI producers will go.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Raid'En
#259 - 2011-10-18 16:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Raid'En
CCP Omen wrote:


You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? Question On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.

If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.

man have you lived on wormhole space ?
it's pretty dangerous to allow people to stay here.
you could allow blues to use your planets, but there's a risk some of your customer are a trap and in fact use this opportunity to steal the system from you.
the best protection of w-space is that no one know where your entrance is. sure some guys have spies, but not much.
the more people you allow the more dangerous is it to live here. so it's far safer to refuse people to use your planets
it's like making freeport station on sov nullsec ; it's something really few alliances do...
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
#260 - 2011-10-18 16:27:33 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Aynen wrote:
Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.

When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit.
Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something.
Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up.
This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp.


You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? Question On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.

If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.


Well, there are two conflicting mechanics at work, on the one hand you can have money from other people doing PI on your worlds, on the other hand, the more people mine from them, the less there will be for you. If the latter would not be the case (not even a little, we're talking about greed here after all) then I'd say the chances of people opening up their costums offices to the public vastly increase. But giving players conflicting insentives doesn't strike me as good synergy in design.