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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1561 - 2013-04-18 21:59:21 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You clearly shows how biased youa re and how you do not care for balance but for your preferred toys. Peopel liike you are the reason why we usually cannot get the develoipers to listen to the good ideas and argument, because people acting like you are just make worthles reading these forums!

QFT.

No matter amarr are the best in a lot of significant areas of the game, they need a RCU to fit mega beams and tachyon, and that's unfair ! Untolerable !
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#1562 - 2013-04-18 23:05:54 UTC
Hulasikaly Wada wrote:
Just kidding.....but !!!!!!

Cap stable with 2 +3% cap implants with 1 repper OR mwd off

( Yes, cap stable 1 LAR + MWD perma on )

[Apocalypse, new LOL way]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Large Armor Repairer II

Republic Fleet 100MN Microwarpdrive
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5


810 and more dps with comparable traking as heavy pulse lasers

Still able to pop frigates at 50km with t1 dps ammo

Perma 1000+ m/s .... to speed tank and to close range to apply more dps...

The Apoc have already the best cap, no need more
As already pointed, problems with cap and laser in in base cap use on cap UNbonused hulls
Leaving all laser cap bonus have to come in a combo on a total revision on those ( a middle 30-40% can work, some kind plus - some kind less ) , even with the proposed ( pretty welcomed ) change on cap use , stuff like conflagrations and tachyons still usable only on 3 ADVANCED ships ( those with 4 guns / +100% dmg = 8 guns with 50% cap reduction PLUS utility slots )


Hula



Cap stable whilst fitting the guns of my enemy, it's an abomination. Now try it again with a full rack of tachyons or mega pulse the answer to the problem should not be fit capless guns...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1563 - 2013-04-18 23:18:27 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
Abaddon... 1% armor resist per level...

I try to remain fairly constructive generally, but seriously what a load of bull. Remove the bonus entirely if your going to give us 5% for lvl5, give us something remotely worth having please.


They're REMOVING 1% from the resist bonus. That leaves 4%. Per level. Which is 20% at Lv5. Which is still really worth having.

Which means 25% more EHP.
Whereas the bonus before at 5% per level meant 33% more EHP.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1564 - 2013-04-18 23:19:12 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
No matter amarr are the best in a lot of significant areas of the game, they need a RCU to fit mega beams and tachyon, and that's unfair ! Untolerable !

WTF? What game are you even playing? It certainly isn't EVE Online.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#1565 - 2013-04-18 23:29:43 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
My post from "Large Energy Turrets" section. I think it is just as relevant here:

I'm pretty much a noob who recently teched into Amarr cruisers. I bought an omen (basic tier 1 cruiser) and 5 medium beam laser turrets. I could not fit the turrets without occupying pretty much every single low slot with a module to increase the powergrid.

A week or so later I bought a drake, never having flown anything but amarr. I had to spend a few hours teching heavy missle launchers and shield extenders and what not (again, never flew anything but Amarr). To my great surprise, I could fit full racks of heavy missle launchers, and also heavy assault missle launchers, and I could occupy all mids with shield extenders and shield hardeners. I could even occupy all lows with overdrive injectors and damage resistance modules, plus added 2 rig slots. No powergrid or capacitor enhancement was necessary.

So I graduated myself up to a battlecruiser of a race I had never flown, and even had to tech basic things like launchers and shield extenders just to fit the thing, and not only ended up with something that is far tougher and dishes out far more dps, but something that I can actually fly much better as well.

I can't even fly cap stable Amarr frigs, much less cruisers. But this Caldari ship is not only cap stable, it is better in every other way (it's even faster and more agile).

Anyone see anything wrong with this?

Amarr ships use up way too much grid and cap.


Whilst I agree with your conclusions you need to be aware that you are comparing cruisers and battlecruisers, a better comparison would have been an omen and caracal, battlecruisers are obviously going to be more capable because they have more power grid, cpu and slots than a cruisr. However i do agree with the thrust of your argument.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1566 - 2013-04-18 23:53:08 UTC
So, let's all agree to click the Hide Post option on the trolls, and get back to the issues at hand... the Abaddon and the Apoc need more cap love. Realistically, there is no reason to not do so on the hull, at least to a small amount, and then the rest can be done with a cap recharger buff which realistically might have some slight effect on a few solo/very small gang pvp, but overwhelmingly will only aid with pve fits.

The other issue being, of course, how the Abaddon realistically has no need of this resist boost nerf, but if it must be put through, then it should gain a buff to it's armor HP. Or at the least it's PG so it can make up for it by fitting another plate.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1567 - 2013-04-19 00:06:42 UTC
I don't really think the Abaddon needs to be changed. The resist bonus nerf isn't really THAT big of a deal for the Abaddon, and its cap is better than it was before with the changes to lasers.

But yes, the Apoc needs some serious help.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1568 - 2013-04-19 00:16:38 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I don't really think the Abaddon needs to be changed. The resist bonus nerf isn't really THAT big of a deal for the Abaddon, and its cap is better than it was before with the changes to lasers.

But yes, the Apoc needs some serious help.

How is it the Apoc needs more such help then the Abaddon, when thanks to someone's math earlier, CCP Rise (who I'm sure first confirmed it is correct) increased the cap regen on the Apoc to what it needs to be to balance it for the loss of the hull bonus?

And no, I don't want this to devolve into "my epeen is bigger then yours" I have up to this point deliberately kept to the stance of proposing changes and commenting that work needs to be done to all relevant hulls because that is the proper course, otherwise we might as well go out and join the monkeys in flinging feces around.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1569 - 2013-04-19 00:20:54 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I don't really think the Abaddon needs to be changed. The resist bonus nerf isn't really THAT big of a deal for the Abaddon, and its cap is better than it was before with the changes to lasers.

But yes, the Apoc needs some serious help.

How is it the Apoc needs more such help then the Abaddon, when thanks to someone's math earlier, CCP Rise (who I'm sure first confirmed it is correct) increased the cap regen on the Apoc to what it needs to be to balance it for the loss of the hull bonus?

And no, I don't want this to devolve into "my epeen is bigger then yours" I have up to this point deliberately kept to the stance of proposing changes and commenting that work needs to be done to all relevant hulls because that is the proper course, otherwise we might as well go out and join the monkeys in flinging ***** around.


I don't fling. I throw. Accurately.

No, it is obvious that some (like myself) are more focused on their favorite hulls (the armageddon) than the others. I feel for CCP in trying to sort the complaints centered on balance, from the complaints centered on MY balance.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1570 - 2013-04-19 00:23:39 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
So, let's all agree to click the Hide Post option on the trolls, and get back to the issues at hand... the Abaddon and the Apoc need more cap love. Realistically, there is no reason to not do so on the hull, at least to a small amount, and then the rest can be done with a cap recharger buff which realistically might have some slight effect on a few solo/very small gang pvp, but overwhelmingly will only aid with pve fits.

The other issue being, of course, how the Abaddon realistically has no need of this resist boost nerf, but if it must be put through, then it should gain a buff to it's armor HP. Or at the least it's PG so it can make up for it by fitting another plate.


The messed up thing IMO, is that the Armageddon is still in the best shape cap-wise, which makes such little sense I can only assume it's an oversight.

Here are my thoughts on buffing our capacitor use overall. This can only lead to improvement in our pve situation. Putting us on par with every other race is both fair and just, and long overdue. Pvp wise, it has little to no effect on large scale fleet battles, because ships die under concentrated fire, and quickly at that, or they get reps and the fight continues.

In small scale pvp I can see us gaining a slight advantage of becoming less (insanely) vulnerable to neuts as we previously were. But honestly, this is entirely justified, we would still be able to be neuted out more easily, and to greater effect than other races, but not to the degree that we are at present.

That's the only real ramifications of finally fixing this issue.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Emily Jean McKenna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1571 - 2013-04-19 00:34:20 UTC
Too bad... I liked the Armageddon, now not so much.
Cougar Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1572 - 2013-04-19 00:39:03 UTC
AspiB'elt wrote:
the problem is more in the fitting armor versus shield
Large shield Extender II pwg 124 Cpu 46

1600 Reinforced T2 pwg 575 cpu 33

You cant compare 1600 plates with LSEs. If you want to compare them use 800mm that give you 2400 Armorpoints compared to the 2600 Shieldpoints from the LSE.

pg 230 cpu 28

Nearly double the grid and nearly half the cpu. Doesnt look that far out of line.

That said i agree with the overall sentiment that the Amarrships are a bit shaftet Grid and capwise. While their numbers look great at a first glance the huge consumption of lasers make more then up for it.
Asmodai Xodai
#1573 - 2013-04-19 00:47:30 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

Whilst I agree with your conclusions you need to be aware that you are comparing cruisers and battlecruisers, a better comparison would have been an omen and caracal, battlecruisers are obviously going to be more capable because they have more power grid, cpu and slots than a cruisr. However i do agree with the thrust of your argument.


Thanks for agreeing with me. But I do think my comparison of cruiser and battlecruiser here is spot on. Wny? Because, intuitively speaking, difficulty to fit and fly a ship should go UP as you go up the ship tree, not DOWN, right?

Think about it. Frigates are the first ships noobs get into. They aren't particularly difficult to fit or fly, otherwise noobs wouldn't be flying. However, noobs can't fly Titans. This seems to be a correct mechanic.

Now, I could fit and fly a caldari battlecruiser better than I could fit and fly an amarr omen, and I've actually trained some skills in amarr.

Now do you get my comparison?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1574 - 2013-04-19 01:02:31 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I don't really think the Abaddon needs to be changed. The resist bonus nerf isn't really THAT big of a deal for the Abaddon, and its cap is better than it was before with the changes to lasers.

But yes, the Apoc needs some serious help.

How is it the Apoc needs more such help then the Abaddon, when thanks to someone's math earlier, CCP Rise (who I'm sure first confirmed it is correct) increased the cap regen on the Apoc to what it needs to be to balance it for the loss of the hull bonus?

And no, I don't want this to devolve into "my epeen is bigger then yours" I have up to this point deliberately kept to the stance of proposing changes and commenting that work needs to be done to all relevant hulls because that is the proper course, otherwise we might as well go out and join the monkeys in flinging ***** around.

Because the Abaddon is already getting a cap boost since all of its weapons are getting a cap boost. It's not much of one, granted, but it's still a boost.
In addition the nerf to the hull bonus is the same as every other ship and subsystem with a hull bonus is getting. It may be a crappy nerf, but it's being applied more or less equally.

The Abaddon as it stands is a fine ship.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1575 - 2013-04-19 02:48:02 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I don't really think the Abaddon needs to be changed. The resist bonus nerf isn't really THAT big of a deal for the Abaddon, and its cap is better than it was before with the changes to lasers.

But yes, the Apoc needs some serious help.

How is it the Apoc needs more such help then the Abaddon, when thanks to someone's math earlier, CCP Rise (who I'm sure first confirmed it is correct) increased the cap regen on the Apoc to what it needs to be to balance it for the loss of the hull bonus?

And no, I don't want this to devolve into "my epeen is bigger then yours" I have up to this point deliberately kept to the stance of proposing changes and commenting that work needs to be done to all relevant hulls because that is the proper course, otherwise we might as well go out and join the monkeys in flinging ***** around.

Because the Abaddon is already getting a cap boost since all of its weapons are getting a cap boost. It's not much of one, granted, but it's still a boost.
In addition the nerf to the hull bonus is the same as every other ship and subsystem with a hull bonus is getting. It may be a crappy nerf, but it's being applied more or less equally.

The Abaddon as it stands is a fine ship.

Aye, and yet by the new overall numbers, the Apoc should end up recieving the same effective 'cap boost' as the Abaddon... I'm simply arguing that neither goes far enough.
As for the resist nerf, again, I'm not arguing that any amarr ship should be left out of it if the rest are still nerfed, I'm arguing that the nerf itself is wrong.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1576 - 2013-04-19 02:51:54 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:

Aye, and yet by the new overall numbers, the Apoc should end up recieving the same effective 'cap boost' as the Abaddon... I'm simply arguing that neither goes far enough.
As for the resist nerf, again, I'm not arguing that any amarr ship should be left out of it if the rest are still nerfed, I'm arguing that the nerf itself is wrong.


You missed the part where the Apoc used to have 50% cap reduction use from lasers due to the buff- in that sense, the Apoc is worse off than the Abaddon, even after these laser changes.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1577 - 2013-04-19 02:54:00 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:

Aye, and yet by the new overall numbers, the Apoc should end up recieving the same effective 'cap boost' as the Abaddon... I'm simply arguing that neither goes far enough.
As for the resist nerf, again, I'm not arguing that any amarr ship should be left out of it if the rest are still nerfed, I'm arguing that the nerf itself is wrong.


You missed the part where the Apoc used to have 50% cap reduction use from lasers due to the buff- in that sense, the Apoc is worse off than the Abaddon, even after these laser changes.

No, I haven't. What you've missed is where someone pointed out that the Apoc needed a 0.49 higher regen to counterbalance the loss of that hull boost and then CCP Rise went back and added that much more cap regen to the hull.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1578 - 2013-04-19 02:55:12 UTC
And back to the subject of the Abaddon (and all other hulls with this) losing some of it's resist bonus... I will refer you to my just posted suggestion to fix the interelation of RR in regards to hull resists as posted on that thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2902674#post2902674
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1579 - 2013-04-19 03:01:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
And for what I like to think is some good information about the cap issues (and relates my own opinion that the Apoc is actually not balanced enough for the loss of it's hull cap bonus) I refer to a post of mine in the L Laser thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2897298#post2897298
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1580 - 2013-04-19 03:13:20 UTC
What are we gonna do with all that extra cap on the geddon now?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?