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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1481 - 2013-04-17 23:50:29 UTC
Ruze wrote:
As someone who's trying to view opinions here, are you saying that there is no imbalance between beams and their use on the new ships, and that if we were to make them use less cap or have lower fitting requirements, this would somehow unbalance the relationship between Amarr battleships and Gallente battleships?
Exactly, but I answered more comprehensively in the laser turret thread.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1482 - 2013-04-17 23:57:19 UTC
Ristlin Wakefield wrote:


Isn't it 10% per gun? I think that's significant cap reduction.

That still just equates to a 10% hull bonus, as it applies equally to however many turrets you fit. The apoc at BS V had a 50% total reduction. However, someone earlier did do the math and came up with the number by which the Apoc essentially lost for cap regen needed to offset that, and CCP Rise did indeed change the cap regen on the hull to match that number after double checking it. So that, in essense, the new Apoc will have with the new pulse turrets 10% less cap draw.

The concern with all this, obviously, isn't for PvP. any PvP boat that wants cap uses boosters.

The concern is with all those that in one way or another farm rats (isk, standings, LP, reason why they do the farming doesn't matter), as obviously extended cap life is a requirement for any ship at a minimum to sustain tank.

But only Amarr and Gallente (despite the various racial BS having similar cap recharge) have to try to actively tank for PvE, but also run weapons that draw a lot of cap. (Yes, Hybrids use less cap per cycle, however, they do cycle faster).

I think what CCP should consider, as I believe I've stated previously, is perhaps giving the Cap Recharger a sweep with the "rebalancing" broom. This mod is, obviously, practically never used in PvP, since nuets would still counter it effectively, and it provides no worthwhile protection from them (unlike cap batteries, which while providing worthy protection from nuets, still provide some cap regen, the combination of which makes them a notable option for either PvP or PvE), and is thus pretty much entirely restricted to PvE use.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1483 - 2013-04-18 00:01:26 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Ristlin Wakefield wrote:


Isn't it 10% per gun? I think that's significant cap reduction.

That still just equates to a 10% hull bonus, as it applies equally to however many turrets you fit. The apoc at BS V had a 50% total reduction. However, someone earlier did do the math and came up with the number by which the Apoc essentially lost for cap regen needed to offset that, and CCP Rise did indeed change the cap regen on the hull to match that number after double checking it. So that, in essense, the new Apoc will have with the new pulse turrets 10% less cap draw.

The concern with all this, obviously, isn't for PvP. any PvP boat that wants cap uses boosters.

The concern is with all those that in one way or another farm rats (isk, standings, LP, reason why they do the farming doesn't matter), as obviously extended cap life is a requirement for any ship at a minimum to sustain tank.

But only Amarr and Gallente (despite the various racial BS having similar cap recharge) have to try to actively tank for PvE, but also run weapons that draw a lot of cap. (Yes, Hybrids use less cap per cycle, however, they do cycle faster).

I think what CCP should consider, as I believe I've stated previously, is perhaps giving the Cap Recharger a sweep with the "rebalancing" broom. This mod is, obviously, practically never used in PvP, since nuets would still counter it effectively, and it provides no worthwhile protection from them (unlike cap batteries, which while providing worthy protection from nuets, still provide some cap regen, the combination of which makes them a notable option for either PvP or PvE), and is thus pretty much entirely restricted to PvE use.


I kinda like this. Boost the bonus but the stacking penalty as well. Give Cap Rechargers a side benefit of 'resisting' neutralizers, but only a small percentage amount.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1484 - 2013-04-18 00:03:32 UTC
Regolis wrote:
Abaddon
Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6375 / 1250s / 5.1
Apocalypse
Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 7000 / 1002s / 6.99
Armageddon
Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6200 / 1087s / 5.7

Something I only just noticed.... why does the Geddon, which no longer uses lasers but nuet/nos, have a higher cap regen then the Abaddon? CCP Rise, here I've been back-handedly offering reasonable logic for what your doing, and you sneak this in on me?

Fix the Abaddon's cap, man!
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1485 - 2013-04-18 00:05:17 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Ristlin Wakefield wrote:


Isn't it 10% per gun? I think that's significant cap reduction.

That still just equates to a 10% hull bonus, as it applies equally to however many turrets you fit. The apoc at BS V had a 50% total reduction. However, someone earlier did do the math and came up with the number by which the Apoc essentially lost for cap regen needed to offset that, and CCP Rise did indeed change the cap regen on the hull to match that number after double checking it. So that, in essense, the new Apoc will have with the new pulse turrets 10% less cap draw.

The concern with all this, obviously, isn't for PvP. any PvP boat that wants cap uses boosters.

The concern is with all those that in one way or another farm rats (isk, standings, LP, reason why they do the farming doesn't matter), as obviously extended cap life is a requirement for any ship at a minimum to sustain tank.

But only Amarr and Gallente (despite the various racial BS having similar cap recharge) have to try to actively tank for PvE, but also run weapons that draw a lot of cap. (Yes, Hybrids use less cap per cycle, however, they do cycle faster).

I think what CCP should consider, as I believe I've stated previously, is perhaps giving the Cap Recharger a sweep with the "rebalancing" broom. This mod is, obviously, practically never used in PvP, since nuets would still counter it effectively, and it provides no worthwhile protection from them (unlike cap batteries, which while providing worthy protection from nuets, still provide some cap regen, the combination of which makes them a notable option for either PvP or PvE), and is thus pretty much entirely restricted to PvE use.


I kinda like this. Boost the bonus but the stacking penalty as well. Give Cap Rechargers a side benefit of 'resisting' neutralizers, but only a small percentage amount.

naa, if you give them a nuet resist they're just a differently named Cap Battery. Though a small stacking penalty isn't a bad option (I don't however support implementing the current stacking penalties to it, I think they are rather severe for a mod so relatively limited).
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1486 - 2013-04-18 00:06:23 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ruze wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Well, the first step has been taken with the cap use and fittings reduction. They just can't go too far in that direction and keep lasers defacto limited to Amarr hulls.

We got a small cap regen increase on the Apoc, but perhaps that can be taken a little bit further as well. They just have to take care not to give Amarr too many unintended advantages due to that, active tanking and Nos use come to mind.

Hopefully a workable balance can be found between these two approaches, as I have to admit I absolutely hated the generic Amarr cap use reduction bonus. It really limited the capability and flexibility of the whole line of ships.


Why is it so wrong to give certain Amarr hulls a third 'cap use' bonus in that direction? This keeps lasers on their intended hulls, this is specific to certain ships which would be assigned as pure laser boats, and it keeps us from manipulating a higher cap regen for other nefarious purposes.

The limitation, you mention, was because it took the place of other bonuses, because for some reason it was doctrine that if we got a cap use reduction, that was all the bonus we needed. If it was a generic addition, however, much as a 99% reduction to powergrid for cover ops cloaks, or the like ...

Well, if Amarr got an additional bonus there would be no end to the riots demanding the same number of bonuses for all races.

This would be followed immediately thereafter by Amarr pilots complaining that one of their bonuses is taken up with that annoying cap use bonus to be able to fire their guns.

A fairly vicious cycle. Smile

Lmao, Ranger, good one!
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1487 - 2013-04-18 00:12:34 UTC
Ruze wrote:

I mean, obviously, we are never at a penalty. I've been saying for years we're the superior race, but nobody believed me.

Exactly! Real Men Hull Tank! (And real women slap us down for acting the fool!)
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1488 - 2013-04-18 00:12:47 UTC
I told, you, the proposed amarr line is all wrong... There's just no end to the issues with it.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1489 - 2013-04-18 00:22:03 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

That is homogenisation : when all things are equal everywhere with different colors. That's not balance.



Mega Beam Laser 1
40 km range
16 falloff
65 GJ power usage
9.00 rate of fire
3.0 damage modifier
tracking 0.0153125 rad/sec
FITTING
55 CPU
3250 Powergrid



425mm Railgun 1
48 km range
24 km falloff
21 GJ power usage
9.56 rate of fire
3.025 damage modifier
0.01010625 rad/sec
FITTING
67 CPU
2200 Powergrid


I'm sorry .. what did you say again ? I couldn't hear you from the already obvious homogenization...
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1490 - 2013-04-18 00:25:06 UTC
Guys, move your lasers discussion into lasers thread. Pretty please. Not because I ask you, but because CCP would be reading that thread for feedbacks. That, assuming, you want your feedbacks read. (Not that they would be taken in count....)

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1491 - 2013-04-18 00:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Regolis wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

That is homogenisation : when all things are equal everywhere with different colors. That's not balance.



Mega Beam Laser 1
40 km range
16 falloff
65 GJ power usage
9.00 rate of fire
3.0 damage modifier
tracking 0.0153125 rad/sec
FITTING
55 CPU
3250 Powergrid



425mm Railgun 1
48 km range
24 km falloff
21 GJ power usage
9.56 rate of fire
3.025 damage modifier
0.01010625 rad/sec
FITTING
67 CPU
2200 Powergrid


I'm sorry .. what did you say again ? I couldn't hear you from the already obvious homogenization...



Great Scott! You mean the only advantage Laserss have, in exchange for ~50% more powergrid cost, is better tracking?! By Jove, he's cracked the case! To the carriage, we must apprehend Professor Moriarty!

Seriously though, folks. Before you, or anyone tries to compare weaponry, go have a legitimate look at their differences, and think about their respective roles on their respective ships.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1492 - 2013-04-18 00:31:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
Ruze wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
How about a conditional cap bonus such as +50% to total cap when fitting beam or pulse lasers.

That way it wil encourage laser use and make the hulls less attractive to people who want to put artillery on an amarr vessel (which makes my blood boil).

Personally I think the bonus should be 100% given the cap needs of amarr weapons, only then would we get equal skin in the game and last as long as our enemies before capping out.


Instead of gimmicky bonuses they could just fix them (not talking about slight tweaks that change nothing).


How do you mean 'fix them', because as I understand it, there are multiple problems here.

- Reduce the cap use too much on the lasers, and you setup the potential for other races to be able to use them just as well as Amarr, creating unbalance by having fits that aren't expected and planned for.

- Increase the cap recharge or total cap too much on Amarr ships, and you will see fits such as 'unlimited neut' or 'unlimited mwd' fits that break one game mechanic or another. The amount of cap a ship uses for non-weapon functionality is also important.

- Put a cap use bonus on certain ships, and you simply make lasers only really viable on THOSE ships, but also remove the option for other useful bonuses. Basically as in the past, your wasting a bonus just to let Amarr do what every other race does without a bonus.

Those are just the three 'easy' options, and most suggested.

The bold line, perhaps, we might want to give some thought too. Since when have even we amarr pilots typically fitted lasers to our own hulls that didn't have bonuses for them on them? And I don't mean just the cap reduction bonus. How many Maller boats are their on the killboards (since if your API linked even rat kills show up for loss mails) are on their? The majority are instead fitted with projectiles, because without any hull bonus to support the lasers, it made more sense to go with a weapon that didn't use cap and instead focus more heavily on the tank.

Is it so bad if the other races see our shining example in the night, and aspire to our heights? Why not allow them a glimpse into the wonder we possess?

(And, lol, sorry about waxing abit eloquently there, I was having too much fun writing this one)

P.S.
RP aspects of my post aside... perhaps we really should give some thought as to why we are so focused on other races fitting lasers to hulls that don't have bonuses from something else.

-Edit- forgot to comment on the underlined section, to wit: CCP has always loved shaking things up, and this would be especially delicious for emo tears to me.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1493 - 2013-04-18 00:32:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Great Scott! You mean the only advantage Tachyons have, in exchange for ~50% more powergrid cost, is better tracking?! By Jove, he's cracked the case! To the carriage, we must apprehend Professor Moriarty!

Seriously though, folks. Before you, or anyone tries to compare weaponry, go have a legitimate look at their differences, and think about their respective roles on their respective ships.

He didn't post tachyons.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1494 - 2013-04-18 00:37:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Great Scott! You mean the only advantage Tachyons have, in exchange for ~50% more powergrid cost, is better tracking?! By Jove, he's cracked the case! To the carriage, we must apprehend Professor Moriarty!

Seriously though, folks. Before you, or anyone tries to compare weaponry, go have a legitimate look at their differences, and think about their respective roles on their respective ships.

He didn't post tachyons.


And that is why I typically double check my own reading. I was aware of that, just from typing Tachyon so damned often I got stuck on it. I am literally laughing my own ass off.

/bow, I stand corrected. And edited.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1495 - 2013-04-18 00:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Regolis
Before I go back to laser thread .. yeah .. the only differences between the 425mm railgun and the Mega Beam are minimal..
the Tachyon is like one step above those and should go through it's own balance pass
I was just trying to clarify the argument .. if Gallante want a 500mm Railgun they should take it up in their thread
This is about Amarr getting short shafted on Capacitor when every other race can take a -20% hit on cap using a MWD
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1496 - 2013-04-18 00:45:04 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Lol, I was speaking historically, things might be changing but minnatar are still op. Anyhow everyone knows that the most nerfed race in history are the caldari.


Completely true. The Caldari are like the damn Warlocks of Eve, every time they get something settled into a useful style of play, BAM, nerf hammer.

The Amarr on the other hand suffer from neglect as much or more than actively being nerfed.

Neglect is indeed the most appropriate term I think. It used to be the case that most of the things said about the Minmatar today were true of the Amarr. They pretty much dominated every other races capabilities... so much so that they were considered the most noobie friendly race because they were simple and extremely powerful.

This of course eventually caused people to complain and changes began to happen to the other races ships and weapons, but the Amarr stayed as they were. Eventually, they were surpassed in many ways.

They need to have their racial strengths and weaknesses re-evaluated from the ground up, which will no doubt upset many, but the game would be stronger and more enjoyable for everyone if it were done.

Indeed. Amarr's original strength's were lasers and buffer tank (at least according to CCP). Well, your making our ships faster and more agile, in the process stripping them of HP. Those ships you don't do this to, you are now nerfing our hull resist bonus on. It's time to stop insisting we are a buffer tank race and start making us capable of using our pretty disco ball of death while also running a repper without being lul-fitted.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1497 - 2013-04-18 00:46:43 UTC
Quote:
The bold line, perhaps, we might want to give some thought too


My suggestion to this possibility is simple. A bit of both.

A say, 20% boost in overall cap strength, probably in recharge rate, combined with a 30% reduction of cap use, still makes lasers un-usable on non Amarr ships.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1498 - 2013-04-18 01:03:58 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
Wrong wrong wrong wrong, right about scorch.

T1 hyperion can fit 425 railguns pretty easily. You might make sacrifices, but it feels like that's one of the redeeming qualities of Railguns/blasters- they're easier to fit than the laser/artillery counterparts. Open EFT, look at fitting a hyperion with 425 rails, vs fitting an Abaddon with Tachs. Or compare the current state of 425s to Beam II's (which won't ever be used until the real laser rebalance)

I think you missed my point- the only way to tank an Abaddon right now is like a drake, because the lasers sure as hell don't leave room left over in the capacitor for anything else!

Lasers use up much more than your shield booster, unless you're fitting an X-L, which is by definition an oversized module, UNLIKE THE TACHYONS, which remain in "Large" category. If Tachyons were changed to X-L, a lot of people would stop complaining, but they're either mis-labeled, or imbalanced right now.

As for beam lasers themselves, they have competitive damage (read: worse), worse tracking, and a longer max range where the damage quickly falls off after the scorch threshold. Just to put this in perspective, Imp Navy Multifreq in Beam II's outdamages the long range scorch crystal, but the scorch crystal outreaches and out-tracks the multifreq. And it out-reaches/tracks gleam. And once you're outside scorch range, the damage falls off rather quickly, though still dealing more than rails. (note, rails have a much longer absolute range)


This thread is starting to tick me off. If we compare Amarr ships to Amarr ships, we're accused of not looking at the whole picture. If we compare Amarr ships to another race's ship, we're accused of homogenizing and attempting to make lasers capacitor free.

Just a quick note here, but anyone who puts multifreq in beams for close range deserves it when they die. Gleam while having a higher range penalty slightly out dps the multifreq, but more then make up for the lost range in actually getting a tracking speed boost.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1499 - 2013-04-18 01:12:37 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
425s have 4.8 km more base optimal and 4 km more base falloff than tachyons do.

But Tachyons can change their optimal in a finger snap, while Rails need a whole 10 seconds to reload.


And tachyons can only do EM and Thermal damage, which is naturally tanked against with all armor values. It's also part of the ONLY weapon system which is limited on the types of damage it can do.

And they require far more powergrid than their artillery counterpart.

And they use far more capacitor per second then their hybrid counterparts.



Individually, these aren't really that bad. But when you combine them on a ship that has almost the same powergrid as that artillery-fit vessals, and almost the same capacitor as those hybrid-fit vessels, with a ship class that is still running cap-intensive mods just like all the others.

The whole picture of the weapon system and it's preferred ship classes (taking in the Oracle as well) is where you see the flaw. Individual components aren't bad. The whole thing taken together is broken.

To be perfectly fair, Hybrids are restricted solely to dealing Kinetic/Thermal damage as well.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1500 - 2013-04-18 01:17:09 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Perhaps some sort of boost to Cap Rechargers? Has the advantage of not affecting PvP (the overwhelming reason CCP provides for everything they've been doing the past year), yet helping Laser and Hybrid turret users as well as armor repper users for PvE in reducing the overwhelming slot cost involved in making these ships capable of the sustained fire required for serious missioning.

Serious missioning in a T1 ship ? Seriously ?


I think we should start ignoring the obvious troll posts like this. FYI most mission runners use tech 1 ships with t2 or faction modules attached, if they can afford it after becoming uber players they tend to go for t2 or t3, but there's more t1 out there than anything else.

Quite honestly, I clicked the option to hide Bouh's posts about 2 weeks ago. Only reason I even notice he's still on the thread is everyone keeps quoting him.