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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Author
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1761 - 2013-04-23 12:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
and to point out a specific example of these serious cap issues...Torp/Sentry Geddon vs Blaster Hyperion, both with a single cap booster and a single large repper, the Hyperion won because it could completely ignore the 3 heavy nuets of the Geddon. Very nice Brawler you've designed there.

Now, try it with an Abaddon. Needs dual boosters, one of them perma running, and therefor quickly runs out of booster charges, stuck dying flailing around miserably shouting out "have you seen my baseball?" Give the poor kid a helmet here!

And as the boosts on these 2 ships are supposedly putting them in the same role, yes, I feel this is a valid concern.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1762 - 2013-04-23 13:52:10 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Crash Lander wrote:

In-case it isn't clear what I'm trying to say here; I'll re-iterate it differently: Removing the cap bonus is forcing me to swap a rig that was previously free to be anything (DPS/Tracking/Range/Whatever) to a cap rig to compensate. This in an indirect trade of a bonus and probably not the intended effect.
You've given me a fixed bonus (extra tracking) and taken away my choice of a bonus in a rig. This is why cap bonuses (and cap use bonuses on Amarr ships aren't currently as useless as people think)


I.



Its intended effect is NOTHING RELATED TO PVE. The balance was made thinking on PVP (and that is correct).




Even so I am more and more thinking that the battleships should have RACE bonus. FIXED values:

Ammar Racial bonus: -33% lazors cap usage
Minmatar Racial bonus: 15% extra MWD and AB bonus
Caldari Racial bonus: 20% explosion velocity
Gallente Racial: 15% increase on web strenght

That would make verybody a bit happy and coutner the racial identity murderign that has been goigng on.

A nice idea, but as Amarr pilots have long been pointing out, why the hell should we need a special bonus just to be able to use our "guns" when the other races instead get bonuses that are actually advantagious to use in combat? Why shouldn't they have something done to their guns that would instead require them to have a special bonus on their ships to be able to use them?



because your guns are WAY more powerful on raw numbers than other races guns. Compare the raw DPS and tracking of tachyosn on unbonused ships for example a maelstrom against raw DPS of rails on same ship.


That is why, because lasers have an embedded bonus to damage and they expose the limitation on the race by fittings, while in rails and projectiels the weapons are weak unless used on ships that have bonus for them whiel being easily fittable.

its just an inversion, In fact ammar way is WAY better because at level 1 you get ALL FULL firepower.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1763 - 2013-04-23 14:02:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Kagura Nikon wrote:
...
Even so I am more and more thinking that the battleships should have RACE bonus. FIXED values:

Ammar Racial bonus: -33% lazors cap usage
Minmatar Racial bonus: 15% extra MWD and AB bonus
Caldari Racial bonus: 20% explosion velocity
Gallente Racial: 15% increase on web strenght

That would make verybody a bit happy and coutner the racial identity murderign that has been goigng on.

What about all the ships with no laser bonuses then, can hardly be considered a racial trait if it only applies to 60-70% of all ships?

Also, if you think that the Gall/Cald/Mim traits you suggest are pew specific then you have a lot to learn about care-bearing Big smile
Kagura Nikon wrote:
...its just an inversion, In fact ammar way is WAY better because at level 1 you get ALL FULL firepower.

Hypotheticals now, eh? Who's to know what a newcomer can get out of them when he first has to be able to fit them, feed them cap and help them track .. Amarr is, since you are apparently unawares, rather skill intensive even when just looking at lasers .. I personally got nowhere (almost) until practically all gunnery, engineering and mechanic skills were maxed out.

But yes, a person can leave the academy, strap on a tachyon and get better results out of the first handful of shots than comparable systems .. question is what happens after that handful, laser dps with 0 cap is not exactly stellar Big smile
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1764 - 2013-04-23 14:05:43 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
...its just an inversion, In fact ammar way is WAY better because at level 1 you get ALL FULL firepower.

Hypotheticals now, eh? Who's to know what a newcomer can get out of them when he first has to be able to fit them, feed them cap and help them track .. Amarr is, since you are apparently unawares, rather skill intensive even when just looking at lasers .. I personally got nowhere (almost) until practically all gunnery, engineering and mechanic skills were maxed out.

But yes, a person can leave the academy, strap on a tachyon and get better results out of the first handful of shots than comparable systems .. question is what happens after that handful, laser dps with 0 cap is not exactly stellar Big smile



yah yah.. I have all lasers and ammar ship trained to 5.. in 2 accounts.. while minmatar only in 1. Know why? because I do not pay attention to whinners and I am able to analyze the true power of the ship.. and I kNow how powerful amarr are


Its not hypothetical. At battleship level 1 the apocalypse have more damage than a tempest.. The battleships taht need MORE skills (on current ships as on TQ) to have max DPS are all minmatar... not amarr.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1765 - 2013-04-23 14:12:29 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
... Know why? ...

Because you are a bitter vet like me and established your Amarr characters more than three years ago, before the Winmatar buffs and saw no need to have more than one Loki alt? Big smile
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1766 - 2013-04-23 14:18:54 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
...its just an inversion, In fact ammar way is WAY better because at level 1 you get ALL FULL firepower.

Hypotheticals now, eh? Who's to know what a newcomer can get out of them when he first has to be able to fit them, feed them cap and help them track .. Amarr is, since you are apparently unawares, rather skill intensive even when just looking at lasers .. I personally got nowhere (almost) until practically all gunnery, engineering and mechanic skills were maxed out.

But yes, a person can leave the academy, strap on a tachyon and get better results out of the first handful of shots than comparable systems .. question is what happens after that handful, laser dps with 0 cap is not exactly stellar Big smile



yah yah.. I have all lasers and ammar ship trained to 5.. in 2 accounts.. while minmatar only in 1. Know why? because I do not pay attention to whinners and I am able to analyze the true power of the ship.. and I kNow how powerful amarr are


Its not hypothetical. At battleship level 1 the apocalypse have more damage than a tempest.. The battleships taht need MORE skills (on current ships as on TQ) to have max DPS are all minmatar... not amarr.

An laser ship without cap doesn't do any damage at all (except of course with drones).

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1767 - 2013-04-23 14:42:40 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
... Know why? ...

Because you are a bitter vet like me and established your Amarr characters more than three years ago, before the Winmatar buffs and saw no need to have more than one Loki alt? Big smile



Nope.. because I had trained the minmatar char way before the minmatar boost and in fact trained the ammar ones durng the so called minmatar supremacy.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1768 - 2013-04-23 14:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
...its just an inversion, In fact ammar way is WAY better because at level 1 you get ALL FULL firepower.

Hypotheticals now, eh? Who's to know what a newcomer can get out of them when he first has to be able to fit them, feed them cap and help them track .. Amarr is, since you are apparently unawares, rather skill intensive even when just looking at lasers .. I personally got nowhere (almost) until practically all gunnery, engineering and mechanic skills were maxed out.

But yes, a person can leave the academy, strap on a tachyon and get better results out of the first handful of shots than comparable systems .. question is what happens after that handful, laser dps with 0 cap is not exactly stellar Big smile



yah yah.. I have all lasers and ammar ship trained to 5.. in 2 accounts.. while minmatar only in 1. Know why? because I do not pay attention to whinners and I am able to analyze the true power of the ship.. and I kNow how powerful amarr are


Its not hypothetical. At battleship level 1 the apocalypse have more damage than a tempest.. The battleships taht need MORE skills (on current ships as on TQ) to have max DPS are all minmatar... not amarr.

An laser ship without cap doesn't do any damage at all (except of course with drones).



What is better for a noob pilot? To do some serious damage during 2 minutes.. and end the fight with 30% cap..... or feel itself useless because his damage is so low and end the fight with 100% cap? In all my years in eve online I have NEVER ever got out of cap on a ship fight (PVP) unless I was being neutralized or I was shooting at a POS or other stupid structure.

Again, I do NOT CARE ABOUT PVE, i talk on PVP focus. PVE balance is completely irrelevant. PVE is an economical activity, it doe snot need balance more than theere is need to balance the income of Radiologist doctors and garbage collectors.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1769 - 2013-04-23 15:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
Nemesis Bosseret wrote:
if u want a mini balagorn


Show me a proposed geddon fit that comes anywhere near the neuting power of a bhaalgorn. That's right, you can't because it hasn't the grid AND it doesn't have the amount bonus.


Nemesis Bosseret wrote:

and the caldari are pretty rounded on being screwed in the Battleship classes...


I think you missed the raven and the cruise changes.


Nemesis Bosseret wrote:

my thoughs on this.. One strong tank/ one strong damage dealer/ one throw away cheap BS for pvp purposes ie geddon, mega, raven, tempest are ur primary pvp BS and are already in heavy fleet usage....... Apocs, Rokh, hyperion, maelstrom are ur supplemental fleet used for there gun range aka sniping... hyperion not so much.. abaddon is a heavy pvp ship/ pve ship all around.... Domi... with new changes applied to eve are pretty useless.... primary fits are a neuting domi but rarely see them use there drones, scorpion.... falcon on crack...... Phoon... yeah interesting specialized ship that really id leave alone too.... Really the only things that should be looked at or improved is the Hyperion which actually really sucks... the raven needs some love because if ur trying to run missions with it your going to die sooner or later which is kinda sad. give them something a little tougher... besides thoughs two..... yeah... dont touch them


Good god man, you need to go back to the first page and actually look at ****.

The hype looks badass on paper now. The raven got another mid.

neut domi that rarely uses drones lol
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1770 - 2013-04-23 15:17:33 UTC
The proposed geddon is going to make for some really interesting fleet doctrines.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1771 - 2013-04-23 15:20:00 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
and to point out a specific example of these serious cap issues...Torp/Sentry Geddon vs Blaster Hyperion, both with a single cap booster and a single large repper, the Hyperion won because it could completely ignore the 3 heavy nuets of the Geddon. Very nice Brawler you've designed there.

Now, try it with an Abaddon. Needs dual boosters, one of them perma running, and therefor quickly runs out of booster charges, stuck dying flailing around miserably shouting out "have you seen my baseball?" Give the poor kid a helmet here!

And as the boosts on these 2 ships are supposedly putting them in the same role, yes, I feel this is a valid concern.


I believe the role of the new geddon is anti-support, though it can be a competent brawler that has a modicum of flexibility due to the nature of droneboats. Also, flexible damage type for pve.

It may not be a top contender at everything, but at least after the changes it isn't yet another laser boat.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#1772 - 2013-04-23 15:20:15 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
The hype looks badass on paper now. The raven got another mid.


Hyperion is and will always be wanna be anime spaceship. Caldari ship look crap but hyperion is crap^2 :p And it does not look like gallentean ship at all and could be rather turned into Jove BS that no one sees ever :p
Pathogen Ascention
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1773 - 2013-04-23 15:26:47 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
"CCP has given us the proverbial "finger. I really only say this because of the absolute lack of response in this thread", F U C K O F F go look at the the amount of responses in the Caldari and Minmatar threads.


I looked at them, and there's a serious lack of player response in them compared to this thread. Not saying they are any less valid, but my point is the amount of attention related to player response. Can your attitude, this is a discussion.


For the response of different dishes instead of flavors, I see what you mean, I just don't agree with it as far as Amarr goes. Yes, in other places it was a good thing, but I still disagree on this one area (BSs). I'd prefer to see a new hull get rolled out to address this than repurpose the ships we currently have.

I'm on board with the idea that the ships that are receiving a resist nerf should have a bonus elsewhere to make up for the loss of survivability. More applied damage via adjusted hull damage bonuses, lock times, or even tracking might work. I honestly don't know, but something has to balance it.

The comparison with other races guns vs power stuff, I agree we do get some benefits from running a laser boat, but at this stage of the game the balance is skewed because of the ridiculous power issues. I don't want us to be OP, but there is an issue here thanks to all of the factors that need to be considered when running lasers.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1774 - 2013-04-23 15:27:32 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The proposed geddon is going to make for some really interesting fleet doctrines.


I always wanted an amarr dominix....but I wish it had been the abaddon instead. = /

With a khanid paintjob...a torp-spewing droneboat of ultimate win.

I think I need some alone time now.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1775 - 2013-04-23 15:30:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The proposed geddon is going to make for some really interesting fleet doctrines.


It'll be a cross-trained player's dream, to be sure. It's going to be hell on wheels for tank ability/ewar potential.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1776 - 2013-04-23 16:53:42 UTC
I'm not sure that there is anything left to say guys. If CCP can't see point we're trying to make then its a lost cause anyway.
I want to thank all the people in this thread for the testing and theorycrafting. I hope things eventually get better for the Amarr ships.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1777 - 2013-04-23 17:15:26 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The proposed geddon is going to make for some really interesting fleet doctrines.

I really won't be surprised if it gets nerfed. Currently it's looking a little overpowered.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1778 - 2013-04-23 18:33:24 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Crash Lander wrote:

In-case it isn't clear what I'm trying to say here; I'll re-iterate it differently: Removing the cap bonus is forcing me to swap a rig that was previously free to be anything (DPS/Tracking/Range/Whatever) to a cap rig to compensate. This in an indirect trade of a bonus and probably not the intended effect.
You've given me a fixed bonus (extra tracking) and taken away my choice of a bonus in a rig. This is why cap bonuses (and cap use bonuses on Amarr ships aren't currently as useless as people think)


I.



Its intended effect is NOTHING RELATED TO PVE. The balance was made thinking on PVP (and that is correct).




Even so I am more and more thinking that the battleships should have RACE bonus. FIXED values:

Ammar Racial bonus: -33% lazors cap usage
Minmatar Racial bonus: 15% extra MWD and AB bonus
Caldari Racial bonus: 20% explosion velocity
Gallente Racial: 15% increase on web strenght

That would make verybody a bit happy and coutner the racial identity murderign that has been goigng on.

A nice idea, but as Amarr pilots have long been pointing out, why the hell should we need a special bonus just to be able to use our "guns" when the other races instead get bonuses that are actually advantagious to use in combat? Why shouldn't they have something done to their guns that would instead require them to have a special bonus on their ships to be able to use them?



because your guns are WAY more powerful on raw numbers than other races guns. Compare the raw DPS and tracking of tachyosn on unbonused ships for example a maelstrom against raw DPS of rails on same ship.


That is why, because lasers have an embedded bonus to damage and they expose the limitation on the race by fittings, while in rails and projectiels the weapons are weak unless used on ships that have bonus for them whiel being easily fittable.

its just an inversion, In fact ammar way is WAY better because at level 1 you get ALL FULL firepower.

But that isn't an accurate comparison, since Artillery were always meant to be low DPS, huge Alpha, & abysmal tracking.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1779 - 2013-04-23 18:43:14 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Again, I do NOT CARE ABOUT PVE, i talk on PVP focus. PVE balance is completely irrelevant. PVE is an economical activity, it doe snot need balance more than theere is need to balance the income of Radiologist doctors and garbage collectors.

Welcome to my block list for proving how ignorant you are.
Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1780 - 2013-04-23 23:38:36 UTC
I JUST LOVE ALL THE CHANGES!


THANKS CCP!! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!