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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#561 - 2013-04-15 14:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Then Tempest can become the new ultra versatile phoon,


Buh.... err.... WTF?

How about this? -=MAKE THE TYPHOON THE ULTRA VERSATILE TYPHOON=-.

It would be less work and make more sense.


Because CCP seems set on making the Typhoon a missile ship.

It is now much easier to make the Tempest the ultra versatile ship than then Typhoon as the Tempest is already 90% the way there already.

I've been proposing all the way through this thread though that the Typhoon should have at least 200m3 drone bay, even if it doesn't have the full bandwidth for 5 heavies anymore to at least give it a modicum of its original versatility. The only other thing you can do is remove a launcher hardpoint, and perhaps and another high slot by sacrificing the medium therefore giving a 2 or 3 unbonused turrets. Dual weapon bonuses it not even worth considering as CCP is not going to do it for a T1 hull.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#562 - 2013-04-15 14:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
The more I look at other suggestions, the more I think CCP Rise has actually done a pretty good job with his current proposal for the Tempest. I remember when he first proposed the second iteration, everyone was cheering saying how good it was. Now everyone is trying to completely rework it.

Personally I like CCP Rise's current Tempest. I always said I would still like to see a few tweaks though to its speed and agility with perhaps a modest reduction in EHP. After thinking about it for a little while I would actually combine the damage bonuses and give it a decent tracking bonus. I think a tracking bonus will be much needed for how I envisage the Tempest being used.

I think something similar to this would be good. So basically you are just reducing EHP shield and balancing it between armour and shield, increasing the speed and agility to the Typhoon levels, dropping signature by -10 to just above the Typhoon levels, and most importantly combining the damage bonuses and giving the Tempest a much needed tracking bonus.

Tempest:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+12.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage
+7.5% bonus to Large Projectile tracking

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG, 550 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6900 (-100) / 6900 (-400) / 6500 (-300)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 (+10) / .11 (-0.1) / 101050000 / ??
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 350 (-10)

This way you can use the Tempest as a sort of big brother to the hurricane. It can be fit with auto's and two neuts, and then use it to orbit whilst neuting whilst mitigating some damage with a speed tank. Alternative you could fit it with a shield tank and artillery and use it to kite the enemy whilst maintaining range with your superior speed. So pretty much a similar version of what we have with the Tempest in game right now. Would basically be just a Tempest on steroids. :)
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#563 - 2013-04-15 14:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Quote:
+12.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

You must be high and drunk if you think that anything should have 9.81x 1400mm's worth of alpha.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#564 - 2013-04-15 14:32:34 UTC
peopel chersihed on the second iteraction because the first one way BEYOND HORRIBLE! The second one is at least in the general correct direction.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#565 - 2013-04-15 14:33:49 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Quote:
+12.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

You must be high and drunk if you think that would ever happen.


Do you realise that combing rate of fire bonus with the damage bonus actually gives a bonus of 56.25% overall? So by trying to combine both of them you could either go for a 10% bonus to damage which would give 50% overall, or 12.5% bonus, which give 62.5% overall. I've not seen CCP use any percentages in between.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#566 - 2013-04-15 14:39:49 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Quote:
+12.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

You must be high and drunk if you think that would ever happen.


Do you realise that combing rate of fire bonus with the damage bonus actually gives a bonus of 56.25% overall? So by trying to combine both of them you could either go for a 10% bonus to damage which would give 50% overall, or 12.5% bonus, which give 62.5% overall. I've not seen CCP use any percentages in between.

Yes, and you also give it stupidly high alpha and mostly destroy the Maelstrom as the fleet artillery platform.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#567 - 2013-04-15 14:40:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Quote:
+12.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

You must be high and drunk if you think that anything should have 9.81x 1400mm's worth of alpha.


Not really, would make a pretty nice niche for the Tempest by being able to deliver a good alpha. I mean the Tornado already offers 8 x of 1400mm alpha with an ultra light and agile hull and insanely fast lock time., the Tempest should be able to at least put out 9 x 1400mm of alpha with a bonus of 10% per level.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#568 - 2013-04-15 14:43:11 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Quote:
+12.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

You must be high and drunk if you think that would ever happen.


Do you realise that combing rate of fire bonus with the damage bonus actually gives a bonus of 56.25% overall? So by trying to combine both of them you could either go for a 10% bonus to damage which would give 50% overall, or 12.5% bonus, which give 62.5% overall. I've not seen CCP use any percentages in between.

Yes, and you also give it stupidly high alpha and mostly destroy the Maelstrom as the fleet artillery platform.



It wouldn't replace the maelstrom due to the flimsy nature of the hull. Maelstrom has a much more substantial staying power than the Tempest. People already use fleets of tier 3 BC for the fast attack alpha role which can put out 8 x worth of 1400mm alpha, why should the Tempest not be able to do this slightly better with 9 x 1400mm of alpha.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#569 - 2013-04-15 14:43:40 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Quote:
+12.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

You must be high and drunk if you think that anything should have 9.81x 1400mm's worth of alpha.


Not really, would make a pretty nice niche for the Tempest by being able to deliver a good alpha. I mean the Tornado already offers 8 x of 1400mm alpha, the Tempest should be able to at least put out 9 x 1400mm of alpha with a bonus of 10% per level.

No it shouldn't.

And with your bonus, it's more like 9.8, with a tracking bonus? High and drunk indeed. Lol

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#570 - 2013-04-15 14:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Quote:
+12.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

You must be high and drunk if you think that anything should have 9.81x 1400mm's worth of alpha.


Not really, would make a pretty nice niche for the Tempest by being able to deliver a good alpha. I mean the Tornado already offers 8 x of 1400mm alpha, the Tempest should be able to at least put out 9 x 1400mm of alpha with a bonus of 10% per level.

No it shouldn't.

And with your bonus, it's more like 9.8, with a tracking bonus? High and drunk indeed. Lol


Says the one who suggests a shield fit layout on Tempest with a weak base shield value and a sig and agility bonus which would be made useless by fitting a shield tank. :) Its ok, I don't think I need to take any advice from you on ship concepts.

Also it is interesting that you are suggesting that I am stepping on the maelstroms toes by suggesting a Tempest like this, when your proposal basically made the Tempest an inferior version of the Maelstrom as others tried suggesting to you. Sounds like you are stuck in the mindset that the Maelstrom must be the best minmatar BS. Not sure if you have realised, but that is not the purpose of tiercide.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#571 - 2013-04-15 14:52:07 UTC
That wasn't my proposal, not even close.

The tempest get's 7/6/6 slightly more grid and cpu with slightly less sig, mass and as a result, higher base speed than the current Tempest proposal. The HP has been normalised with other ATTACK SHIPS, because that's exactly what it would become.

But feel free to continue thinking that a 10% damage and tracking bonus is sane. Lol

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#572 - 2013-04-15 14:52:36 UTC
if you want to combine bonuses, I would go for a 7.5% rof , sided with a 100mbits droen bay.

That would result in almost same dps

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#573 - 2013-04-15 14:54:15 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Quote:
+12.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

You must be high and drunk if you think that anything should have 9.81x 1400mm's worth of alpha.


Not really, would make a pretty nice niche for the Tempest by being able to deliver a good alpha. I mean the Tornado already offers 8 x of 1400mm alpha, the Tempest should be able to at least put out 9 x 1400mm of alpha with a bonus of 10% per level.

No it shouldn't.

And with your bonus, it's more like 9.8, with a tracking bonus? High and drunk indeed. Lol


Says the one who suggests a shield fit layout on Tempest with a weak base shield value and a sig and agility bonus which would be made useless by fitting a shield tank. :) Its ok, I don't think I need to take any advice from you on ship concepts.

Also its ironic you are suggesting that I am stepping on the maelstroms toes by suggesting a Tempest like this, when your proposal basically made the Tempest an inferior version of the Maelstrom as others tried suggesting to you.



Shield tanking on Battleship scale does not make the sig and agility useless. You would fit an anciliary booster on a 7/6/6 tempest. The tank would nto be there to resist a full onslaught, but to repair the damage you could not mitigate with mobility.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#574 - 2013-04-15 14:55:25 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
if you want to combine bonuses, I would go for a 7.5% rof , sided with a 100mbits droen bay.

That would result in almost same dps


Yes, I was thinking of whether a rate of fire bonus would be better. 7.5% seems a little weak to me though, and I don't like the idea of giving the Tempest extra drones either. They aren't so good for kiting fits. But I guess it could work and just comes down to personal perference.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#575 - 2013-04-15 14:56:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Shield tanking on Battleship scale does not make the sig and agility useless. You would fit an anciliary booster on a 7/6/6 tempest. The tank would nto be there to resist a full onslaught, but to repair the damage you could not mitigate with mobility.


Active shield tanking is the Maelstrom speciality. If you want an projectile weaponed active shield tanking battleship then you shouldn't be choosing the Tempest.

A buffer shield tank and you might as well just go with CCP Rise's original proposal which everyone hated.

So all in all the prioritising the shield tank is a failed concept. Prioritising the armour tank makes much more sense but I still wouldn't do that either.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#576 - 2013-04-15 15:02:10 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
That wasn't my proposal, not even close.

The tempest get's 7/6/6 slightly more grid and cpu with slightly less sig, mass and as a result, higher base speed than the current Tempest proposal. The HP has been normalised with other ATTACK SHIPS, because that's exactly what it would become.

But feel free to continue thinking that a 10% damage and tracking bonus is sane. Lol


Continue to keep thinking that your Tempest proposal isn't conceptually flawed also. :) I won't bother trying to explain further why it is bad as you should have realised by now.

Also, shame that there is always someone who has to drag an interesting debate down to childish insults to try and get their point across. And usually its because they are defending a terrible idea like you are trying and failing to do in this case.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#577 - 2013-04-15 15:03:59 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Shield tanking on Battleship scale does not make the sig and agility useless. You would fit an anciliary booster on a 7/6/6 tempest. The tank would nto be there to resist a full onslaught, but to repair the damage you could not mitigate with mobility.


Active shield tanking is the Maelstrom speciality. If you want an projectile active tanking shield BS then you shouldn't be choosing the Tempest

A buffer shield tank and you might as well just go with CCP Rise's original proposal which everyone hated.



if you only classify the ship by its weapon and tank.. then you woudl be right.

But there is a huge difference. The maelstrom is HUGE and nearly immobile. The tempest is moderately small and could be made as fast as the megatron .

Those are very different roles.

If you do not want to increase temepst droen bay to compensate DPS. Just use a 8% rof bonus. Exact same DPS.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#578 - 2013-04-15 15:05:44 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Shield tanking on Battleship scale does not make the sig and agility useless. You would fit an anciliary booster on a 7/6/6 tempest. The tank would nto be there to resist a full onslaught, but to repair the damage you could not mitigate with mobility.


Active shield tanking is the Maelstrom speciality. If you want an projectile active tanking shield BS then you shouldn't be choosing the Tempest

A buffer shield tank and you might as well just go with CCP Rise's original proposal which everyone hated.



if you only classify the ship by its weapon and tank.. then you woudl be right.

But there is a huge difference. The maelstrom is HUGE and nearly immobile. The tempest is moderately small and could be made as fast as the megatron .

Those are very different roles.

If you do not want to increase temepst droen bay to compensate DPS. Just use a 8% rof bonus. Exact same DPS.

If your going with a 8% ROF, i'd suggest pairing it up with fall off, especially after the TE nerf.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#579 - 2013-04-15 15:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Shield tanking on Battleship scale does not make the sig and agility useless. You would fit an anciliary booster on a 7/6/6 tempest. The tank would nto be there to resist a full onslaught, but to repair the damage you could not mitigate with mobility.


Active shield tanking is the Maelstrom speciality. If you want an projectile active tanking shield BS then you shouldn't be choosing the Tempest

A buffer shield tank and you might as well just go with CCP Rise's original proposal which everyone hated.



if you only classify the ship by its weapon and tank.. then you woudl be right.

But there is a huge difference. The maelstrom is HUGE and nearly immobile. The tempest is moderately small and could be made as fast as the megatron .

Those are very different roles.

If you do not want to increase temepst droen bay to compensate DPS. Just use a 8% rof bonus. Exact same DPS.

If your going with a 8% ROF, i'd suggest pairing it up with fall off, especially after the TE nerf.


Looks like your finally making some sense now again.

Fall off is not as good as tracking in a lot of circumstances. On a close range speed tank fitting you will be well within your falloff with a bonus or not, where as tracking is where you will struggle big time and where you can gain an advantage over your opponent by combining your low sig and superior tracking. (this was discussed earlier in the thread)

The long range fit is perhaps where it would be useful, but then that would be better paired with a damage bonus rather than a ROF bonus which you seem to be opposed too. Also tracking would still be useful on a long range fit as artillery innately has poor tracking, and as many ships are going to be faster than the Tempest you will inevitably get situations where the Tempest's tracking ability is going to be sretched.

I'm not saying fall off would be useless, and I wouldn't be unhappy with it. But I think tracking would be much more useful and keep more to the essence of the Tempest and the minmatar way of fighting.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#580 - 2013-04-15 15:22:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Shield tanking on Battleship scale does not make the sig and agility useless. You would fit an anciliary booster on a 7/6/6 tempest. The tank would nto be there to resist a full onslaught, but to repair the damage you could not mitigate with mobility.


Active shield tanking is the Maelstrom speciality. If you want an projectile active tanking shield BS then you shouldn't be choosing the Tempest

A buffer shield tank and you might as well just go with CCP Rise's original proposal which everyone hated.



if you only classify the ship by its weapon and tank.. then you woudl be right.

But there is a huge difference. The maelstrom is HUGE and nearly immobile. The tempest is moderately small and could be made as fast as the megatron .

Those are very different roles.

If you do not want to increase temepst droen bay to compensate DPS. Just use a 8% rof bonus. Exact same DPS.

If your going with a 8% ROF, i'd suggest pairing it up with fall off, especially after the TE nerf.


Looks like your finally making some sense now again.

Fall off is not as good as tracking in a lot of circumstances. On a close range speed tank fitting you will be well within your falloff with a bonus or not, where as tracking is where you will struggle big time and where you can gain an advantage over your opponent by combining your low sig and superior tracking. (this was discussed earlier in the thread)

The long range fit is perhaps where it would be useful, but then that would be better paired with a damage bonus rather than a ROF bonus which you seem to be opposed too. Also tracking would still be useful on a long range fit as artillery innately has poor tracking, and as many ships are going to be faster than the Tempest you will inevitably get situations where the Tempest's tracking ability is going to be sretched.

I'm not saying fall off would be useless, and I wouldn't be unhappy with it. But I think tracking would be much more useful and keep more to the essence of the Tempest and the minmatar way of fighting.

The point isn't to make an OMGWTFBBQ ship with perfect bonuses. Tracking on high alpha ships should be poor, or else they'd be even more broken then they are now, fall-off has way better synergy with kiting anyway and provides a range option for fleet fit artilery that doesn't completely overshadow the tornado or maelstrom with for example, almost 10 guns of alpha!!

And I still don't think you understand the difference between a 7/6/6 tempest or mealstrom.

And no, I posted an alternative with similar bonuses suggested by someone else a few pages ago.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2885041#post2885041

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction