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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1101 - 2013-04-12 19:50:38 UTC
Kurron wrote:
Mr Hyde113 wrote:

I, along with most dedicated Amarr pilots, DID NOT WANT A 'NEW EXCITING (aka terribad) DIRECTION' FOR OUR RACE. Our direction (Lasers & Armour supplemented by drones) WAS FINE. We just wanted you to do some quality of life changes to let the ships fully complete their existing roles, not decide that Amarr is no longer Amarr.


Loudly proclaiming to be representing the majority doesn't make it so. The only concerns that I have with this re-balance center around lasers themselves needing to be changed - I suspect CCP's going to need to lower the cap use on them just a bit in general, now that they're no longer baking in a cap use reduction to every Amarr hull.

I'm greatly looking forward to taking my old Apoc and Geddon hulls out for a spin with these changes.

Spot on, check the new sticky out on this forum.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1102 - 2013-04-12 19:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Tonto Auri wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I looked across as many different environments/metrics as possible and this was a consistent theme.

I'm not afraid to tell you, what you can do with your environments and metrics, I just don't want to go through issues with ISD crew. I highly appreciate their time and work, but you are getting on my nerves.
Said that, you're looking into wrong direction. Amarr Empire IS NOT a Blood Raiders covenant. Until you digest this consideration, please don't come back and don't touch Amarr battleships.
And when you are ready to get back, keep in mind, that Armageddon and Apocalypse each have more backstory behind them, than any other BS (except Jove) can say for themselves. Speaking of Abaddon, it was added "just because of the tier", and in no position to compete.

At the risk of sounding harsh, you are straying deeply into "Don't confuse me with the facts" territory.

I'm sorry you don't personally like this direction, but to be blunt that's just it... your personal dislike for it... and you keep trying to justify your position. Frankly, it doesn't hold water.

There is more than enough justification in the Amarr ship line up to proceed along these lines.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1103 - 2013-04-12 20:04:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tonto Auri
All your "justification" could be taken down to a simple "STFU, we will make it happen". As it is, it's no more viable, than my position, as you pictured it.
I have no issues with drone Abaddon, if anything, it actually LOOKS like a drone boat. It even have launch bays. But I'm flat out against cap-sucking abomination in whatever hull it would happen - leave that atrocity to blood raiders.
Also, the proposed "oh, just use cap boosters, you'll be fine" idea simply idiotic.

P.S.
If you have something constructive to say, please do. With quotes from EVE lore, that warranting the abovementioned changes. Though, I would save you alot of time, if you just stop it and accept the clear fact, that two mainline Amarr BS should not change roles.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1104 - 2013-04-12 20:07:53 UTC
Ok, to prove my point about the Abaddon's cap issues. Amarr BS V, with the exception of the T2 spec skills which i have at 4, every gunnery skill on the market at V. Every single skill that in any way affects Cap, PG, CPU, and Maneuvarability at V. 2 5% cap implants in my Mission runner clone, and I still have to fit 3 T2 CCC rigs and 3 T2 cap rechargers to an abbadon to perma run it's T2 Megal Pulse and 1 Imp Nav Large Armor Repper, all tank mods are passive and not affecting cap. Now, explain to me how this does NOT prove that the Abbadon's cap issues are NOT too severe and something shouldn't be done about them?
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1105 - 2013-04-12 20:55:05 UTC
The new cheap armor tanked Rattlesnake. No idea why the phoon lost its drone bandwidth and the geddon kept its... will have less dps overall but could still work, and off course, structure bashing with no cap issues is always a good thing Lol
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#1106 - 2013-04-12 21:02:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashlar Vellum
Nalha Saldana wrote:

The Omen and Apoc is in the same line because they are both Attack ships, they have increased speed and good ranged damage for their class.

Ok the tormentor have been redesigned since i last looked at it and it doesn't really fit there anymore.

Dont go blind on the bonuses themselves and rather look at how the ships are used, amarr drone boats are really good neut boats and the Geddon fills this role really nicely this way.

Maybe it should be renamed to disruption but the stats are good so thats just a name change.


Yes they are both attack ships, but they never were nor will be in the same lineup.
Apoc was an oddball that didn't have a full lineup from the start, it was a sniper ship for long to mid range engagements.

Amarr attack lineup was like this:
Executioner > Omen > Armageddon (I could be wrong about Executioner)

Citation from Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time dev blog
"Attack vessels: Made for hit and run assault, or flanking opportunities. Have great damage and mobility, but average defense. Similar in role with cavalry. EVE examples: Armageddon, Megathron, Tempest, Oracle, Thorax, Hurricane, Dominix, Myrmidon."

Still don't believe me? Ok, here is one from Ship balancing winter update dev blog.
"Attack cruisers: Omen, Caracal, Thorax, Stabber. We want to clearly revamp these four ships to be dedicated to speed and damage. The Omen must be one of the most frustrating ships to fit so we are going to look at it. Like CCP Guard, it should be a mean miniaturized version of the Armageddon, not a public target for bad-taste midget tossing jokes."

So do tell me more how Armageddon is not from attack battleship lineup, but Apoc certainly is.

Nalha Saldana wrote:

Ok the tormentor have been redesigned since i last looked at it and it doesn't really fit there anymore.


Tormentor/Punisher > Maller > Abaddon (Apparently Tormentor is from combat lineup.)

"Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel" source.

So when you say "redesigned since you last looked" and "doesn't really fit there anymore"
do you mean redesigned from mining frig, and where did it fit earlier? Was it a drone boat at any point in the game? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Now to your last comment.
Nalha Saldana wrote:

Dont go blind on the bonuses themselves and rather look at how the ships are used, amarr drone boats are really good neut boats and the Geddon fills this role really nicely this way.


If I understand correctly your post, you say we need to destroy one fully functional lineup to make another one. And that new one is based on least used destroyer in the game (source).
Yeah, that is just a splendid idea!

ArrowRight now amarr ship lineup:

Combat ships lineup: Tormentor/Punisher > Maller > Abaddon (great)

Attack ships lineup: Executioner > Omen > We have No battleship here

Attack ships lineup2: None > None > Apocalypse

Support ships lineup: Crucifier > Dragoon > Arbitrator > GedDomi

CCP Rise I'm sorry but this is some weird balance shuffles you are doing.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1107 - 2013-04-12 21:05:48 UTC
[quote=Pelea Ming]Ok, to prove my point about the Abaddon's cap issues..../quote]
No ship that I am aware of can be cap-stable in the manner you want, and ships are generally balanced for PvP (hopefully without breaking its PvE ability) which means a lot of sacrifices .. BS are not lone wolves and it is more than reasonable to assume that cap will be available from logistics or injectors.
Up until the release of tier3 BCs the Abaddon was the go-to hull for anything with staying power, it is almost impossible to beat a well FC'ed Abaddon/Logistics crew without swarming or hot-dropping them.

As I said in the Big'uns Lazors thread: The proposed -10% is a good start but by my reckoning it will need to at least equal a rig (-20%) to have the desired effect of not forcing the cap-bonus-less hulls to only exist in fleets complete with pure buffers and guards everywhere.
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#1108 - 2013-04-12 21:09:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jezza McWaffle
Why couldnt get the Geddon get 5 highs, 6 meds and 8 lows, but only 4 turret hardpoints.

And keep the original drone bay.

Have these bonuses:

+5% to range of heavy neuts per level
+5% strength to tracking disruptors and webefiers

But give it the lowest armor HP, high base speed but also a high sig to even it all out.

Discuss?

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1109 - 2013-04-12 21:12:54 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I personally would rather see Abaddon take this new Drone/Neut role and remake the classics into attack/combat or w.e you call them, but I guess there would be many others who would go up in arms because of that. I guess you can't please everyone... but you can please me by doing the above! P
Seriously, classic... cmon! Don't take Mozart and turn into some punk rock music.

Looking forward to these changes coming to SiSi so we can actually test them with fire rather than play guessing games.


This is my exact feeling. I think the Abaddon would suit this role of drone/missile ship so much better. Simply switch the projected changes between the two and let us keep the Geddon doing what it does best .. blasting things with lots of lazers.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#1110 - 2013-04-12 21:22:44 UTC
Alice Saki wrote:
You better not break my bhaal.

My favourite ship in this damn game


dont worry all hell will break loose when the pirate facion ship changes come around ;)

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1111 - 2013-04-12 22:06:50 UTC
Ruze wrote:
This is my exact feeling. I think the Abaddon would suit this role of drone/missile ship so much better. Simply switch the projected changes between the two and let us keep the Geddon doing what it does best .. blasting things with lots of lazers.

Then I demand the Abaddon model be flatted to correspond with the Amarr drone ship style .. straight 50% ompression with resulting widening should suffice Big smile
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1112 - 2013-04-12 22:10:50 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Ruze wrote:
This is my exact feeling. I think the Abaddon would suit this role of drone/missile ship so much better. Simply switch the projected changes between the two and let us keep the Geddon doing what it does best .. blasting things with lots of lazers.

Then I demand the Abaddon model be flatted to correspond with the Amarr drone ship style .. straight 50% ompression with resulting widening should suffice Big smile



Turn it sideways!
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1113 - 2013-04-12 22:18:05 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Ruze wrote:
This is my exact feeling. I think the Abaddon would suit this role of drone/missile ship so much better. Simply switch the projected changes between the two and let us keep the Geddon doing what it does best .. blasting things with lots of lazers.

Then I demand the Abaddon model be flatted to correspond with the Amarr drone ship style .. straight 50% ompression with resulting widening should suffice Big smile


Seriously?

Honestly?

I'm all for this. I hate the flying beer keg.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1114 - 2013-04-12 22:31:07 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
[quote=Pelea Ming]Ok, to prove my point about the Abaddon's cap issues..../quote]
No ship that I am aware of can be cap-stable in the manner you want, and ships are generally balanced for PvP (hopefully without breaking its PvE ability) which means a lot of sacrifices .. BS are not lone wolves and it is more than reasonable to assume that cap will be available from logistics or injectors.
Up until the release of tier3 BCs the Abaddon was the go-to hull for anything with staying power, it is almost impossible to beat a well FC'ed Abaddon/Logistics crew without swarming or hot-dropping them.

As I said in the Big'uns Lazors thread: The proposed -10% is a good start but by my reckoning it will need to at least equal a rig (-20%) to have the desired effect of not forcing the cap-bonus-less hulls to only exist in fleets complete with pure buffers and guards everywhere.

And your point still doesn't "un-screw" those who want a laser boat mission runner.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1115 - 2013-04-12 22:33:04 UTC
As for all you people suggesting to use the Abaddon for a drone boat... at what point does a 75m3 drone bay and a 50 bandwidth ever suggest this ship was meant to be used heavily with drones?
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#1116 - 2013-04-12 22:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Meduza13
Ranger 1 wrote:
Meduza13 wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

We really have looked at them.

I think you will find its not a very painful shift - but again, public testing will give us a better idea.


Despite answers (finally) from CCP Rise im still not impressed. gallente with 8 slots and amarr with 7 becouse its "healthiest" ? And unless im mistaken CCP Rise said they have already" looked at changes", and not they ' going to look further at changes"

I dont mind changing Armageddon into something different personally - go for it CCP, something different is cool.

Im totally against not changing abadon for better, and I totally hate idea of nerfing it "becouse its too powerfull" and also hate not having 8 lows on any amarr battleship, when gallente has, becouse they cry a lot.

And to people who say logistics its too strong compared to local tank - ofc it is strong, becouse you have dedicated ships repping other ships, not just 1-2 local reppers. Thats the whole idea of logistics, isnt it?

The point being that when logistics are involved resistance bonuses are tremendously more powerful than local repair bonuses, it scales very badly and ensure that only resistance bonuses ships are used for fleet work. So an effort is being made to bring resistance bonused ship down a bit, and we'll see local rep bonus ships being buffed... possibly by making the repair bonus also affect incoming remote repair amount (we'll have to see).

I'd still like it if the option were explored to make ship bonuses either repair amount or raw armor/shield amount (like the Augoror)... reserving resistance bonuses for T2 boats. I think this would be much easier to balance over all.


Mate, i have no idea where did you get so many "likes" from, they must be all your alts, or all what you do in eve is writing on forums.
And ofc when logistics are involved resistance bonuses are tremendously (difficult word) more powerful than local rep bonuses, because as I said - there are ships dedicated to do job of 2-3 slots in case of local rep. And your statement about only bonused ships being used for fleet fights is just wrong.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1117 - 2013-04-12 22:36:47 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
As for all you people suggesting to use the Abaddon for a drone boat... at what point does a 75m3 drone bay and a 50 bandwidth ever suggest this ship was meant to be used heavily with drones?


It's less the fact the ship was designed to carry drones, and more the fact that people really love the Lasergeddon.

If you think about it from CCP terms, it actually makes pretty good sense too, since then they can completely remove the pesky flat armor resistance bonus from the game.

The only "reason" the armageddon was chosen to be the drone boat was because it already had a 125 bandwidth. Besides that, any one of the amarr ships could have been picked, though perhaps less likely to be the abaddon given it's current roles in fleets.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1118 - 2013-04-12 22:39:12 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:

It's less the fact the ship was designed to carry drones, and more the fact that people really love the Lasergeddon.


The Laser Geddon is an iconic ship in Eve. They might as well have said they were deleting the Rifter, Thorax, Drake, or Hurricane. I don't mind the new Geddorn, but it's damn sure not a ******* Armageddon. And I want my ******* Armageddon back.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1119 - 2013-04-12 22:43:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:

It's less the fact the ship was designed to carry drones, and more the fact that people really love the Lasergeddon.


The Laser Geddon is an iconic ship in Eve. They might as well have said they were deleting the Rifter, Thorax, Drake, or Hurricane. I don't mind the new Geddorn, but it's damn sure not a ******* Armageddon. And I want my ******* Armageddon back.

-Liang
How about somewhere in-between?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2874095#post2874095

Doesn't step on Domi's toes, keeps laser bonus, still has the new Neut bonus.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Mr Hyde113
#1120 - 2013-04-12 22:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Hyde113
Liang Nuren wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:

It's less the fact the ship was designed to carry drones, and more the fact that people really love the Lasergeddon.


The Laser Geddon is an iconic ship in Eve. They might as well have said they were deleting the Rifter, Thorax, Drake, or Hurricane. I don't mind the new Geddorn, but it's damn sure not a ******* Armageddon. And I want my ******* Armageddon back.

-Liang



This Sad

I've tried explaining in multiple posts and threads to CCP Rise why we don't need these changes but it comes down to this.

Not much logic to it but Ive been playing Amarr since 2005, and i'm attached to it.

You've taken my Abaddon, my Archon ...but please, don't take my Armageddon...*tear*

leave us our one reminder of what eve used to be Sad