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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1181 - 2013-04-13 17:25:30 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Because anecdotical evidence is the best evidence?

go look at any kb battle ship kill/losses statistics, Armageddon is everywhere Hyperion AINT. cant beleive i actually had to use KB stats

I'm sorry, but when was the last time you saw a fleet based heavily on Armageddons?
Or a roaming BS group?
Or even a pirate camp?

I really liked the Armageddon, but it was redundant.

One thing it did have going for it was that it was cheap, but as pricing will be leveled that won't be a factor anymore.

look at null sec scrub

I do every day, from a variety of points of view, thanks. Low sec as well. Smile

I'd love to say the Armageddon is heavily used, even in relation to other Amarr hulls, but (sadly) it is not... and the facts support this.

ok then you should no that amarr militia uses armageddon fleets everyday, so the facts DO support that the armageddon is both infact the main ship of the fleet, and MORE used than the hyperion. come again tryhard

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#1182 - 2013-04-13 17:26:58 UTC
Let's all be honest here for a moment, nobody knows how these changes will affect Amarr BS's until we get our hands on them. I am seeing alot of opinions based on how things are today and the changes proposed of tomorrow, the bottom line is nobody knows until we get them in battle with the other races BS's that have been changed as well.

Oderint Dum Metuant
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1183 - 2013-04-13 17:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Ruze wrote:

Obviously, we've had the Arbitrator for drone use. Our usage, over the years, of drones has increased per ship. As I mentioned in another post, even the Armageddon used to have a tiny drone bay.

We've also had ships that used missiles. If I remember correctly, several ships had a couple slots here and there, even the Apoc. Memory isn't what it used to be on that one.

Mind our tech 2 variants, and we've had cap warfare. And it also isn't uncommon for Amarrians to consider the Bhaalgorn to be an Amarr ship, due to it's style and flair.

The Dragoon is recent, sure. But I still feel like the Abaddon, Harbinger, and t3 Cruisers are a recent addition. Heck, the Prophecy and Coercer weren't added too long ago ...


My point was, there were no cap warfare tech1 amarr ships until Retribution. I did not say there were no drone boats in amarr lineup or no missile slots on amarr hulls.

Two more question, if you may.

What about sansha ships? Are they considered amarrian too "due to their style and flair"?

Obviously, following this logic we will see more amarr ships with lots of meds and only some lows, after all Curse is already doing it (H5/M6/L4).

I do want tech1 shield tanked amarrian ships. Big smile

Sansha Ships do not use Amarrian hulls.

Amarr ships have always had a tendency to have a high utility slot. Being a cap oriented race these slots were always filled with a Neut/Nos (for obvious reasons), and this tendency was legitimized in the T2 lines. Since a well rounded Amarr pilot would always train for their use (or to fly Amarr hulls specifically bonused for them that no other race has) why would you not have them included at the BS level.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1184 - 2013-04-13 17:34:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
ok then you should no that amarr militia uses armageddon fleets everyday, so the facts DO support that the armageddon is both infact the main ship of the fleet, and MORE used than the hyperion. come again tryhard

Nice try, but I also have an alt in the Amarr Militia. Up until a few months ago I also had my corp enlisted with them. Smile

Even there, their use is hardly what one would call wide spread... and no disrespect to my Militia bretheren, but they hardly make up a large section of the EvE community as a whole. You see many more Amarr Militia pilots Plexing in frigates and mission running in stealth bombers. Because the Amarr Milita makes heavy use of them should stealth bombers now be considered an icon of Amarrian tradition?

We had the facts laid out to us directly by CCP, I'm sorry if you don't like them.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1185 - 2013-04-13 17:49:17 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
ok then you should no that amarr militia uses armageddon fleets everyday, so the facts DO support that the armageddon is both infact the main ship of the fleet, and MORE used than the hyperion. come again tryhard

You see many more Amarr Militia pilots Plexing in frigates and mission running in stealth bombers. Because the Amarr Milita makes heavy use of them should stealth bombers now be considered an icon of Amarrian tradition?

We had the facts laid out to us directly by CCP, I'm sorry if you don't like them.

That right their, clearly indicates you do not have an alt in amarr militia. lol amarr in stealth bombers running missions.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1186 - 2013-04-13 17:51:27 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
ok then you should no that amarr militia uses armageddon fleets everyday, so the facts DO support that the armageddon is both infact the main ship of the fleet, and MORE used than the hyperion. come again tryhard

Nice try, but I also have an alt in the Amarr Militia. Up until a few months ago I also had my corp enlisted with them. Smile

Even there, their use is hardly what one would call wide spread... and no disrespect to my Militia bretheren, but they hardly make up a large section of the EvE community as a whole. You see many more Amarr Militia pilots Plexing in frigates and mission running in stealth bombers. Because the Amarr Milita makes heavy use of them should stealth bombers now be considered an icon of Amarrian tradition?

We had the facts laid out to us directly by CCP, I'm sorry if you don't like them.


And the facts said that the Apoc is just as underused as the Armageddon. What is CCP doing to change the usage of the Apoc, besides making it harder to fly?

I'm not happy with the Armageddon's new direction, but I'll live with it till the changes hit Sisi. Rereading CCP Rise's posts though, I'm growing more concerned (again) for the Apoc.

Part of it might be the Abaddon is too strong. But I feel just as important is the fact that the Apoc would only see use if it was an Alpha Artillery platform in the current state of the game. Something more needs to happen to the Apoc, especially if it's being classed as an "attack" battleship.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#1187 - 2013-04-13 18:05:46 UTC
Arline Kley wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
I do want tech1 shield tanked amarrian ships. Big smile

My rage is so absolute that you just made me freeze helium.

Well, it is balance in a nutshell that is made of win and awesome.

this is perfect. Lol
Quote:
I can see the general trend of loud handfull of people staunchly against the changes, and the vast majority silenced by the win and awesomeness amarr is once again bound to become.

Pattern can I take it as my sig?

Quote:
Let's all be honest here for a moment, nobody knows how these changes will affect Amarr BS's until we get our hands on them. I am seeing alot of opinions based on how things are today and the changes proposed of tomorrow, the bottom line is nobody knows until we get them in battle with the other races BS's that have been changed as well.

Yup, that is true.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1188 - 2013-04-13 18:19:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
ok then you should no that amarr militia uses armageddon fleets everyday, so the facts DO support that the armageddon is both infact the main ship of the fleet, and MORE used than the hyperion. come again tryhard

You see many more Amarr Militia pilots Plexing in frigates and mission running in stealth bombers. Because the Amarr Milita makes heavy use of them should stealth bombers now be considered an icon of Amarrian tradition?

We had the facts laid out to us directly by CCP, I'm sorry if you don't like them.

That right their, clearly indicates you do not have an alt in amarr militia. lol amarr in stealth bombers running missions.


Big smileBig smileBig smile

Your defense is interesting, considering you don't seem to have any success flying geddons. While your corp does use them, they don't use them nearly as often as say the Abaddon.

More to the point, EvE wide they are not often used. Now if you want to try and convince us that you are privy to better metrics than CCP has, well, good luck with that.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#1189 - 2013-04-13 18:26:55 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

I'm sorry, but when was the last time you saw a fleet based heavily on Armageddons?
Or a roaming BS group?
Or even a pirate camp?

I really liked the Armageddon, but it was redundant.

One thing it did have going for it was that it was cheap, but as pricing will be leveled that won't be a factor anymore.


Last time I have seen such fleet tonight in gonditsa, there was about 25 navy armageddons and 10 navy apocalypses and second one same night in fageras with 10 armageddons and few navy ones. + other ships ofc. And i know many of them is navy ones, which I believe will be next ones to be ruined.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1190 - 2013-04-13 18:33:05 UTC
Meduza13 wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

I'm sorry, but when was the last time you saw a fleet based heavily on Armageddons?
Or a roaming BS group?
Or even a pirate camp?

I really liked the Armageddon, but it was redundant.

One thing it did have going for it was that it was cheap, but as pricing will be leveled that won't be a factor anymore.


Last time I have seen such fleet tonight in gonditsa, there was about 25 navy armageddons and 10 navy apocalypses and second one same night in fageras with 10 armageddons and few navy ones. + other ships ofc. And i know many of them is navy ones, which I believe will be next ones to be ruined.

I wouldn't get too concerned yet, so far Navy variants have tended not to simply be boosted versions of their T1 hull in this re balance. We'll see.

And yes, Navy Armageddons are currently on a different level than the cheap but useful Armageddon.

No one ever said you "never" see them, they are a cheap and reasonably effective BS hull, but EvE wide they aren't used as often as other BS hulls (even when just considering Amarr).

Anecdotal evidence isn't very compelling.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#1191 - 2013-04-13 21:09:14 UTC
Meduza13 wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

I'm sorry, but when was the last time you saw a fleet based heavily on Armageddons?
Or a roaming BS group?
Or even a pirate camp?

I really liked the Armageddon, but it was redundant.

One thing it did have going for it was that it was cheap, but as pricing will be leveled that won't be a factor anymore.


Last time I have seen such fleet tonight in gonditsa, there was about 25 navy armageddons and 10 navy apocalypses and second one same night in fageras with 10 armageddons and few navy ones. + other ships ofc. And i know many of them is navy ones, which I believe will be next ones to be ruined.

Navy Geddons have been popular for years with certain npc nullsec groups, and FW pilots with too much money and LP.

The regular Geddon hasn't really been used in fleets beyond nulli secunda's 'panic geddons' which weren't really as good as one could wish for. A novel concept, that I wish had worked.

Although, if it worked and became common meta we'd probably die in the avalanche of progodlegend smug so maybe it's better this way.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#1192 - 2013-04-13 21:25:49 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

I'm sorry, but when was the last time you saw a fleet based heavily on Armageddons?


RvB - Eve Uni war, Battle at Aldrat, must have been late February or early March this year.

"Bring Navy Geddons or Geddons, or any other armor battleship if you can't fly those. Or any other battleship if you cannot fly armor. Or anything that can shoot if you cannot fly battleships. Or anything that can explode if you cannot shoot."
That's as close as it gets to a RvB fleet doctrine Cool
Our Geddon- heavy fleet was great and amazingly successful.
The old Geddon was as great concerning cost/ performance and I loved it dearly.

But since with the tiericide one of the main strengths of the Geddon- it's extremely low price- will disappear, I don't mind if this ship gets a total makeover now to try something new.
The niche "dirt-cheap resilient heavy laser platform" will simply no longer exist after the next expansion.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1193 - 2013-04-13 21:46:20 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Ruze wrote:

Obviously, we've had the Arbitrator for drone use. Our usage, over the years, of drones has increased per ship. As I mentioned in another post, even the Armageddon used to have a tiny drone bay.

We've also had ships that used missiles. If I remember correctly, several ships had a couple slots here and there, even the Apoc. Memory isn't what it used to be on that one.

Mind our tech 2 variants, and we've had cap warfare. And it also isn't uncommon for Amarrians to consider the Bhaalgorn to be an Amarr ship, due to it's style and flair.

The Dragoon is recent, sure. But I still feel like the Abaddon, Harbinger, and t3 Cruisers are a recent addition. Heck, the Prophecy and Coercer weren't added too long ago ...


My point was, there were no cap warfare tech1 amarr ships until Retribution. I did not say there were no drone boats in amarr lineup or no missile slots on amarr hulls.

Two more question, if you may.

What about sansha ships? Are they considered amarrian too "due to their style and flair"?

Obviously, following this logic we will see more amarr ships with lots of meds and only some lows, after all Curse is already doing it (H5/M6/L4).

I do want tech1 shield tanked amarrian ships. Big smile


I'll skip the questions, because they were obviously rhetorical and your point is proven.

And sadly, it does seem like we're getting shield tanked ships, more and more. With this new flow, even I will consider putting projective weapons on some of my Amarr ships or shield tanking them where they need to be.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1194 - 2013-04-13 22:13:49 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
While the Armageddon was good in it's role, that role was viewed as somewhat redundant...

Redundant? He just assigned new roles at random, with no respect to the current ship roles, and told us to **** off and chew the changes silently.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1195 - 2013-04-13 22:18:27 UTC
Askulf Joringer wrote:
I still think the geddon should become a laser dmg/drone dmg dps death machine :/. The nuet range bonus is going to cause a whole heap of teribad problems.

Don't need any bloody drones at all.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1196 - 2013-04-13 22:21:52 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
While the Armageddon was good in it's role, that role was viewed as somewhat redundant...

Redundant? He just assigned new roles at random, with no respect to the current ship roles, and told us to **** off and chew the changes silently.


I don't think it was random. The Geddon has evolved into a short range brawler over time, and the proposed changes would make it far meaner at that role, while also offering diversity in what weapons could be fit, the damage type used, and the weapons an Amarrian character can shift to.

If I HAD to stick with the new idea, I'd personally drop the neut bonus and give a large laser rate of fire/cap use bonus and make it a little more maneuverable. Keep it's slots (maybe six/4 turrets/launchers), but let it at least LOOK like a good old Amarrian boat with a drone infestation.

I damn sure wouldn't give it more mids to sacrifice lows, though. Drone ship or not, it's still Armor.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#1197 - 2013-04-13 22:36:30 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Sansha Ships do not use Amarrian hulls.

OK, I think I got it.

So Bhaalgorn is considered to be amarrian ship - because it use Amarrian hull. Sansha Ships do not use Amarrian hulls - so they are not considered amarrian ships.

From this logic we have: Cruor / Ashimmu are not amarrian ships - cause not amarrian hulls. So, if amarrian hulls are used by EoM ships they have to be considered amarrian ships.
EoM ships use blasters and shields, that mean we will see amarrian ships that use blasters and shields next. Excellent !

Can't wait for my shield/blaster Navy Apoc. Suck it gallente/minmatar you will be "silenced by the win and awesomeness amarr is once again bound to become." (Pattern Clarc)

Thank you balance! Cool

Ranger 1 wrote:

Amarr ships have always had a tendency to have a high utility slot. Being a cap oriented race these slots were always filled with a Neut/Nos (for obvious reasons), and this tendency was legitimized in the T2 lines. Since a well rounded Amarr pilot would always train for their use (or to fly Amarr hulls specifically bonused for them that no other race has) why would you not have them included at the BS level.

Ranger1 you mean high utility slots that were always filled with a Neut/Nos? I have nothing against high utility slots and I would like them included at the BS level.

Neut/Nos ship bonus on the other hand, well yes I do have a problem with that.
It was in tech2 line, it should have stayed in tech2 line.
Recently added tech1 amarrian destroyer is least used destroyer in the game. CCP stated that, not me. CCP showed to us those "different environments/metrics", not just said that they exist and have been "looked across".
So when out of the blue someone suggests to remake a working ship, ship that had a niche to something completely new, based on a least used concept, of course I will get concerned because that don't really make a lot of sense.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#1198 - 2013-04-13 22:40:42 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
While the Armageddon was good in it's role, that role was viewed as somewhat redundant...

Redundant? He just assigned new roles at random, with no respect to the current ship roles, and told us to **** off and chew the changes silently.


I don't think it was random. The Geddon has evolved into a short range brawler over time, and the proposed changes would make it far meaner at that role, while also offering diversity in what weapons could be fit, the damage type used, and the weapons an Amarrian character can shift to.

If I HAD to stick with the new idea, I'd personally drop the neut bonus and give a large laser rate of fire/cap use bonus and make it a little more maneuverable. Keep it's slots (maybe six/4 turrets/launchers), but let it at least LOOK like a good old Amarrian boat with a drone infestation.

I damn sure wouldn't give it more mids to sacrifice lows, though. Drone ship or not, it's still Armor.

Yeah, that would be nifty.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1199 - 2013-04-13 22:41:09 UTC
Aralieus wrote:
Let's all be honest here for a moment, nobody knows how these changes will affect Amarr BS's until we get our hands on them. I am seeing alot of opinions based on how things are today and the changes proposed of tomorrow, the bottom line is nobody knows until we get them in battle with the other races BS's that have been changed as well.

They already affect Amarr Empire. By the sheer evidence of heresy and treason.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1200 - 2013-04-13 23:10:33 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
And yes, Navy Armageddons are currently on a different level than the cheap but useful Armageddon.

No one ever said you "never" see them, they are a cheap and reasonably effective BS hull, but EvE wide they aren't used as often as other BS hulls (even when just considering Amarr).

Anecdotal evidence isn't very compelling.

This only reinforces the point, that changes were made at random. Unless you think, that apparent problem is a good argument in debate. (People dying of famine? Let's bomb them!)
Yes, many pilots don't use Armageddon, because "OGOGO +++DMG BONUS GREAT" Abaddon. To tell you the truth, if put on the same ground, Armageddon outperform Abaddon 5:4.
The problem is the "tiers", and associated sub-par base stats of the Armageddon (which is "Tier 1" BS).
And Armageddon don't really need much to fit into the role it ALREADY have.
Just 8/4/7 layout for prop module, a bit more HP, a bit more PG/CPU, small boost in cap regen to get up with the removal of cap usage bonus. The second bonus could be really anything: resists, tracking, AB/MWD cap use... except optimal, which is Apocalypse's flavor, and every one will help her in the role.
RoF bonus is more valuable, than Dmg, but it is largely offset by the increased capacitor use of the lasers, especially when using cap-intensive shortrange lenses. You have a strong burst damage, but you will struggle in any prolonged fight. To me, it sounds exactly like the description of Attack BS.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison