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Ranger 1

Ranger Corp

Vae. Victis.

Likes received: 6,345

#1301 - 2013-04-15 22:03:05 UTC

Naso Aya wrote:

Since I know the CCP hasn't gotten around to responding, I figured I'd post this since it gives more depth to the thought process behind the changes; I still think CCP can do better than what's been proposed, but it should make things easier to either 1) understand and 2) refute.

http://www.twitch.tv/sirsqueebles/c/2156104

The whole thing can help contribute to this discussion, but the first 20 min is sort of a general "Why we changed the ships we did".

Thanks for that link.

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Ranger 1

Ranger Corp

Vae. Victis.

Likes received: 6,345

#1302 - 2013-04-15 22:04:49 UTC

Tonto Auri wrote:

Seems like a perfect example of the genereal direction of community menegement lately.
Because
1. Everyone have 10 Mbit internet connection these days (people with mobile/radio links/traffic limited connections are free to **** off)
2. Everyone understand English from listening (those, who are not native English speaker/not learned English in school/simply deaf are free to **** off)

People have been asking CCp to become more accessable, more forthcoming with information and interaction, for as long as I can remember.

It's utterly predictable that when they go out of their way to do so there will be someone... like you... that complains about it.

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Tonto Auri

Vhero' Multipurpose Corp

Likes received: 300

#1303 - 2013-04-15 22:15:11 UTC

Ranger 1 wrote:

Tonto Auri wrote:

I don't see, how limiting the accessibility to a narrower auditory could help interaction.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Ranger 1

Ranger Corp

Vae. Victis.

Likes received: 6,345

#1304 - 2013-04-15 23:24:04 UTC

Tonto Auri wrote:

Ranger 1 wrote:

Tonto Auri wrote:

I don't see, how limiting the accessibility to a narrower auditory could help interaction.

Obvious troll is obvious.

I may have to make a pet project out of you. Big smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.


Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp Likes received: 300	#1305 - 2013-04-15 23:24:55 UTC Quote: "There's a very large... segment... of the population that just doesn't want to see the Geddon change." I wonder, if he understand, why we don't want to see it changed. Seems, like a "no". Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison


Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp Likes received: 300	#1306 - 2013-04-15 23:27:17 UTC Ranger 1 wrote: I may have to make a pet project out of you. Don't forget to pay royalty, and I'll be fine with it. (Don't forget to pay it to the corp account, as I'm not allowed to receive private payments for out of corp projects.) Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Ruze

Next Stage Initiative

Likes received: 523

#1307 - 2013-04-15 23:32:59 UTC | Edited by: Ruze

Tonto Auri wrote:

Quote:

"There's a very large... segment... of the population that just doesn't want to see the Geddon change."

I wonder, if he understand, why we don't want to see it changed. Seems, like a "no".

I'm currently listening to the Q&A as well. http://www.twitch.tv/sirsqueebles/c/2156104 for a relinky.

Interesting for this thought processes, and you can see in his minds eye what the round tables are about.

So I've got my heart set on one change: Removing the neut/vamp bonus from the Geddon and replacing it with something more multi-functional. Even if you skip lasers to allow it to fit ANY weapon system to it's hearts content, then put on that armor resists bonus or possibly even an armor amount bonus. Let it carry on with the Prophecies line.

I mean, the host even covers why he feels the dragoon fails at it "half combat, half utility" mindset. And I feel that is EXACTLY what turns me off about the expected change.

Edit: The ship will still have the utility high slots for those neut possibilities. They won't be taken away. But your not streamlining him into fitting a neut every time just to maximize his abilities.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Naso Aya

Imperial Shipment

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 80

#1308 - 2013-04-15 23:42:44 UTC

Ruze wrote:

Very much agreed. I thought the proposed Abaddon changes a few pages ago, making it the drone boat was good, while giving the Apoc a damage bonus (which I feel it needs, even as an attack BS). The Armageddon MWD bonus didn't feel quite right, but I do like it quite a bit more than the current setup. With the Apoc as the attack BS, I just feel it's begging to be replaced by the Oracle- cheaper, more cost effective, and easier to fit. And as a sniper, mobility matters a lot.

Tonto Auri wrote:

Armageddon
Attack BS, 7/4/8, 6T, 50/75 (50/100 ?) drones
7% RoF increase
5% MWD cap penalty reduction
Should both help mobility, help capacitor just a bit, and to not work as power creep.
You hardly do more damage with increased RoF, more DPS - yes, but you'll have to sacrifice mobility and/or tank to consistently provide that much DPS. Which, IMO, balancing one against another.
Why 7%, and not 7.5%? 7.5% seems WAY too much for me, though you get more capacitor spent with each 0.1% RoF increase, which could balance it roughly equal.
With drones - the idea is to have ability to sport a flight of meds, while having at least some backup/variety up her sleeve, to help with the brawl.

Apocalypse
Combat BS, 8/3/7, 8T
10% optimal bonus
5% damage bonus
Balance PG around 6 tachyons or full rack of megabeams.
Then 7 lows will go for the preferered mix of tank, gank, and stat mods.
Though, Scorch issue needs to be resolved first. It's a shame, that pulse crystal takes on the work of beams in sniping.

Abaddon
Combat BS, 8/4/6, 8T, 6L, 125/XXX drones
Slightly better capacitor regen, than of the previous two.
+10% to drone damage, hit points and mining yield per level
+4% to armor resistances per level
I think, this one speaks for herself. But just in case you didn't noticed, you may still use lasers (though, unbonused), or you may prefer to fit launchers and have a few utility slots for cap games. Yes, indirectly, it is the same cap warfare, that has been proposed for Armageddon before, but it doesn't step on Bhallgorn toes, and maintain the general Amarr line in spirit.

Ranger 1

Ranger Corp

Vae. Victis.

Likes received: 6,345

#1309 - 2013-04-16 00:08:00 UTC | Edited by: Ranger 1

Ruze wrote:

Tonto Auri wrote:

Quote:

"There's a very large... segment... of the population that just doesn't want to see the Geddon change."

I wonder, if he understand, why we don't want to see it changed. Seems, like a "no".

If the Armageddons bonuses were going to be to NOS/Nuet amount I might agree with you on that last point, but since it's not I think you are going to see a lot of variety in the setups.

Will you see some people go with making the sacrifices necessary to mount a full rack of Nuets and keep them running? Sure, for certain purposes. But while range has it's advantages, it doesn't do a lot to speed up your ability to shut someone down and kill them quickly like a Nuet amount bonus would.

For a general purpose brawler I think the quick additional damage potential (even unbonused) of 5 pulse lasers or 5 Torp launchers with a couple of Nuets (or even filling all 7 slots with a mix of the two) on top of your bonused drone damage will prove to be very popular. I can think of several different fits I'll be flying, most of them won't involve more than two Nuets (or NOS depending on if they do anything with them).

As a side note, keep in mind while the host isn't fond of the Dragoon (and stated his reasoning, which is sound), he was also equally sure that the Armageddon would comparatively be vastly superior in performance... and was quite a fan of the concept.

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Ruze

Next Stage Initiative

Likes received: 523

#1310 - 2013-04-16 00:11:59 UTC

Ranger 1 wrote:

As a side note, keep in mind while the host isn't fond of the Dragoon (and stated his reasoning, which is sound), he was also equally sure that the Armageddon would comparatively be vastly superior in performance... and was quite a fan of the concept.

He did. I as listening in real time, hehehe ...

I don't think it will be a failure, mind you. The Bhaalgorn works very well. But I think it would be superior if you put another bonus related to something different. A wasted bonus is a wasted bonus.

Doctor Ape MD

Imperial Academy

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 29

#1311 - 2013-04-16 01:14:10 UTC

Naso Aya wrote:

Does anyone have a written summary of this? I do not have the time to watch/listen to the whole thing.

I still feel as though these changes were made with little thought to the Amarr mission runner. I agree that PvP is more important, but ideally training that is done to improve PvE would also benefit PvP and vice versa. As it is, I just can't imagine recommending any of the new designs as a starting point for an Amarr mission runner running level 4s.

Ion Industrials 124
Crexa Ion Industrials Likes received: 124	#1312 - 2013-04-16 01:43:09 UTC 1 These changes make me want to kick someone in the balls. Pray, I do not meet a CCP employee today. I said it before and I will say it again..."These changes are turning EvE into vanilla soup!!!" "F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"

Ruze

Next Stage Initiative

Likes received: 523

#1313 - 2013-04-16 01:45:12 UTC

Crexa wrote:

These changes make me want to kick someone in the balls. Pray, I do not meet a CCP employee today.

I said it before and I will say it again..."These changes are turning EvE into vanilla soup!!!"

You know, I've had it up to here with people who use the wondrous, pleasant and useful taste of 'vanilla' as if it's a bad thing ...

Crexa

Ion Industrials

Likes received: 124

#1314 - 2013-04-16 02:00:00 UTC | Edited by: Crexa

Ruze wrote:

Crexa wrote:

These changes make me want to kick someone in the balls. Pray, I do not meet a CCP employee today.

I said it before and I will say it again..."These changes are turning EvE into vanilla soup!!!"

You know, I've had it up to here with people who use the wondrous, pleasant and useful taste of 'vanilla' as if it's a bad thing ...

Too bad for you. But I guess if you like your game reduced to everyone flying the same ship minus its skin, color and name. Then more power to you. :P

Instead of people responding to the question; "what was he flying?" with an "apoc". It will now go along the lines of "it was an attack battleship". Second question "Oh, what kind?" Response: "does it matter?"

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"

Naso Aya

Imperial Shipment

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 80

#1315 - 2013-04-16 02:07:59 UTC

Crexa wrote:

Too bad for you. But I guess if you like your game reduced to everyone flying the same ship minus its skin, color and name. Then more power to you. :P

Within the Amarr race, or out of the Amarr race? Because within the Amarr race, things were pretty vanilla, though well tiered.

You know, I might have said this before, but that's part of the reason things are hard to swallow now- for all the overlap there was, it was pretty easy to go Armageddon->Apoc->Abaddon and feel like you were progressing through steadily better/more advanced ships. Each one had a role, yet the Abaddon was flat out better than the Apoc, which was flat out better than the Armageddon.

Ranger 1

Ranger Corp

Vae. Victis.

Likes received: 6,345

#1316 - 2013-04-16 02:09:21 UTC

Crexa wrote:

Ruze wrote:

Crexa wrote:

These changes make me want to kick someone in the balls. Pray, I do not meet a CCP employee today.

I said it before and I will say it again..."These changes are turning EvE into vanilla soup!!!"

You know, I've had it up to here with people who use the wondrous, pleasant and useful taste of 'vanilla' as if it's a bad thing ...

I'm not really seeing the issue.

Name another BS that has a Nuet bonus, drone damage bonus, and allows the fitting of 5 lasers or missiles.

Name another BS that has laser range and tracking bonuses.

Surely you aren't complaining about the Abaddon, which is basically unchanged from what it always has been... a Laser using brick.

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Liang Nuren

No Salvation

Divine Damnation

Likes received: 4,453

#1317 - 2013-04-16 02:22:14 UTC

Ranger 1 wrote:

I think the funniest side of that particular segment was that nobody in game design was actually good at PVPing in frigates. I rather strongly disagree with their reasoning on why the Geddon will "work" and the Dragoon "doesn't". Though to be fair, the Dragoon actually works pretty well when you can guarantee that one of it's intended targets is going to land right on top of it. Like in a FW plex.

At any rate, the problem in general PVP isn't the "twitchiness of the fight at frigate levels". The problem is that there's certain ranges that are just really important to be able to work at and the Dragoon just doesn't get there. Even the range bonused Sentinel doesn't really reach out far enough. The new Geddorn, however, reaches out to pretty much all useful ranges. Thus, it will work out ok. However, it's still not an Armageddon. And I want my ******* Armageddon.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#1318 - 2013-04-16 03:14:12 UTC | Edited by: James Amril-Kesh

I honestly don't care about the Geddon change. It's the Apocalypse I'm concerned about.

The Apocalypse needs more CPU, slightly more PG (yes, even after the laser changes), and more cap. Nerfing the cap after removing a bonus to laser turret cap use... yeah, that'll go well. Tracking bonus is nice, but if you can't even fire your guns all the tracking in the world isn't going to help you one bit.

And there's still the issue of the Oracle being able to fit 8 tachyons without too much trouble (iirc you need a single fitting rig with these new changes), whereas the Apoc still needs two fitting rigs or some other combination of multiple modules if it wants to fit a micro warp drive (mandatory) and a heavy cap booster (also mandatory). Even then there's no space left for tank. With the PG nerf to Tachyons the Apoc is still very, very tight on CPU, to pretty restrictive levels. Buffing the weapons themselves for fitting isn't a good idea because that just makes them easier for the Oracle to use.

tl;dr either nerf PG and CPU on the oracle and reduce them on the weapons, or buff the Apoc's PG and CPU. Also buff the Apoc's cap or better yet take progodlegend's suggestion to reduce cap use of all large energy turrets by at least 30%. Just over double the cap use of blasters seems fair, doesn't it? Again in return you can nerf the Oracle's cap if you do this.

It's not even as if the Apoc was used for PVP that much to begin with... Anybody who wanted to actually use its capabilities to snipe went straight to the Navy version for its increased cap, pg, and CPU.

I'm perfectly fine with the tracking bonus as long as a few other things are addressed. Right now as these changes are nobody is going to be using the Apoc for much of anything. It will be useless for PVP, and it will be very difficult to use in PVE compared to other battleships without max skills.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Naso Aya

Imperial Shipment

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 80

#1319 - 2013-04-16 03:21:02 UTC

That's the conclusion I've come to. The loser here is the Apoc. The geddon gets changed, and the results can't really be judged till sisi/execution. But the Apoc? What's the role it's trying to fill PvE sniper? Needs more cap. PvP sniper? Oracle does it just plain better. General shooting frigate boat? Why not get an Abaddon, they're tankier, or an Armageddon, they're designed for brawling/counter frigate pvp. Even without the neut bonus, 5 light drones tend to make frigates not have a good day.

Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 250
Lelob Republic Military School Minmatar Republic Likes received: 250	#1320 - 2013-04-16 03:27:19 UTC It would be much cooler if geddons had a neut amount bonus hten a neut range bonus. Although I can deal with heavy neuts with the range of a curse.