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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1341 - 2013-05-21 14:24:42 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:

@CCP Rise, how about giving the Tempest an extra Mid slot.
8/6/6, keep it's high mass, keep it's ****** capacitor, keep it's shite power grid and cpu, it's 2 damage bonuses on 6 that aren't worth 1, keep the fact that the raven and typhoon do substantially more dps outside neut range, and that the megathron and hyperion do more within neut range.

problem:

1 low will be used for fitting mod so it would be like you made it 8/6/5

-> i'd rather have it 7/6/6

The slot would be used to fix whatever perceived issue we all have with the tempest for our specific use case. That's the point. Smile

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1342 - 2013-05-21 14:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
If I was flying a regular Megathron vs a Kiting tempest, What would happen if I fitted rails, a couple of nano's and and weapon mods? A Tempest can't counter, AC's don't have the damage at range, the Tempest doesn't have the low slots to make up the speed advantage or build up any sort of transversal, and we all know what happens when we try to fit 1400mms or active tanking mods on the thing.

Meanwhile, a Megathon (perhaps the least optimal out of Megathron, Hyperion, Phoon or Raven to compare to), if it wanted to, could get so close to a Tempest in performance it didn't matter (this is before the changes to speed and hit points).

When a pony is so bad at it's one trick, its best to lovingly put it down.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1343 - 2013-05-21 14:40:21 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ok invalidate is a strong word, Minimizes should be a more appropriated word. On battleship scale you hardly ever have issues of capacitor unless you are being neutralized.

I take it you never flown any amarr battleship.Lol



Massively wrong presumption from your part.

I have amarr BS V and all their guns at spec V and I think I kille dmore things in amarr battleship than ANY other race.


No you do not have problems of capacitor at ALL with pulses ( with good skills you could Use mega pulses with MF for the lenght or any normal fight) and when you have cap injectors you do not have problems with beams as well for any engagement other than killing structures and capitals. Tachyons are the only oens that coudl give you a problem, but the fights you do with tachyon are the only weapon that need some management to deal with capacitor issues. But they have a LOT of dps to compensate that.


I repeat I NEVER EVER was in a situation that I could not fire a Mega Pulse shot b ecaue of lack of capacitor unless being heavily neuted. With mega bemas take AGES to have cap problems becaus eyou have a WHOEL cargo hodl for cap charges. Tachyosn do get out of cap... but otherwise they would be way overpowered!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#1344 - 2013-05-21 15:41:29 UTC
Looks like it's time for me to get training for those T2 large blasters, rails and lasers or, buy a stack of Typhoons. Ugh

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Lugalzagezi666
#1345 - 2013-05-21 15:57:49 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ok invalidate is a strong word, Minimizes should be a more appropriated word. On battleship scale you hardly ever have issues of capacitor unless you are being neutralized.

I take it you never flown any amarr battleship.Lol



Massively wrong presumption from your part.

I have amarr BS V and all their guns at spec V and I think I kille dmore things in amarr battleship than ANY other race.


No you do not have problems of capacitor at ALL with pulses ( with good skills you could Use mega pulses with MF for the lenght or any normal fight) and when you have cap injectors you do not have problems with beams as well for any engagement other than killing structures and capitals. Tachyons are the only oens that coudl give you a problem, but the fights you do with tachyon are the only weapon that need some management to deal with capacitor issues. But they have a LOT of dps to compensate that.


I repeat I NEVER EVER was in a situation that I could not fire a Mega Pulse shot b ecaue of lack of capacitor unless being heavily neuted. With mega bemas take AGES to have cap problems becaus eyou have a WHOEL cargo hodl for cap charges. Tachyosn do get out of cap... but otherwise they would be way overpowered!



I find that quite unbelievable as I spent almost all the time flying battleships in abaddon - and my experience tells me, that if fight lasted more than a 4-5 minutes, all I could do was to slowboat from wreck to wreck and look for cap boosters.

I still like how tachyons would be way overpowered and yet people fit artillery on their abaddons.Lol
drake duka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1346 - 2013-05-21 16:10:29 UTC
I realize the mwd cap issues affect all battleships but I was bringing it up since Rise was suggesting the role of shield/nano tempest similar to tornado. If it were to fill this role it would need a cap booster to run mwd. It is an interesting and unique role for a bs (even though t3 bc do it so well) but the Tempest simply isn't agile enough, and the TE nerf will make it totally useless in that role.
drake duka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1347 - 2013-05-21 16:13:42 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ok invalidate is a strong word, Minimizes should be a more appropriated word. On battleship scale you hardly ever have issues of capacitor unless you are being neutralized.

I take it you never flown any amarr battleship.Lol



Massively wrong presumption from your part.

I have amarr BS V and all their guns at spec V and I think I kille dmore things in amarr battleship than ANY other race.


No you do not have problems of capacitor at ALL with pulses ( with good skills you could Use mega pulses with MF for the lenght or any normal fight) and when you have cap injectors you do not have problems with beams as well for any engagement other than killing structures and capitals. Tachyons are the only oens that coudl give you a problem, but the fights you do with tachyon are the only weapon that need some management to deal with capacitor issues. But they have a LOT of dps to compensate that.


I repeat I NEVER EVER was in a situation that I could not fire a Mega Pulse shot b ecaue of lack of capacitor unless being heavily neuted. With mega bemas take AGES to have cap problems becaus eyou have a WHOEL cargo hodl for cap charges. Tachyosn do get out of cap... but otherwise they would be way overpowered!



I find that quite unbelievable as I spent almost all the time flying battleships in abaddon - and my experience tells me, that if fight lasted more than a 4-5 minutes, all I could do was to slowboat from wreck to wreck and look for cap boosters.

I still like how tachyons would be way overpowered and yet people fit artillery on their abaddons.Lol

Tachyons are extremely difficult to fit (maybe being changed?), I don't think people fit arty on abaddons due to cap usage though. When was the last time you saw sniper fit abaddon though?
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1348 - 2013-05-21 16:49:24 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Looks like it's time for me to get training for those T2 large blasters, rails and lasers or, buy a stack of Typhoons. Ugh



The writing was on the wall over 15 months ago. I have all my large weapon specializations to 4 and all my racial BS to 5. R.I.P. Tempest.
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
#1349 - 2013-05-21 16:58:55 UTC
Hi Rise,

I understand that you want to buff the Tempest incrementally until it's on par with the other ships. I can even agree with that for the most part. However, I also agree with just about all of the other posters that the Tempest's agility and acceleration are waaaay too low. It takes too many cycles to get up to speed in the tempest, and it can't maneuver well enough for its increased speed to compensate for its failures in other areas. If nothing else, please improve the Tempest's acceleration and agility with Odyssey.

Also, thanks for reading all of our feedback. I know it must be difficult at times, but it's definitely appreciated. Bear
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1350 - 2013-05-21 19:27:04 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
Looks like it's time for me to get training for those T2 large blasters, rails and lasers or, buy a stack of Typhoons. Ugh



The writing was on the wall over 15 months ago. I have all my large weapon specializations to 4 and all my racial BS to 5. R.I.P. Tempest.


Tempest was never good.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1351 - 2013-05-21 19:57:21 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Again, don't worry, if Tempest is clearly broken after Odyssey, we'll fix it.


The question is are you guys willing to go back and make major changes to the ship, such as a slot layout change or hull bonus change, if that's what it would take to fix the ship? I'm not convinced from what I've seen on second pass changes so far, which have only been a dash of powergrid, a bit of extra drone m3, or a slight tweek to mass.

Currently a battleship that's under performing can still see use because of extreme price differences, once Odyssey hits it all comes down to role and performance. I'm not convinced that the tempest will measure up.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1352 - 2013-05-21 20:02:53 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:

The question is are you guys willing to go back and make major changes to the ship, such as a slot layout change or hull bonus change, if that's what it would take to fix the ship?


They pretty much aren't. See the T1 frigates, and how the bad ones are only getting +50 hull, even after such a long time. Same for the destroyers and probably the BCs.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1353 - 2013-05-21 22:17:15 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
Looks like it's time for me to get training for those T2 large blasters, rails and lasers or, buy a stack of Typhoons. Ugh



The writing was on the wall over 15 months ago. I have all my large weapon specializations to 4 and all my racial BS to 5. R.I.P. Tempest.


Tempest was never good.

Relatively speaking, it was good when the multispec of doom or the sensor damp or doom or the nos of doom ruled, when tornados and maelstroms didn't exist, and when 1400mm's could sometimes take battleship down to structure in a volley. Basically, 5 years ago.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1354 - 2013-05-21 22:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Also, if CCP Rise was really honest about making a bigger battlecruiser for the Tempest, he would have started with combat battlecruiser stats for everything except the power grid and slots, and added or subtracted were necessary.

What we have now is a ship that's basically incompatible with the type of gangs that concept seemed to be centered around, is horribly inefficient at dealing with ABC's compared to the options now available, and is pretty much pray to all of it's peers.

Basically, I'm starting to believe that the dev's think the tempest is actually fine, the numbers will reflect it post release and that we're just over reacting - not the, we want to fix it but we don't know how.... :s

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1355 - 2013-05-22 05:01:23 UTC
Look at the frigate rebalance. Look at the cruiser rebalance. Look at battlecruisers. Now look at the impending battleship rebalance and understand the meaning of "you don't switch horses in mid-stream".

Maybe the Tempest will be made into a good and useful ship as a surprise for EVE's 15th or 20th Anniversary.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1356 - 2013-05-22 09:51:32 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Also, if CCP Rise was really honest about making a bigger battlecruiser for the Tempest, he would have started with combat battlecruiser stats for everything except the power grid and slots, and added or subtracted were necessary.

What we have now is a ship that's basically incompatible with the type of gangs that concept seemed to be centered around, is horribly inefficient at dealing with ABC's compared to the options now available, and is pretty much pray to all of it's peers.

Basically, I'm starting to believe that the dev's think the tempest is actually fine, the numbers will reflect it post release and that we're just over reacting - not the, we want to fix it but we don't know how.... :s


Well what i dont get is why state the tempest is fine then say if it is subpar they will revised it, i mean we all know how many times CCp revisited something that was mhee, on top of my head : HEL , Old typhoon , arties ...And i could go on , what it saddens me is that no sane people will fly tempest if they can fly another sip that does what supposedly the tempest should be doing .

But if rise says tempest is fine , well maybe we are all wrong .
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1357 - 2013-05-22 10:32:15 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ok invalidate is a strong word, Minimizes should be a more appropriated word. On battleship scale you hardly ever have issues of capacitor unless you are being neutralized.

I take it you never flown any amarr battleship.Lol



Massively wrong presumption from your part.

I have amarr BS V and all their guns at spec V and I think I kille dmore things in amarr battleship than ANY other race.


No you do not have problems of capacitor at ALL with pulses ( with good skills you could Use mega pulses with MF for the lenght or any normal fight) and when you have cap injectors you do not have problems with beams as well for any engagement other than killing structures and capitals. Tachyons are the only oens that coudl give you a problem, but the fights you do with tachyon are the only weapon that need some management to deal with capacitor issues. But they have a LOT of dps to compensate that.


I repeat I NEVER EVER was in a situation that I could not fire a Mega Pulse shot b ecaue of lack of capacitor unless being heavily neuted. With mega bemas take AGES to have cap problems becaus eyou have a WHOEL cargo hodl for cap charges. Tachyosn do get out of cap... but otherwise they would be way overpowered!



I find that quite unbelievable as I spent almost all the time flying battleships in abaddon - and my experience tells me, that if fight lasted more than a 4-5 minutes, all I could do was to slowboat from wreck to wreck and look for cap boosters.

I still like how tachyons would be way overpowered and yet people fit artillery on their abaddons.Lol


Maybe then it syour problem, because with pulses you can fight any reasonable lenght fight (and for me that does not mean a 0.0 massive blob fight of 1-2 hours.. but any small engagement where the singularties of a battleship are relevant). The armageddon and apocalypse were even easier due to cap usage bonus.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1358 - 2013-05-22 10:35:30 UTC
drake duka wrote:
I realize the mwd cap issues affect all battleships but I was bringing it up since Rise was suggesting the role of shield/nano tempest similar to tornado. If it were to fill this role it would need a cap booster to run mwd. It is an interesting and unique role for a bs (even though t3 bc do it so well) but the Tempest simply isn't agile enough, and the TE nerf will make it totally useless in that role.



In other words a role already born dead, because the tornado can run it better due to far superior agility and falloff bonus.

If you want to fight on taht role you stay outside 25 km range because you will not have a large tank and need to keep away from blasters superior firepower up to 22 km. At that range the neutralizer sof the tempest are just as useful as a christmas tree in a fight. And the falloff bonus of the tornado means it wil lbe dealing far more damage.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#1359 - 2013-05-22 10:56:33 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Garresh wrote:
...I don't like where the tempest is right now, but I'd say it's safe bet if it doesn't turn out well, it will be fixed within 2 months.

I'd like to see anyone in this thread do better.


I'll quote this back to you when the Tempest remains as broken as it is now in August.

As to your second assertion, I disagree. There have been many viable ideas proposed in this thread by longtime and very knowledgeable players that would have helped bring the Tempest up to par with the other battleships. Almost any of those would have been better than what we're finally getting in Odyssey.

The fact that Rise seems to think the current 'Pest is fine, as evidenced by his statements and his last very modest tweaks, don't bode well for you winning that "safe bet".


How about a wager? I'll bet 100 mil the tempest will be in a good place within 3 months after Odyssey launches. Ninja's honor. Lol

And to that other guy. I'm optimistic because I fly around in cruisers and frigs in lowsec all the time. I don't think eve has ever been this balanced. Ever. Their track record so far on tiericide is nearly flawless. I'm willing to give them the benefit for the doubt.

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Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#1360 - 2013-05-22 11:01:08 UTC
To mare wrote:
give up people...

maybe in 5-6 months CCP will announce they have great plans for the tempest and the ship will get an additional 500 pg (see rifter balance).


Also, at first I thought the rifter was outclassed when the new changes went live, but I've been playing with it recently and the rifter is still really good. Honestly, try it with an AAR. The only t1 ship that benefits more is the incursus. AAR rifters are god tier cause it gets the tank of an armor rifter without compromising on speed.

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