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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#1441 - 2013-04-17 22:01:33 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
I wonder, when someone recall neutron blasters.


They do. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=223610&find=unread
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1442 - 2013-04-17 22:20:47 UTC
Speaking of which, do "=unread" links works for anyone? It seems to always point to first page for me.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1443 - 2013-04-17 22:22:26 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
So it's perfectly fine then that no battleship of Amarr can actually fit a full rack of these without ridiculous concessions?
Meaning that even with these benefits, nobody ever uses them? Ever?
Come on now, stop trolling. You know exactly what the problem is.

Problem is scorch, not fitting. You could divide the fitting of mega beams by 3, and still nobody would use them, because mega pulse with scorch are better up to 60km, and have better tracking. 60km being more than enough for most engagement, and here we are. You can't buff the LR dps of beams without killing railguns.

So yes, I know the problem, and that's why tachyon would be a problem if they were as easy as railguns to fit. Tachyon already are better than railguns except for fitting and cap use. Removing these drawbacks imply the obsolescence of railguns.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1444 - 2013-04-17 22:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
So it's perfectly fine then that no battleship of Amarr can actually fit a full rack of these without ridiculous concessions?
Meaning that even with these benefits, nobody ever uses them? Ever?
Come on now, stop trolling. You know exactly what the problem is.

Problem is scorch, not fitting. You could divide the fitting of mega beams by 3, and still nobody would use them, because mega pulse with scorch are better up to 60km, and have better tracking. 60km being more than enough for most engagement, and here we are. You can't buff the LR dps of beams without killing railguns.

So yes, I know the problem, and that's why tachyon would be a problem if they were as easy as railguns to fit. Tachyon already are better than railguns except for fitting and cap use. Removing these drawbacks imply the obsolescence of railguns.

Nobody's asking for a buff to beam DPS.
Besides, you're also wrong in your comparison - 425s have 4.8 km more base optimal and 4 km more base falloff than tachyons do. In addition both the Rokh and Naga have a 10% per level range bonus to large hybrid turrets. Only the Apocalypse has a range bonus, and it's 7.5% per level. Rokh/Naga with 425s and spike comes out 31 km of optimal range ahead of a Tachyon Apoc with Aurora.

Also if fights above 60 km were actually that rare, nobody would use sniper nagas or alpha fleets. But they do.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1445 - 2013-04-17 22:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Besides, you're also wrong in your comparison - 425s have 4.8 km more base optimal and 4 km more base falloff than tachyons do.

Also if fights above 60 km were actually that rare, nobody would use sniper nagas or alpha fleets. But they do.

Just look at all the stats of tachyons : 4,8km is less than 10% of their range. But they have more than 20% more dps, and 30% more tracking. That mean they are infinitely better at close range, and that range malus is offset by raw damage, making them actually better than railguns up to the end of aurora range, at between 130 and 150km ; probe range ; railguns out.

The LR Rokh and Naga are an alternative, allowed by the buff of railguns. Their long range is more of an indrance than an advantage IMO : pulse abaddon just forced them outside of the 0-60km ranges, and the high resists of the Rokh allow them to fight against Maelstroms. The doctrines are rather balanced. Easy to fit tachyon would remove this balance by removing railguns. Tachyon could even remove pulse abaddon in fact.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1446 - 2013-04-17 22:49:02 UTC
A weapon being completely useless is not balance no matter how you try to slice it. Again, stop trolling.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1447 - 2013-04-17 22:49:07 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
425s have 4.8 km more base optimal and 4 km more base falloff than tachyons do.

But Tachyons can change their optimal in a finger snap, while Rails need a whole 10 seconds to reload.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1448 - 2013-04-17 22:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Tonto Auri wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
425s have 4.8 km more base optimal and 4 km more base falloff than tachyons do.

But Tachyons can change their optimal in a finger snap, while Rails need a whole 10 seconds to reload.

No, they take 5 seconds.
This is also offset by the fact that tachyons have a longer duration than 425s do.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1449 - 2013-04-17 22:50:18 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I sense Fozzie's strong influence in this...

Fozzies contributions to the Slicer are minor, just run of the mill tweaks really. The ship itself is designed in such a way that it does kiting well but not exclusively, the Brawler fit is madly powerful if you abuse meta rigs .. 20km sphere of death basically with enough staying power to outlast anything not injected.
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Care to enlighten the rest of us? I'd sure like to know his justification for nerfing an already underused ship into obsolescence.

How does adding one of the most desirable bonuses on top of the most desirable bonus push it into obsolescence?

It will be cap unstable, but they have already opened negotiations on that front so haggle away .. going to need at least the equivalent of a T2 Elutri rig (25%) to be truly viable but hardly makes it obsolete.

What irks me the most is that they obviously want to try to revive BS sniping, but are reluctant to make the changes that could possible make it viable.
Warp-to distance need to be pushed to 200km (doubt many want probes nerfed again, too damn nice as tool now) and tier3 BCs need to take a considerable hit in performance department, suggested that their tracking be halved (they are basically Jeeps trying to use guns from a Main Battle Tank .. stabilization cannot possibly be enough!) to give the proper users of large guns the edge.

As for a counter to alpha:
There has been a growing number of suggestion for some sort of fleet defense screen type thing, so why not?
Add a chaff (term used lightly) dispenser as a high-slot module. Can only hold two or three charges and Ammo is large enough to cripple cargo space (think 800 charges). Generates a cloud centered on dispenser with a 10-15km radius lasting 30-60s during which time any ordnance (ie. affect missiles as well) targeting a ship within cloud loses 50-75% of its damage.
Increase the sacrifice (to mitigate OPness) by saying that the metal shards used to deflect incoming fire must come from the superstructure (hull) of the ship using it and take off 5% hull per activation.
Increase it further by extending the reduction to anything entering the cloud including transfers, command links, RR the works .. a nice tight cluster (everything within clouds) to avoid giving bombers a renaissance as bombs are untargeted.

A very nice idea, since the goal of Chaffe is screwing up the radar to the point that targeting fails and causes ordnance to miss, though I think extending it to everything else that's targeted is rather OP and risks it becoming used as an offensive weapon as well as a defensive one
Loki Vice
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1450 - 2013-04-17 22:51:04 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey again Amarr fans!

After watching the thread, and having a nice talk with you guys this morning, the balance team here in Reykjavik devoted some time to carefully considering this issue of cap use for Amarr battleships. The resulting change is detailed in a post that should be stickied by now. Please go check it out!

Look forward to hearing your feedback



five days later and still not a word said since this...

has CCP Kil2 Entered full on "ABANDON THREAD" mode... CCP Fozzie please save us from this baddie
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1451 - 2013-04-17 22:51:54 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
A weapon being completely useless is not balance no matter how you try to slice it. Again, stop trolling.

So your solution is to make another weapon completely useless to restore balance ? Balance is only when all amarr weapon work anyway right ?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1452 - 2013-04-17 22:52:33 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Also if fights above 60 km were actually that rare, nobody would use sniper nagas or alpha fleets. But they do.

But are those actually conducted at sniper ranges (150km+) or are they used so that high damage ammo can be used at greater ranges, Rohk was ruthless back before probe changes as the max range was so great that they outdamaged most other systems simply by being able to use 'better' ammo.
Alpha fleet engagement ranges are dictated by artillery tracking so the range they use should not be included in discussion if you ask me.

MJD and Probes has killed sniping dead.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1453 - 2013-04-17 22:53:16 UTC
Loki Vice wrote:
five days later and still not a word said since this...

has CCP Kil2 Entered full on "ABANDON THREAD" mode... CCP Fozzie please save us from this baddie

Probably he was sent home packing, and CCP looking for a replacement.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1454 - 2013-04-17 22:54:07 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
How does adding one of the most desirable bonuses on top of the most desirable bonus push it into obsolescence?

Maybe you missed the part where I mentioned how neither bonus matters if you can't fire your guns.

Abaddon is similar (cap-wise) and hardly obsolete or unused so what do you base the statement on? Sure the hoops we have to jump through to make it/them work could, nay should, be far fewer but the hull itself is about as good as it gets .. rest should come from laser cap reduction as discussed in the other thread as that doubles as a boost to Abaddon.

Perhaps some sort of boost to Cap Rechargers? Has the advantage of not affecting PvP (the overwhelming reason CCP provides for everything they've been doing the past year), yet helping Laser and Hybrid turret users as well as armor repper users for PvE in reducing the overwhelming slot cost involved in making these ships capable of the sustained fire required for serious missioning.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1455 - 2013-04-17 22:56:40 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
425s have 4.8 km more base optimal and 4 km more base falloff than tachyons do.

But Tachyons can change their optimal in a finger snap, while Rails need a whole 10 seconds to reload.


And tachyons can only do EM and Thermal damage, which is naturally tanked against with all armor values. It's also part of the ONLY weapon system which is limited on the types of damage it can do.

And they require far more powergrid than their artillery counterpart.

And they use far more capacitor per second then their hybrid counterparts.



Individually, these aren't really that bad. But when you combine them on a ship that has almost the same powergrid as that artillery-fit vessals, and almost the same capacitor as those hybrid-fit vessels, with a ship class that is still running cap-intensive mods just like all the others.

The whole picture of the weapon system and it's preferred ship classes (taking in the Oracle as well) is where you see the flaw. Individual components aren't bad. The whole thing taken together is broken.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1456 - 2013-04-17 22:56:46 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Perhaps some sort of boost to Cap Rechargers? Has the advantage of not affecting PvP (the overwhelming reason CCP provides for everything they've been doing the past year), yet helping Laser and Hybrid turret users as well as armor repper users for PvE in reducing the overwhelming slot cost involved in making these ships capable of the sustained fire required for serious missioning.

Serious missioning in a T1 ship ? Seriously ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1457 - 2013-04-17 22:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
A weapon being completely useless is not balance no matter how you try to slice it. Again, stop trolling.

So your solution is to make another weapon completely useless to restore balance ? Balance is only when all amarr weapon work anyway right ?

No. You're the only one who thinks that making tachyons viable will ruin railguns. It won't.
I happen to be a fan of large railguns. I'd also like to be able to use beam lasers, because they're pretty cool too. As it is now there's no reason to use them. That's not balance. Why are you fighting against balance?

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Also if fights above 60 km were actually that rare, nobody would use sniper nagas or alpha fleets. But they do.

But are those actually conducted at sniper ranges (150km+) or are they used so that high damage ammo can be used at greater ranges, Rohk was ruthless back before probe changes as the max range was so great that they outdamaged most other systems simply by being able to use 'better' ammo.
Alpha fleet engagement ranges are dictated by artillery tracking so the range they use should not be included in discussion if you ask me.

MJD and Probes has killed sniping dead.

Yes, they're conducted generally at the 100-140 km range. Lock range is actually more of a limitation than any other factor.
MJD is pretty rare still and it will likely continue to be. It's a nice module but it has limited actual utility. Most ships that would use it have mid slots at a premium and so it's generally not worth the sacrifice of something else in order to fit it.

Probes aren't so much an issue in nullsec because of things like drag bubbles, catch bubbles, etc. I can see from your killboard that you're a lowsec player, so obviously the meta there is a bit different. But for us, sniping isn't dead.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1458 - 2013-04-17 23:03:57 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
425s have 4.8 km more base optimal and 4 km more base falloff than tachyons do.

But Tachyons can change their optimal in a finger snap, while Rails need a whole 10 seconds to reload.


And tachyons can only do EM and Thermal damage, which is naturally tanked against with all armor values. It's also part of the ONLY weapon system which is limited on the types of damage it can do.

And they require far more powergrid than their artillery counterpart.

And they use far more capacitor per second then their hybrid counterparts.



Individually, these aren't really that bad. But when you combine them on a ship that has almost the same powergrid as that artillery-fit vessals, and almost the same capacitor as those hybrid-fit vessels, with a ship class that is still running cap-intensive mods just like all the others.

The whole picture of the weapon system and it's preferred ship classes (taking in the Oracle as well) is where you see the flaw. Individual components aren't bad. The whole thing taken together is broken.


I know. I didn't said, that Tach's don't have issues. I just pointed to one comparison, that I feel unfair.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1459 - 2013-04-17 23:09:36 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
A weapon being completely useless is not balance no matter how you try to slice it. Again, stop trolling.

So your solution is to make another weapon completely useless to restore balance ? Balance is only when all amarr weapon work anyway right ?

No. You're the only one who thinks that making tachyons viable will ruin railguns. It won't.
I happen to be a fan of large railguns. I'd also like to be able to use beam lasers, because they're pretty cool too. As it is now there's no reason to use them. That's not balance. Why are you fighting against balance?

Yeah, blind faith is stronger than arguments I guess. I showed arguments already.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1460 - 2013-04-17 23:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Yeah, blind faith is stronger than arguments I guess. I showed arguments already.

Who's the one with blind faith? I'm saying that tachyons should be rebalanced so that they're actually useful. You're arguing against making weapons useful because you believe that they'll completely obsolete another weapons system even after being shown that they would still have disadvantages, namely significantly higher cap use, significantly higher PG use even with what it would have after a rebalancing, less range, and a damage profile that's fairly useless against the current alpha Loki FOTM with its 95% EM resists.

Yes, significantly higher cap use. You seem to enjoy throwing around numbers like 20% more damage, 30% more tracking to show that Tachyons are OP, but you seem to be ignoring the whole 280% more cap use thing (and that's calculated AFTER the proposed changes that reduce LBL cap use by 20%).

How much experience do you actually have with any of these weapons?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)