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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#1041 - 2013-05-08 06:49:52 UTC
Well technically your deep fall off version still falls into the long distance category so we'll go with that.

Regardless though, the new changes bring other ships into a more favorable role at the very least I wish they'd have added a 6th mid slot. The TE nerf is going to hurt kiting ships for sure, not just auto cannons but all turrets. I honestly don't feel that tracking enhancers need the nerf, there is a counter to ships with really good tracking. Hurting the potential of all ships based on what only a handful of ships can do is silly. I hope they reconsider this.
Emily Jean McKenna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1042 - 2013-05-08 06:53:29 UTC
They wont reconsider it. They have stopped looking at all the threads for these upcoming changes.

Your right, the TE nerf will kill alot of minmatar setups. Vaga and Temp right off my head.

They now want you to armor tank your tempest so enjoy....

Incarna rebellion is the only answer. CCP forgot what it was like to be in a position to consider laying off a ton of employees because the player base rebelled against their stupid ideas.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1043 - 2013-05-08 09:15:42 UTC
I highly doubt no one dev is checking this thread - They'd rather be evaluating the necessity of any further changes.

Odds are though that the tempest will be changed latest again with the 1.1 update, see stabber / rifter :)

It'd be awesome if a dev could just give us a heads up wether or not adjustments are considered, and which!
Meghel
SilfMeg Mining and Transportation Co
#1044 - 2013-05-08 09:26:39 UTC
Emily Jean McKenna wrote:
They wont reconsider it. They have stopped looking at all the threads for these upcoming changes.

Your right, the TE nerf will kill alot of minmatar setups. Vaga and Temp right off my head.

They now want you to armor tank your tempest so enjoy....

Incarna rebellion is the only answer. CCP forgot what it was like to be in a position to consider laying off a ton of employees because the player base rebelled against their stupid ideas.


With all the whining, crying and insult levelled at CCP in these Battleship thread, I would not even touch these threads with a 20-foot pole covered in a huge condom.

The changes they propose appear reasonable.
The new Typhoon is great
The Maelstrom is already great and does not need changing

The Tempest is changed a bit but nothing out of the ordinary.
It might need more changing and Furtunately, we have a testserver to test everything out.

So go and test things out when it is possible and then give feedback (together with perhaps video's).
That would be much more efficient than the endless whine-threads of "CCP Hates Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar".


:)
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#1045 - 2013-05-08 12:08:09 UTC
Quote:
I highly doubt no one dev is checking this thread - They'd rather be evaluating the necessity of any further changes.

Odds are though that the tempest will be changed latest again with the 1.1 update, see stabber / rifter :)

It'd be awesome if a dev could just give us a heads up wether or not adjustments are considered, and which!


I'm sure the devs are reading this thread or at least skimming through it. I think we're just going to have to see what happens when these changes hit sisi, or rather in the tempest case, the lack of change. Even then when these changes do go on the test server, it's going to be hard to tell how good it really is and how much it is used. They won't know until after odyssey is released, so your 1.1 prediction may just be the case but we'll see.

I'm still trying to figure out why I would want to use a tempest over any other ship, post-odyssey. I can't find a good reason to use one after odyssey.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1046 - 2013-05-08 13:49:02 UTC
Altimo wrote:
Even with the higher HP values, you shouldn't be fielding one or two tempests for small gang warfare anyway. Lets be serious, The tempest is not that fast, when compared to a battlecruiser.

That is the idea of these attack battlecruisers as far as I understand it. So if the Tempest is not good for "smaller" gang warfare than what BS are currently used for then that will be a failure.

Altimo wrote:
If we are talking outlasting in fights, battlecruisers can do that just fine. Those ships can outlast a tempest easily

Ok, lets be serious now, a tornado goes down to frigates...The tornado and Tempest aren't even in the same ball park when it comes to tanking ability. And a standard battlecruiser is still vastly inferior in terms of tank, and cannot fit large guns, so again completely different.

Altimo wrote:
you can put a decent tank on them, what are you going to do with a tempest? Armor tank? there goes your speed and damage. Shield tank? There goes your MWD use and cap or any sort of ewar/sensor boosting. Regardless of what you do since your obviously not going to tank the ship. When the enemy can shoot back, the tempest won't last that much longer than a tornado, specially if you have few tempests on the field. Even then it depends on what you're shooting at. Which reduces the usefulness of having one greatly.

Yes, any ship is going to go down eventually to sustained firepower. Trying to say there is no difference is like saying there is no difference between a carrier and a super carrier because both are going to go down eventually. Also I've been suggesting in this thread that the Tempest needs a speed boost to 130m/s and also a fall off bonus. Also your forgetting that most fleets aren't going to consist simply of Tempests on their own, you will have smaller ships supporting such as logistics and others.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1047 - 2013-05-08 13:57:03 UTC
Altimo wrote:
Fleets have used them in the past for long distance engagements. Now the tempest is just worse in it's role thanks to the new changes, meaning price increase and tracking enhancer nerf.

?? There are plenty of better ships for long range sniping. The tempest doesn't even have any bonuses to increase its range. Most people I've heard use the Tempest for the dual neuts.

Emily Jean McKenna wrote:
I never flew the Tempest as a sniper ship though. I always used it as a speed, deep falloff, kiting ship.

The TE nerf changes that alot...

Exactly^
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#1048 - 2013-05-08 16:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Altimo
Quote:
Yes, any ship is going to go down eventually to sustained firepower. Trying to say there is no difference is like saying there is no difference between a carrier and a super carrier because both are going to go down eventually. Also I've been suggesting in this thread that the Tempest needs a speed boost to 130m/s and also a fall off bonus. Also your forgetting that most fleets aren't going to consist simply of Tempests on their own, you will have smaller ships supporting such as logistics and others.


the tempest has no tank to survive "Sustained firepower" just like the tornado. The super carrier and carrier comparison is pointless, those ships have a tank and require constant DPS. A Tempest and a tornado can be alpha striked because they have no tank.

Never once did I suggest that fleets would be fielding only tempests, that's way off base and it was not something I hadn't thought of before I said. "Whatever you have the tempest do, another ship can do a better job"

Quote:
Ok, lets be serious now, a tornado goes down to frigates...The tornado and Tempest aren't even in the same ball park when it comes to tanking ability. And a standard battlecruiser is still vastly inferior in terms of tank, and cannot fit large guns, so again completely different.


I beg to differ, a drake has a far superior tank to the tempest. I've seen battlecruisers tank a lot more than a tempest ever could, some of them capable of dishing out decent amounts of DPS.

Quote:

?? There are plenty of better ships for long range sniping. The tempest doesn't even have any bonuses to increase its range. Most people I've heard use the Tempest for the dual neuts.


Exactly. however if you want a battleship for neuts, you have the armageddon that way ---> so why would I want to use a tempest again?

My point is that no matter what role you set the tempest up for after odyssey, there's always going to be some ship that can do a better job. Boosting the speed to 130ms isn't going to change much, adding a fall off bonus.. Well that might help if your using it for kiting, but then you'd have to take away a bonus because we can only have 2. We'd have to do more than that, take away a damage bonus and add a 7th turret.

It's not like the Tempest can't ever be used for anything, sure it can, but whatever you do with it, theres always a ship that does a better job, want a sniper? go for an apoc, naga, rokh etc, Want to use neuts? you now have a domi or an armageddon, or a curse. And after odyssey kiting won't be that good due to TE changes. So with the tempest as it currently stands in odyssey what is it good for?

People need to stop being so afraid of change, the armageddon used to be an insane ganking ship and its now a drone/neuting boat. If they can do that to the armageddon why can't we see some drastic changes to the pest?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1049 - 2013-05-08 16:56:37 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Altimo wrote:
Quote:
I don't want to abandon the dual damage bonus. It provides decent alpha and decent dps this way. ROF only bonus would get rid of alpha, which is one of the selling qualities of Tempest.


What is the point of relying on the alpha (Even though the rof can be nice) when you can field Tornados? Just doesn't seem worth it for its bonuses alone when I look at it that way. That's because the tempest doesn't seem suitable for any other role but sniping. It probably can do close range, just not as efficiently as other ships of its class.


Tornado is for sniping. The tempest is for kiting. The difference is that the Tornado is for quick hit and run engagements, ie either get out or destroy the targets before they can react, as once they get a chance to shoot back then the tornado's paper thin armour and shield are going down even to frigates. The kiting tempest fit with either artillery or autos will outlast the enemy with a fairly decent shield and armour, good damage, and ability to hit more effectively at a longer range and the speed and agility to keep the opponent within desired range. Flown well then I imagine it will be quite a nice ship for smaller gangs along with the Typhoon.

That is how I'm looking at using the two ships now in my fleets anyway. But would just like to see some extra buffs to the Tempest which will help it in this role.



Why you keep telling this nonsense? Tornado has longer effective range and is faster than tempest. Tornado is FAR superior for kiting then tempest!!!

I think I explained the definition in the post above ^

To reiterate. Basically, the Tornado can snipe, but when the opponent starts hitting you back then the weak shield and armour means it is going down fast. Ie, a sniper hits it's targets without them getting a chance to hit back.

I differentiate that to kiting in that you are still using range as a method of mitigating your opponents damage, but not mitigating it completely. Ie the opponent is still hitting you back, but you are using your range advantage to hit your opponent back even harder. This is where the Tempest's role lies.



You are inventing definitions from thin air that do not match what people use for those terminologies. Kiting is Keepign range while moving faster than enemy to use your range advantage. Sniping usually menans extreme range where you do not need to keep mobile to keep the range. NEITHER of the ones you want to be receivign ANY meaningful damage


Temepst is TOO SLOW to kit ANYTHING! Tornado is not. Tornado is a great kite ship.. tempest is a HORRIBLE kite ship .

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1050 - 2013-05-08 17:07:48 UTC
Altimo wrote:
the tempest has no tank to survive "Sustained firepower" just like the tornado. The super carrier and carrier comparison is pointless, those ships have a tank and require constant DPS. A Tempest and a tornado can be alpha striked because they have no tank. A drake has a far superior tank to the tempest. I've seen battlecruisers tank a lot more than a tempest ever could, some of them capable of dishing out decent amounts of DPS.

Tornado

Shield - 1890
Armour - 1800
Structure - 1800

Tempest

Shield - 7000
Armour - 7300
Structure - 6800

See the difference there? Also the same thing for the drake, which again cannot fit large weapons, and so is in a completely different ball park. The only reason you can compare the tier 3 BCs is because they can match BS's with firepower. You are trying to compare standard BC's, and again, the facts prove your assertions above wrong.

Altimo wrote:
Exactly. however if you want a battleship for neuts, you have the armageddon that way ---> so why would I want to use a tempest again?

Your contradicting yourself here. Originally the armageddon was not a nuet ship, and we were talking about how the Tempest was used pre tiericide. Now after tiericide, I dont think anyone is suggesting the tempest does not need some extra buffs to remain competitive. I guess you haven't been following the thread as I laid out my proposal in detail for the Tornado and Typhoon. The role would make more sense if you had a look back at them.

Again I think people are vastly overplaying how weak the Tempest is which is making people like Naomi appear correct when we she complains of winmatar. Impartial people know that it is an exaggeration, and when we look at the facts then the story is completely different as shown in the example above.
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#1051 - 2013-05-08 17:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Altimo
All this time I have been saying that the "lack of changes" to the tempest post-odyssey are what bothers me about this ship.

What good is that HP on the tempest when it can be instantly taken down, im not talking a high number of ships either, as I've already said the ship has no tank.

Quote:
Your contradicting yourself here. Originally the armageddon was not a nuet ship, and we were talking about how the Tempest was used pre tiericide.
My complaints on the ships usefulness are post odyssey, I apologize if I haven't been 100% clear on that. I refer to how the ship is used now because in odyssey its only going to be worse. Larger price, tracking enhancer nerf. Other ships filling their roles better etc.

I look at how the ship is used now, and then you take how it is used now in to odyssey as one user said, Stagnation is bad.
By looking at how it is used in odyssey which is probably going to be the same as now I'm not seeing the point of using one.

I'm not sure how I'm overplaying the weakness of the tempest. Your example above shows numbers, but it doesn't describe the fact that the tempest has no tank and a battleship with no tank, does not last very long just like a Tornado. Sure it might have more HP, and a lot more when you look at the numbers, but look at how much damage a tornado will do with an alpha or a maelstrom, hitting at over 10k damage, a couple of those hitting a tempest, bye bye tempest. Won't take very long to shoot one down.

Just because a ship has more HP does not necessarily mean it can survive. There are other factors that contribute to the survivability of the ship. However putting that aside, we can go back and forth all day on this subject and I'd rather not.

And you're right I probably have missed your post somewhere along the lines because I'm more less responding to CCP's proposed changes and expressing my views on them.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1052 - 2013-05-08 17:41:25 UTC
Altimo wrote:

I'm not sure how I'm overplaying the weakness of the tempest. Your example above shows numbers, but it doesn't describe the fact that the tempest has no tank and a battleship with no tank, does not last very long just like a Tornado. Sure it might have more HP, and a lot more when you look at the numbers, but look at how much damage a tornado will do with an alpha or a maelstrom, hitting at over 10k damage, a couple of those hitting a tempest, bye bye tempest. Won't take very long to shoot one down.

Again I go back to the carrier and super carrier anology. Even a carrier will go down to a large enough alpha fleet if you have enough ships against it. But you can't simply write off such a large amount of extra HP and consign it as meaningless because an alpha fleet could possibly kill you in on shot.

Again, I agree with you that the Tempest does need some buffs to remain relevant. But it is not as poor as some people would suggest in this thread, but it does need some slight buffs to bring it into line. Which CCP Rise has said he will be looking at doing also.

I've dug up the Tempest proposal I made below as perhaps my viewpoint would make a little more sense with that included.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Tempest:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+8.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG, 550 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6900 (-100) / 6900 (-400) / 6800
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 (+10) / .11 (-0.1) / 101050000 / ??
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 350 (-10)

Seeing as tiers have now been removed completely from the game, why exactly should the Mael, which is much stronger EHP wise, also be able out damage the Tempest, therefore always leaving the Tempest in a poor second place. I think this paradigm is the possible cause of the Tempests current issue.

By combining bonuses and giving a 8.5% rate of fire bonus instead this is what you are looking at in terms of sustained dps when looking at projectiles taking 100% as the max.

Mael - 100%
Tornado - 100%
Tempest - 98%

So the sustained Dps of the Tempest is just below that of the Tornado and Mael. Then when you take into account the two utilities you will be doing more sustained dps over a period of time.

Now looking at alpha damage this is how it looks with again 100% as the max.

Mael - 100%
Tornado - 100%
Tempest - 75%

So clear roles are evident here now. If you want sustained dps with a mobile hull then the Tempest is now looking very attractive. If you want alpha then you want to go for the mael or the tornado.

Now the falloff bonus is included as the Tempest is an attack BS, and so kiting will be the predominant tactic, this bonus fits that role perfectly with either autos or artillery.

With a proposal along these lines you are getting clear roles for each BS. I haven't calulated where the Typhoon fits in here, but I assume it is putting out even more dps due to its relatively weaker hull as it quite rightly should do. And obviously being a missile ship there is little overlap between the projectile firing Tempest.

If any further nerfs are needed then I would drop EHP further if deemed necessary, although a modicum of EHP will be required as it is intended to kite so will still be sustaining damage despite being able to perhaps mitigate some. But perhaps with this level of dps some reduction may be needed to offset the damage.

But in essence what you will have is a very clear roles.

If you want mobile projectile based dps, then you would choose the Tempest.
If you want sniping, then you go for the Tornado.
If you want fleet ship with heavy tank, good sustained dps and alpha, but a slow hull to compensate, then you have the Mael.
If you want mobile missile based dps, then you go for the Typhoon.
[/quote]
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#1053 - 2013-05-08 17:54:56 UTC
Well it would only take two or 3 ships to alpha strike a tempest with no tank, It would take a lot more to alpha a carrier or super carrier, I think in that case we're looking at DPS, but then again I don't fight in capitals so I wouldn't really know for sure.


Quote:
Seeing as tiers have now been removed completely from the game, why exactly should the Mael, which is much stronger EHP wise, also be able out damage the Tempest, therefore always leaving the Tempest in a poor second place. I think this paradigm is the possible cause of the Tempests current issue.


Alas I humbly agree with you and this is the end result of my bickering on these changes, the tempest is "second" It was my understanding that tiericide is supposed to change situations like this, but this has not. I wouldnt be opposed to 5% ROF with 7 turrets either, and keep the 5% fall off bonus. The megathrone has 7 turrets, why can't the tempest? either way whatever the change be, the tempest should be equal to the other battleships in its own right. Meaning be as useful in whatever role it's given as other ships are in their intended roles.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1054 - 2013-05-08 21:44:20 UTC
The Maelstrom has even less flexiblity to be reduced to second rung on either alpha or turret dps, in either case, turning the Tempest into the minmatar Megathron would be foolish for too many reasons.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1055 - 2013-05-09 06:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zetak
If the navy version of the phoon will get missile focus then that will be an interesting sight. 7/5/8 slot layout is very... how should i put it...brutal. probably it will have 125mbit drone bay.

lets see:
- 5 sentries check.
- armor tank check.
- 2 bcs, 2 drone dmg ench check.
- 2 tp check,
- 1 ab check.

I still have two free med slot. what should I fit into those? drone range+ falloff modules, or a web and an additional tp?

I never used a phoon navy though. can it's cap handle the 1-2 reps without cap module? (have max cap skills) Also the third rig should be sentry rig or what?

I'm asking this for the regular phoon to. I'm asking in conjuction of the odyssey changes.

I want to maximize my dps. and with the expl velocity bonus and 2 free tp i can now do that to small targets too. without the need of smaller drones. Big smile So throw me a bone here. If I have to change from navy raven, at least I want to know my options.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#1056 - 2013-05-09 09:48:56 UTC
Zetak wrote:
If the navy version of the phoon will get missile focus then that will be an interesting sight. 7/5/8 slot layout is very... how should i put it...brutal. probably it will have 125mbit drone bay.

lets see:
- 5 sentries check.
- armor tank check.
- 2 bcs, 2 drone dmg ench check.
- 2 tp check,
- 1 ab check.

I still have two free med slot. what should I fit into those? drone range+ falloff modules, or a web and an additional tp?

I never used a phoon navy though. can it's cap handle the 1-2 reps without cap module? (have max cap skills) Also the third rig should be sentry rig or what?

I'm asking this for the regular phoon to. I'm asking in conjuction of the odyssey changes.

I want to maximize my dps. and with the expl velocity bonus and 2 free tp i can now do that to small targets too. without the need of smaller drones. Big smile So throw me a bone here. If I have to change from navy raven, at least I want to know my options.

and a 4 slot armor tank on a faction ship sound like a smart idea, also we cant have any idea on what ccp will do for faction ships since they are giving them pretty odd bonuses compared to the original version lately
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
#1057 - 2013-05-10 15:58:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Wrayeth
Hopefully we'll hear more from the devs soon regarding the Tempest. I get the feeling, however, that there's probably a lot of internal discussion and disagreement about how to bring it up to par with the other battleships, and that's delaying any announcement of what they'll be doing to boost it. Just going by player opinions this thread, there are a myriad of different ideas on what to do with the ship, often based around playstyle preference.

Personally, I'm still holding out hope for a fast damage dealer (aka glass cannon) that can either shield or armor tank, since just adding a falloff bonus would be too similar to the Tornado (which would do it better), but we'll have to see.
Implying Implications
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1058 - 2013-05-10 22:30:37 UTC
please do something about the slot layout on the tempest holy christ

hello
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1059 - 2013-05-10 23:03:25 UTC
Implying Implications wrote:
please do something about the slot layout on the tempest holy christ

Why? Adding an extra mid slot or low slots is hardly going to solve the Tempests problems. I think that is pretty evident from the number of conflicting opinions in this thread.

The Tempest needs some real buffs to its base stats, that is what going to help it. Not just playing around with a different layout and therefore destroying its current character.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1060 - 2013-05-10 23:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
I think the people who don't believe it needs a slot layout change, amongst other things, are in the minority.


And after testing the phoon on sisi, even with crap cpu, holy **** what an amazing ship to fly. The Tempest is a joke. I do a better job kitting with a domi (lol at 700 dps gardes @56km optimal)

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction