Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I dunno how a .49 higher regen compensates for 50% of an entire rack of turrets...

Do you know where I could find the post? I thought CCP Rise said he was adjusting the cap regen just to make it possible to run level 4s, not because he felt the Apoc should be where it used to be.

Also, I'm not saying I agree that a .49 higher regen is enough, either, just like I'm not saying the laser cap need reduction is enough for even the Abaddon. But I try to keep those specifics posted on the laser thread.

Not sure what kind of schooling/behavioural adjustment/ you have had to consider applying correct math and logic to arrive at the truth to be damaging to a message and make a person look stupid, but you might want to have that looked at.
You made a well defined claim, I disproved it. Nothing more, nothing less ..

500 extra raw grid translates into 625 after skill. That is half the requirement for a MWD, all the requirement for a 1600 plate or enough for 5 whole LSEII .. hardly a pittance to be brushed aside as irrelevant.

That said, the larger base grid of Amarr hulls benefit more from the % increases of the various fitting mods so fully fit the difference in the number of said mods almost evens out .. the big problem facing Amarr now is that we do not have the slots needed to reliably/viably run (Cap) our fits once we have blown the 2-3 on cramming everything in.

PS: Yes I may be biased, no person alive can with honesty say otherwise but since it was a direct response to a specific claim and not a random rant with unsubstantiated statements any bias I may have is beside the point and does not affect the truth of the matter.

That is a possible danger and a legitimate concern, but I think you underestimate the power of tracking. Abaddons with scorch may reach a phenomenal distance but unless focused fired the speedy cruiser/interdictor/interceptor will only have its shields dropped and thus given time to retreat whereas the superior tracking of the Apocalypse will allow it remove them from the field proper.
It is a good design idea, gives it a defined role without pigeon-holing it .. it will in fact be better off than the Abaddon in that regard as that poor thing will never make it out of the Blob

So, just because it's a "Tier 3" ship, let's keep it as such and nerf other 2 even more?

CCP should really consider how stressful it is for capsuleer to train amarr ships. Currently you need V for at least 3 cap related skills to fly amarr ships good (controlled burst, energy management.. ). Also turret power consumption is much making it important for capsuleers to train fitting related skills that help with PWG and weapon system PWG use. I actually see that flying Amarr ships is actually harder to fly after these changes rather than making it easier. Also training time to increase due to energy consumption of guns will increase due loss of launcher slots also PWG need (at least for low skill levels that were/are forced to fit cruise launcher with beams).

Importance of PWG and Cap skills are risen. Yes it will be easier to get DPS with lasers. This means BS ships are more vulnerable for TD and cap neut.

Also changes for geddon seem not very good for me in sense it seems to get OP in PVP, its cheap hull and we will for sure get to see them soon in low / null camps. Its too different for amarr ship line and drones should have been left mostly for gallente.I had rather seen geddon as laser / missile / neut boat that had drone bay for medium drones, rather been Bhaalgorn at Bhaalgorn place and mod bhaalgorn to be the drone version since its pirate hull that should combine different faction technologies.

These changes means that those that liked to have launcher instead of 8th turret get to suffer. The skillpoints we have invested into cruisers / launcher are useless after the change.

I am not fan of odyssey changes, CCP seem to care only about meta game. Caldari gets buffs and it is simply made more difficult for players to start the game because skill level V importance is just emphasized. Consider if people today have 2-3months of patience to train BS while they are blowing their ships up.

I had already few friends trying the game but they turned away mainly because my skill level made too big difference and they felt they would never gain up to my level.

Odyssey is about many changes. For my personal taste for my skills and enjoyment for the game worse. It will also make at least amarr specific capsuleers training time longer. Due to increased PWG and cap use through 8th forced turret. It will make it harder for new players to find enjoyment of the game.

What amarr ships need:

• optional launcher slots similar to minmatar: this gives amarr ships much needed flexibility with cap, PWG and damage type
• less drones: drones are quite good but the reality is that many many people dislike this weapon system because the drone UI is crap, drones are dumb, it takes eternity for drones to apply damage, drones get destroyed and are quite costly
• more PVE flexibility: now tengu/drake/cane are commonly prefered platforms in low sec pve because of their imba range, high damage, and good tank, and good speed
• faster ability to make level IV missions semisafe: cap use and turret tracking vulnerability make amarr ship very vulnerable for PVE early on. Also armor tank is difficult to balance in pve so that its enough.

Amarr ships change into something I do not want to fly. I would like respec when odyssey hits.

I agree entirely, giving the Apoc a tracking bonus is effing awesome, it creates a situation where two of the three Amarr BS can murderously put down smaller ships. The Apoc by being able to nail them with it's guns, and the Geddon by neuting them out within a potential 40km range. But this is pvp.

On the pve end of things, it does us little good to be able to pop rat frigates with an apoc if it can't fire more than thirty times in a row (sans cap injects). Because guess what, most L4s require you to fire a good bit more 30 times. It's actually 32 if my napkin math is right, but I don't have the cycle times for Mega Pulse in front of me right now.

Now, why is this a problem? Several reasons. First and foremost is, no other race has this problem in L4s. Their battle clock is based on their cargo holds, not their capacitor. Disparity of this significance is frankly insulting, and makes no logical sense.

Secondly because, in order to avoid this, our only solution is to severely gimp our fits with cap injectors and boosters (by severely, I mean dedicate most of our mid slots to this, pretty much all cap and one prop mod). Once again, no other race has such a "slot tax". This is further exacerbated by Amarr already having a slot tax leveled against them by our rather unreasonable fitting requirements for our guns. If there is such a thing as double-gimp, we are it.

Thirdly because the cap issues create an unreasonable barrier for entry to new players(characters) wanting to fly Amarr ships. I often have even found myself telling players that to fly most Amarr ships, and definitely to fly anything big, that without skills V and T2 guns, they are just meat. A low SP player is better off in literally anything but an Amarr ship. There is no reason for this, everyone who has tried to argue it against me has had their arguments boil down to "someone has to be last place".

Now, here is another point of discussion I would like to have considered. Of the two fitting stats, is PG just plain more valuable than CPU? In which case, being tight on PG is an inherent disadvantage? It seems to me the answer is yes, but I must admit my own perspective on that is pretty Amarr oriented. What does everyone else think?

Minmatar are perfectly fine without armor tank trained. I have flown lot all minmatar BS:ses and all of them shield fit due shield tank is simply easier to reach than armor. In PVE minmatar are stupid to use armor anyway because most of the damage you get to deal with is kinetic and explosive == armor sucks. Also shield tank gives more damage output compared to armor.

I also have not really needed missile systems with minny BS:ses since tempest kicks ass with artys. I actually use the launcher slots to fit rapid standard missile launchers to gain edge over frigates to drop them quick with drones. I have never had problem with minnies having just turret and shield trained so I find this comment really void.

The fact that actually gives minmatar ability to choose between armor or shield and damage type make them very flexible and good in PVE and PVP environment. You should be able to fly against any npc mob type since you can tank against any type of damage and cause very wide variety of damage.

Amarr ships have higher Ex/Ki resistance, than most other ships. Especially T2 variants. It's especially stupid easy to omnitank Amarr T2. As well as Minmatar T2. Seems like a draw for me.
Lasers are more powerful of a weapon, than most of other weapon in the game. Though, fitting is a concern. As well as cap use. The difference is the alpha strike. Which Amarr don't have. And what makes Minmatar more attractive, in general.
To sum it up, Amarr is not supposed to be flexible in first place. They are supposed to be competitive. Which is true for all races. And which needs attention. Not the spherical versatility in the vacuum.

Read: "for an uneducated pilot".

This topic is about t1 hulls. I only brought generic aspect to show that changed that are planned for Amarr make them simply worse and vulnerable. Yes you get more turret damage but that I do not want.