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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1221 - 2013-04-14 04:37:01 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
What's the reason the Mael and Abaddon have the same PG? The Abaddon is supposed to armor tank and fit higher PG weapons while the Mael shield tanks and gets a higher CPU because of it. Even with the new energy weapon changes, it is physically impossible to fit Tach's (102% of PG) while it isn't on the Mael or any other race. Are all Amarr BS's supposed to use nothing but Scorch until they can fit a Paladin?


We haven't gotten a response from CCP...but it's looking like yes. I feel the issue boils down to two separate issues: Scorch is too strong for pulse lasers, so smaller beams besides Tachs aren't worth fitting, and the Abaddon is too strong of a platform; having Tach's able to be fit on it would potentially lead to some serious balance issues, with a stronger tank than a Mael, combined with longer, more consistent damage at range.
Alannah Thellere
T4x 3v45i0n 2.0
#1222 - 2013-04-14 05:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alannah Thellere
Ranger 1 wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
Very dissapointed to see you remove the best lowsec/smallgang battleship out of the amarrian lineup. I do sincerely hope that you won't wreck the navy geddon, the way that you have ruined the current geddon, from being a mobile, tough, cheap, high dps laser platform, into a weak bhaalgorn. I suppose super capital killers will rejoice, to the addition of a ship with neut bonuses that doesn't have to get as close, but I would have hoped that you would have taken a less with how terrible the dragoon is, and ideally, overhauled the dragoon into something useful, instead of wrecking the armageddon into something similarly aweful. Will the Amarrian battleship line be getting a decent small gang warfare battleship back in the future? The apoc has pathetic dps by comparison, and the abaddon is far too slow, as well as having a fair bit less (~10%) dps than the armageddon.

1: A fragile destroyer that most will operate at relatively close range of their target is not the best platform for a neut/drone weapons system. They are too slow to maintain range and have no tank to speak of. The Armageddon is pretty robust and can operate at further range.

2: The Apoc will be a nearly ideal kiting battleship, a near perfect fit for mid sized gang work. With the beam changes it will be a pretty good sniper now as well.

3: The Armageddon is borderline overpowered for small gang, close quarter brawls... and will be one of the most flexible and unpredictable ships in EvE.


.... unless you like flying it in PVE or it's your go-to laser boat when you're not trained heavily into Amarr. Then it's no longer an option.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#1223 - 2013-04-14 05:21:36 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
What's the reason the Mael and Abaddon have the same PG? The Abaddon is supposed to armor tank and fit higher PG weapons while the Mael shield tanks and gets a higher CPU because of it. Even with the new energy weapon changes, it is physically impossible to fit Tach's (102% of PG) while it isn't on the Mael or any other race. Are all Amarr BS's supposed to use nothing but Scorch until they can fit a Paladin?


We haven't gotten a response from CCP...but it's looking like yes. I feel the issue boils down to two separate issues: Scorch is too strong for pulse lasers, so smaller beams besides Tachs aren't worth fitting, and the Abaddon is too strong of a platform; having Tach's able to be fit on it would potentially lead to some serious balance issues, with a stronger tank than a Mael, combined with longer, more consistent damage at range.


I would agree with you but it's not like the other 2 BS's can physically fit a rack of Tach's either, Apoc is the sniper and has the same PG as the Abaddon so Tach's would take 102% of PG....WTF. Having to relegate an entire line of BS's to nothing but Scorch is incredibly broken to me.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1224 - 2013-04-14 05:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Alannah Thellere wrote:
.... unless you like flying it in PVE or it's your go-to laser boat when you're not trained heavily into Amarr. Then it's no longer an option.

Apocalypse with MPII will be infinitely more effective than anything previously seen as an Amarr mission boat .. will be better than the glorious Paladin for Goddess sake. Tracking+Range is the god combo when it comes to missions (and clearing the field in general), and with so few missions needing more than a 70-80km field of fire it is as if designed specifically for it.
Your mission-whoring laser option is more than adequately catered to, certainly much better than anything we have had before .. added bonus of training for/using the specialized *new* Drone Geddon (Sentries, heavies, cruise missiles) is that you'll be able to have it on standby for the occasional Serp/Gall/Guris mission where lasers are just laughable.
Avald Midular wrote:
...Having to relegate an entire line of BS's to nothing but Scorch is incredibly broken to me.

Dual Heavy Beam Laser? Mega Beam Laser?

Do a comparison of the Mega Beam and the Tachyon. They are not that far apart in performance, that said, one does pay a premium in terms of fitting for the extra 10% range/dps and ~50% alpha of Tachyons .. with sniping no longer valid in blob love fests and BS being replaced by much faster/nimbler tier3 BCs at ranges close to or in excess of 100km, all you need is Scorch .. Apoc needs just 2 or three mods to be able to reach 100km, beyond that you have MJD's and Probes to nail the enemy.

So, enough with the Tachyon nonsense. It became obsolete years ago when range option was removed and alpha was introduced .. if the problem is the Oracles ability to use them then address that, has nothing to do with the BS line .. go to the attack BC thread and ask for them to be hit alot harder than proposed. Focus man, focus!
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1225 - 2013-04-14 05:49:40 UTC
EVE is a game where rails and blasters both have their upsides and downsides. Arty and autocannons too. We just saw reductions and adjustments in the medium missile lines to bring the two seperate sides to more equitable footing. So why is it "Lol scorch" is the only acceptable answer for Amarr?

There are issues with all the systems, and missiles definitely need more of a rework than lasers, but as-is, only one item is going to be getting use: Mega Pulse Laser II's with scorch. Without a major laser rebalance, Tachyons are the one item that stand a chance of changing that- sorry for hoping of fitting something else :(
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#1226 - 2013-04-14 05:56:29 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
...Having to relegate an entire line of BS's to nothing but Scorch is incredibly broken to me.

Dual Heavy Beam Laser? Mega Beam Laser?

Do a comparison of the Mega Beam and the Tachyon. They are not that far apart in performance, that said, one does pay a premium in terms of fitting for the extra 10% range/dps and ~50% alpha of Tachyons .. with sniping no longer valid in blob love fests and BS being replaced by much faster/nimbler tier3 BCs at ranges close to or in excess of 100km, all you need is Scorch .. Apoc needs just 2 or three mods to be able to reach 100km, beyond that you have MJD's and Probes to nail the enemy.

So, enough with the Tachyon nonsense. It became obsolete years ago when range option was removed and alpha was introduced .. if the problem is the Oracles ability to use them then address that, has nothing to do with the BS line .. go to the attack BC thread and ask for them to be hit alot harder than proposed. Focus man, focus!



I'm not going to compare Amarr's 2nd best T2 beam to Minmatar's best T2 artillery, that isn't helpful. I'm comparing across races to make a point. No other race has a problem fitting their best T2 beam equivalent. That is my issue. I'm fine with no Amarr BS being physically able to fit, or even fire due to cap, the best T2 beam weapon as long as all the other races are in the same boat, as we have it now, Amarr is the ONLY one and that is broken.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1227 - 2013-04-14 05:59:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Naso Aya wrote:
EVE is a game where rails and blasters both have their upsides and downsides. Arty and autocannons too. We just saw reductions and adjustments in the medium missile lines to bring the two seperate sides to more equitable footing. So why is it "Lol scorch" is the only acceptable answer for Amarr?

There are issues with all the systems, and missiles definitely need more of a rework than lasers, but as-is, only one item is going to be getting use: Mega Pulse Laser II's with scorch. Without a major laser rebalance, Tachyons are the one item that stand a chance of changing that- sorry for hoping of fitting something else :(

Lasers will be revised, hopefully in the same vein as projectiles with ammo (incl. Scorch) being a major variable. Just won't be this summer, but the promise has all but been made so it is coming.
The crutch known as Scorch dominates all our weapon sizes, it is not exclusive to BS sized weaponry. Boggles the mind to think that an ammo type is so powerful that it can create and maintain the illusion of lasers being -on par- with the other options through years of tweaks/buffs to said other systems .. broken, but without it our legs will buckle so lean on it heavily until we get one of those snazzy electric wheelchairs the neighbours zoom around in!
Avald Midular wrote:
....I'm not going to compare Amarr's 2nd best T2 beam to Minmatar's best T2 artillery, that isn't helpful. I'm comparing across races to make a point. No other race has a problem fitting their best T2 beam equivalent. That is my issue. I'm fine with no Amarr BS being physically able to fit, or even fire due to cap, the best T2 beam weapon as long as all the other races are in the same boat, as we have it now, Amarr is the ONLY one and that is broken.

Tachyons are not the best beam, they are not even in the list .. they are oversized, like 1600 plates on a cruiser or a MSE on a frig. They offer respectable alpha over that of smaller bore guns, but that is it .. horrible tracking, atrocious fittings and gluttonous operation make them inferior to Mega Beams in any scenario relevant today.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1228 - 2013-04-14 06:18:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Tonto Auri wrote:
Storyline, my dear. You can't just point at 10 years of storytelling and say "this had never happened". (Technically, you can, but you'll get the same level of disappointment, as Blizzard and other companies, who made this mistake in the past.)


Do you mean like they did with the Prophecy, which despite early bitter complaints has ended up being extremely popular?
Or do you mean like they did with every T1 logistics cruiser in the game, which has been even more popular?
Not seeing any disappointment when these ships were redesigned once they entered service. Lore evolves and grows over time, my friend.

Tonto Auri wrote:
The story says, that Armageddon and Apocalypse has seen service in years predating the current calendar. And the story says, what these ships were. Also, the story says, that sucking ships were used by suckers, as a direct product of their heresy, not by Holy Amarr Empire.


Key word being "were".
Now I'll admit I could have easily missed some bit of lore that describes the Amarr empire condemning "sucking" ships as heresy (which means it is something of a mystery how the Sentinel, Curse, and Pilgrim came to be). Perhaps you could provide a source for that. Not that it really matters, because as I said, Lore evolves and changes... and has many times over EvE's history.

Tonto Auri wrote:
Also, where you saw my "accursed drones" angle? In your imaginary arguments? Sorry to burst your bubble.

And again, argumenting T1 ship changes with T2 ships is not correct (read: a failure of an argument.)

Speaking of game balance changes, I'm fine with amarr drone ship. If you accidentally open your eyes, you'll even see my posts advocating that ship, and suggesting the layouts and bonuses.


I must have been confused by your anti drone tirade in #1154 (among others).
I don't really know how you are rationalizing T1 and T2 bonuses shouldn't overlap. Obviously they often do, resistance bonuses come to mind, among others. By the way, no T2 ship is bonused like the Armageddon will be for NOS/Nuets. Currently they are bonused either for NOS/Nuet cap amount, or for both amount and range... never just for range.

Tonto Auri wrote:
The problem is the choice of hulls, first and foremost. Armageddon and Apocalypse MUST remain laser boats. No discussion allowed.
If you want a drone boat - Abaddon is here for you. You may even put 4-6 launchers on it. but no sucking bonuses, THANK YOU. If anyone want a bloody sucker, there's Bhaalgorn, and it even not require to crosstrain into any other race. And will require the same level of skills to fly, if I'm not mistaken.


I'm glad you've decided that "no discussion is allowed", fortunately the creators of the game feel otherwise. For someone obsessed with EvE history you find it very easy to forget the Armageddon has nearly twice the drone bay of the Abaddon.... and that the Bhaalgorn is based on the Armageddon hull.

Speaking of the Bhaalgorn, it does require cross training in Minmatar to fly... and do you know why?
Because it gets it's bonus to webs from the Minmatar battleship skill, while it gets is bonus to NOS/Nuets from it's Amarr battleship skill. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1229 - 2013-04-14 06:28:56 UTC
I am just looking forward to seeing more than 4-5% of ships fielded in tournament being of the golden hull variety as has been the norm the past three years .. Armageddon and Apocalypse are like designed for that venue, small gang combat where logi suppression and swatting support is key Smile
Jack C Hughes
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1230 - 2013-04-14 06:33:04 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Avald Midular wrote:
....I'm not going to compare Amarr's 2nd best T2 beam to Minmatar's best T2 artillery, that isn't helpful. I'm comparing across races to make a point. No other race has a problem fitting their best T2 beam equivalent. That is my issue. I'm fine with no Amarr BS being physically able to fit, or even fire due to cap, the best T2 beam weapon as long as all the other races are in the same boat, as we have it now, Amarr is the ONLY one and that is broken.

Tachyons are not the best beam, they are not even in the list .. they are oversized, like 1600 plates on a cruiser or a MSE on a frig. They offer respectable alpha over that of smaller bore guns, but that is it .. horrible tracking, atrocious fittings and gluttonous operation make them inferior to Mega Beams in any scenario relevant today.


for the oversized thing simply compare the number of turrets that Amaar and Minmatar have.
Amarr: 2 pulses 3 Beams, 5.
Min: 3 auto, 2 Arties, 5.

While for gallente & Caldari they own 6 for two races while Caldari have missles

Fine if you say that Tach is oversized, just give another thing that is not oversized and enable Amarr a similar number of choice of turrets as Minmatar.

Don't like the idea of using oversize to neglect the problem.
Tachs are bit stronger than others and that MIGHT be right but we have to waste a 50% cap usage bonus even to use it.
Other turrests with some bonus like 10% range(Rokh) or 5% damage(Mealstrom) is defenatly better than Tachs.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1231 - 2013-04-14 06:43:02 UTC
Jack C Hughes wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Avald Midular wrote:
....I'm not going to compare Amarr's 2nd best T2 beam to Minmatar's best T2 artillery, that isn't helpful. I'm comparing across races to make a point. No other race has a problem fitting their best T2 beam equivalent. That is my issue. I'm fine with no Amarr BS being physically able to fit, or even fire due to cap, the best T2 beam weapon as long as all the other races are in the same boat, as we have it now, Amarr is the ONLY one and that is broken.

Tachyons are not the best beam, they are not even in the list .. they are oversized, like 1600 plates on a cruiser or a MSE on a frig. They offer respectable alpha over that of smaller bore guns, but that is it .. horrible tracking, atrocious fittings and gluttonous operation make them inferior to Mega Beams in any scenario relevant today.


for the oversized thing simply compare the number of turrets that Amaar and Minmatar have.
Amarr: 2 pulses 3 Beams, 5.
Min: 3 auto, 2 Arties, 5.

While for gallente & Caldari they own 6 for two races while Caldari have missles

Fine if you say that Tach is oversized, just give another thing that is not oversized and enable Amarr a similar number of choice of turrets as Minmatar.

Don't like the idea of using oversize to neglect the problem.
Tachs are bit stronger than others and that MIGHT be right but we have to waste a 50% cap usage bonus even to use it.
Other turrests with some bonus like 10% range(Rokh) or 5% damage(Mealstrom) is defenatly better than Tachs.

Your confusion on the issue is quite understandable, CCP did some odd things when coming up with the laser line up and naming convention originally.

He's right though, Mega beams were supposed to be on par with the top of the line for the other races... while Tachs were supposed to be an over sized option for Amarr that required your entire fit to be focused solely on mounting and keeping them running.

I'm glad they have cut the requirements for fittings and cap on all BS sized beams(including Tachs), and with luck perhaps they can be persuaded to rework beams entirely.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1232 - 2013-04-14 07:16:10 UTC
Jack C Hughes wrote:
for the oversized thing simply compare the number of turrets that Amaar and Minmatar have....

Sure, lets play that game:
Small Beam: 2, Medium Beam: 3, Large Beam: 3
Small Pulse: 3, Medium/Large Pulse: 2

Discrepancies abound! Take a look at that 3rd medium beam if you please, it is called Quad LBL and is essentially a beam version of the small gatling pulse .. if Tachyons were truly the 3rd large beam then it would have been designed in the same vein but since it was meant to compete range wise with rails in ages past it became what you see today.

As I said, lasers are a [lisp]Special[/lisp] case. Been burning crystals for as long as I have been piloting, so I am well aware of all the niggles involved.

PS: Join my crusade to introduce the M/L Gatlings please, you seem to have a passion for lasers as I have. Just prod the Devs whenever they mention "pulse" or "laser", eventually they'll buckle or in the very least explain why not Big smile
Jack C Hughes
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1233 - 2013-04-14 07:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack C Hughes
Lost All I wrote due to bad internet access.
Damn it
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1234 - 2013-04-14 09:06:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Constructive criticism:

For the 'new' Armageddon, the combination of Neutralizer bonus, the Dominix’s drone bonus and the slot layout provide too much synergy – it will be too powerful and steps too much on the Dominix’s role.

Instead:

Quote:
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% large energy turret and battleship launcher rate of fire
+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range (replaced large energy turret cap use)

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 8L; 5 turrets(-2) , 5 launchers(+5)
Fittings: 13500 PWG(-3000), 550 CPU(+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(+1331) / 8500(+1859) / 8000(+1789)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(-5) / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 250(+125)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4)
Signature radius: 450 (+80)

My changes emphasised.
Having a ‘dual-hatted’ bonus is not without precedent and having three bonuses is not without precendent (Scorpion).

What this does is keep clearer separation between the Armageddon and Dominx.

It has a larger drone bay, allowing a flight of heavy’s, flight of mediums and 3 flights of lights but not the drone damage bonus.
It retains enough of its laser focus to keep the ‘loyalists’ happy, but also has that Khanid gleam to its eye, without going all the way (i.e. without the bonuses to missile damage projection, like the Raven and Typhoon).
It is flexible, but forces genuine compromise rather than the straight 7 neut + drones ship the current iteration is going to become.

Thoughts?

Edit: If you changed it back to being a non-drone boat it would be able to get it's 8th low slot back.
Quoting myself quoting, because I think it's worth discussing - I still feel the current proposed Armageddon is too close to the Dominix and will completely overshadow the former. Lasers (or Launchers - both options viable with the bonus) with neuts and a bigger, but not Dominix drone bay, would still open up 'options' which seems to be the drive behind all of this:

5 gun/2 neut
5 launcher/2 neut
5 gun/ 2 launcher
7 neut
4 neut/3 nos

List goes on.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#1235 - 2013-04-14 10:21:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmy Zeta
So I played around with the new stats in EFT a little.
The Apoc seems to be a little low on CPU right now - with mandatory modules like MWD, Heavy Cap Booster (no way this ship will be viable without it, even with MWD turned off it will deplete its cap by firing the guns alone within 3 m 16 s with all level 5 skills), 3 Heatsinks, TC II, DCU II and 1 EANM II, I was already so low on CPU that I had to fill the remaining low with an ANP II and had to put a Cap recharger II into the remaining mid slot for lack of a better option due to lack of CPU.
(My fit had 81k EHP, 973 m/s, exactly 1000 dps with Conflag @ 27 +13 and 760 dps with Scorch @ 80+ 13)

2 ACR and one Large Processor Overclocking Unit would be needed to fit a full rack of Tachyons (also with max skills)- but only if you forfeit the MWD and fit an AB instead.

Right now I am playing around with Geddon fits - you can make some oddball fun setups with this ship, but overall I fear that it is not focused enough to excel in any role except the obvious torpedo setup.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1236 - 2013-04-14 10:21:34 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
EVE is a game where rails and blasters both have their upsides and downsides. Arty and autocannons too. We just saw reductions and adjustments in the medium missile lines to bring the two seperate sides to more equitable footing. So why is it "Lol scorch" is the only acceptable answer for Amarr?

There are issues with all the systems, and missiles definitely need more of a rework than lasers, but as-is, only one item is going to be getting use: Mega Pulse Laser II's with scorch. Without a major laser rebalance, Tachyons are the one item that stand a chance of changing that- sorry for hoping of fitting something else :(

Oh just you wait, they'll nerf the Mega Pulses and scorch so you have the option but likely won't be flying Amarr anymore...
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1237 - 2013-04-14 10:37:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
CCP
perhaps the Apoc could sacrifice some of its optimal range bonus in exchange for better cap and more cpu?

Oh and please buff all battleships mobility just take a couple of million kg of their mass...

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Laura Belle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1238 - 2013-04-14 10:43:26 UTC
is it an illusion or it's really the only ship that gonna be left with 18slots?
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#1239 - 2013-04-14 11:39:07 UTC
PVE setup for the Apoc:

8x MPL II

3x Cap Recharger II
1x TC II

2x HS II
1x EANM II
2x Hardeners II
1x LAR II
1x Cap Power Relay II

Aux. Nanopump
Energy Collision Accelerator
CCC

5x Hammerhead II

With all level 5 skills 11m 50s with Scorch ( 708 dps @ 71+13) or INMF (847 dps @ 24 +13).
Capstable with Gamma or above.
Plenty of Grid and CPU left.
So I guess it will be viable for PVE, even for less experienced players.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1240 - 2013-04-14 11:39:56 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Tachyons are not the best beam, they are not even in the list .. they are oversized, like 1600 plates on a cruiser or a MSE on a frig. They offer respectable alpha over that of smaller bore guns, but that is it .. horrible tracking, atrocious fittings and gluttonous operation make them inferior to Mega Beams in any scenario relevant today.

LOL OKAY
A battleship can't fit 8 of these oversized guns, but a battlecruiser can do it without nearly as much trouble.
Anybody else see the problem with that?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)