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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#841 - 2013-04-11 10:45:42 UTC
Jack C Hughes wrote:
Nolove Trader wrote:
The more I think about the Apoc and it's intended role as an attack BS, the more I am falling for a 6 gun, 10% damage/level design of the ship:

Amarr Battleship skill bonus:

10% to Large Energy Turret Damage per level
7.5% to Large Energy Turret Optimal Range per level

Slot Layout: 7H, 4M, 8L; 6(-2) turrets, 2 launchers (for nostalgic value)
Fittings: 19000 PWG, 540 CPU
Defense (Shield / Armor / Hull): 6000 / 7000 / 7000
Capacitor ( Amount / Recharge Time / average recharge rate): 6400 / 1143 s / 5.6
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 113 / .119 / 97100000 / 16.02s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 73km/ 95 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Radar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 380

Why the damage bonus? Because the Apocalypse is an Attack Battleship, which are designed to hit hard and good. As it stands now, all other Attack BS share the attribute of having one damage bonus and a second weapon bonus, sometimes for damage projection (Raven, Apoc), sometimes for damage application (Megathron, Typhoon) and in the case of the Tempest going for all out damage. A further common trait is that none of them has a full rack of 8 turret/missile hardpoints, typicalle sporting 6 or 7 weapons, typically featuring 1 or 2 utility highs instead (with the exception of the Mega)

The current Apoc is very odd. Neither does it have a damage bonus, but it does have to feed 8 guns. Let's take a short look on the effective guns/launchers of the attack BS (for the sake of comparability at BS V):

Megathron: 9,3
Tempest: 10
Typhoon: 8
Raven: 8
Apoc(now): 8
Apoc(proposed): 9

Pro-Tipp why missile boats might suck: 8 effective launchers will not cut it in most cases. (Indeed no Missile BS has more than 9.3 effective launchers, while gun-BS cap at 11.6 effective turrets)

The proposed version will bring the Apoc more in line with the other gunnery ships in the attack line, while still trading raw damage against damage projection, which was the traditional strength of laser boats in the last years. The Apoc will especially amplify this role, becoming somewhat like a longrange-version of the Mega2.0, with identical slot design and comparable damage, while being geared more torwards range while the Mega will be the close-range alternative.

All in all, currently the Apoc feels like a bombardement BS that wasn't informed that there are no bombardement ships, only range-inclined attack vessels.


^^^^this is exactly what I want.



Then youa re insane. An apoc with 10% damage per level would be dealing over 1 thousand DPS at 50 km. Get real

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#842 - 2013-04-11 10:45:52 UTC
Gabriel Stipp wrote:
First i'd like to say that i like the new geddon. The new bonuses are great.

Then you are stupid.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#843 - 2013-04-11 10:48:04 UTC
Hulasikaly Wada wrote:

Its EM/Thermal only , cost huge cap, its almost impossible to fit

We need something to improve direct dmg

If the Abaddon is the combat Bs, we need something that can fight vs a Megathron or a Tempest


Hula



The geddon (new one ) can do that. Also the apoc wil become the RULER AND KING of anti support within 60 km. Any kiting ship will be obliterated. The Attack BC are goign tob e hit much ahrder by the new APOC than by the Rise nerf.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jack C Hughes
State War Academy
Caldari State
#844 - 2013-04-11 10:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack C Hughes
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Jack C Hughes wrote:
Nolove Trader wrote:
The more I think about the Apoc and it's intended role as an attack BS, the more I am falling for a 6 gun, 10% damage/level design of the ship:

Amarr Battleship skill bonus:

10% to Large Energy Turret Damage per level
7.5% to Large Energy Turret Optimal Range per level

Slot Layout: 7H, 4M, 8L; 6(-2) turrets, 2 launchers (for nostalgic value)
Fittings: 19000 PWG, 540 CPU
Defense (Shield / Armor / Hull): 6000 / 7000 / 7000
Capacitor ( Amount / Recharge Time / average recharge rate): 6400 / 1143 s / 5.6
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 113 / .119 / 97100000 / 16.02s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 73km/ 95 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Radar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 380

Why the damage bonus? Because the Apocalypse is an Attack Battleship, which are designed to hit hard and good. As it stands now, all other Attack BS share the attribute of having one damage bonus and a second weapon bonus, sometimes for damage projection (Raven, Apoc), sometimes for damage application (Megathron, Typhoon) and in the case of the Tempest going for all out damage. A further common trait is that none of them has a full rack of 8 turret/missile hardpoints, typicalle sporting 6 or 7 weapons, typically featuring 1 or 2 utility highs instead (with the exception of the Mega)

The current Apoc is very odd. Neither does it have a damage bonus, but it does have to feed 8 guns. Let's take a short look on the effective guns/launchers of the attack BS (for the sake of comparability at BS V):

Megathron: 9,3
Tempest: 10
Typhoon: 8
Raven: 8
Apoc(now): 8
Apoc(proposed): 9

Pro-Tipp why missile boats might suck: 8 effective launchers will not cut it in most cases. (Indeed no Missile BS has more than 9.3 effective launchers, while gun-BS cap at 11.6 effective turrets)

The proposed version will bring the Apoc more in line with the other gunnery ships in the attack line, while still trading raw damage against damage projection, which was the traditional strength of laser boats in the last years. The Apoc will especially amplify this role, becoming somewhat like a longrange-version of the Mega2.0, with identical slot design and comparable damage, while being geared more torwards range while the Mega will be the close-range alternative.

All in all, currently the Apoc feels like a bombardement BS that wasn't informed that there are no bombardement ships, only range-inclined attack vessels.


^^^^this is exactly what I want.



Then youa re insane. An apoc with 10% damage per level would be dealing over 1 thousand DPS at 50 km. Get real


It has only 6 + 3 turrets. I don't even know how will you deal 1000+ damage with abaddon, which has 8+2.
Gordon Esil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#845 - 2013-04-11 10:50:56 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Gabriel Stipp wrote:
First i'd like to say that i like the new geddon. The new bonuses are great.

Then you are stupid.

lol
Well, I was like: "He should not like the new changes :D" but I did not call him like that
Maybe he is a Gellente pilot who was looking for a way to switch to Amarr then saw the Neudromissageddon :D
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#846 - 2013-04-11 10:51:27 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Gordon Esil wrote:
If Abaddon is losing 1% resist at least make up for it with extra low slot to be able to either tank it or add cap recharger mod or damage mod to make up for the lost tank

Same goes for the Apocalypse, removed the cap use bonus, fine, but get something instead get another low slot and remove 1 high if you feel you don't want to make it overpowered (and don't add damage bonus), or since we are making a salad of races here how about getting 6 meds, 5 lows? - and maybe then that tracking bonus will find its good reason to stay there

Armageddon is a hopeless case, people are having 3 problems with it:
- Neut range bonus
- The fact it is becoming a Dominix
- New yellow looking old-Typhoon

Either you remove the missiles and give it some little damage or ROF bonus as role bonus for lasers
Either you reduce the neuting bonus range on it
Either you completely remove the neuting range bonus on it - keep drone boat role and bonus missiles and/or turrets (with cap)
Either you remove the drone boat role form it and bonus missiles and/or turrets

OR BETTER THAN ALL OF THIS, YOU CAN JUST LEAVE THAT ARMAGEDDON ALONE AS WE KNOW IT!!!

Amarr doesnt NEED a drone BS, we dont NEED a BS neut-platform, and we sure as hell dont NEED a MISSILE bs.

honestly, only 2 amarr battleships ive seen used in the last 6 months were the geddon adn the abaddon, and the geddon i saw used ALL THE TIME. people LIKED the old geddon. in fat, the geddon, at its pricetag, was the only real VIABLE battleship for new players to get into amarr battleships, it was cheap and easy to fit and be effective, with alot of room for fitting more advanced stuff. followed by the navy geddon, this hull has been an example of an amarr battleship, fo all intents and purposes, being done RIGHT.

your killing that ship CCP, if you want a multi-weapon no-real-bonus jack-of-all-trades BS, make a NEW HULL, dont just arbitrarily pick one and beat it to death.


Right after God said "let there be light", he said "and let amarr have drone ships".

We have a drone focused cruiser, battlecruiser, EAF and recons.

Neuts are one of amarr's disruption strategies. No other race has neut-based ships. Up until the dragoon [which I consider a steaming pile], there were only the recons and the sentinel.

People said the prophecy was going to be overpowered. I don't exactly see them blotting out the sun as was predicted.

While the dragoon, prophecy and now the geddon are a bit quirky, they give flexibility that amarr lacked. Having ships that aren't vulnerable to neuts + cap warfare is golden. These ships give options that amarr didn't have before. Imagine, those poor guys flying amarr and coming up against angel npcs can launch explosive drones and load explosive missiles.

The geddon was my favorite battleship. Of course, flying one in a fleet full of abaddons meant that you'd be the first to die.

And the geddon was/is not easy to fit. The apoc and abaddon had a much easier time fittings-wise.
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#847 - 2013-04-11 10:53:50 UTC
Won't lie i'm super excited about the new geddon.

the possibilities for this in smaller scale combat is quite exciting, this along with a tankier scorp (via it's extra low) and the new hyp means you might actually start to see BS roaming around again.

I get the feeling that once people get to have a proper look at some of these ships on SiSi they will realize that they are far more usable than what we currently have generally. rather than only ever seeing maybe half of the BS in space.

Alannah Thellere
T4x 3v45i0n 2.0
#848 - 2013-04-11 10:55:29 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Gordon Esil wrote:
If Abaddon is losing 1% resist at least make up for it with extra low slot to be able to either tank it or add cap recharger mod or damage mod to make up for the lost tank

Same goes for the Apocalypse, removed the cap use bonus, fine, but get something instead get another low slot and remove 1 high if you feel you don't want to make it overpowered (and don't add damage bonus), or since we are making a salad of races here how about getting 6 meds, 5 lows? - and maybe then that tracking bonus will find its good reason to stay there

Armageddon is a hopeless case, people are having 3 problems with it:
- Neut range bonus
- The fact it is becoming a Dominix
- New yellow looking old-Typhoon

Either you remove the missiles and give it some little damage or ROF bonus as role bonus for lasers
Either you reduce the neuting bonus range on it
Either you completely remove the neuting range bonus on it - keep drone boat role and bonus missiles and/or turrets (with cap)
Either you remove the drone boat role form it and bonus missiles and/or turrets

OR BETTER THAN ALL OF THIS, YOU CAN JUST LEAVE THAT ARMAGEDDON ALONE AS WE KNOW IT!!!

Amarr doesnt NEED a drone BS, we dont NEED a BS neut-platform, and we sure as hell dont NEED a MISSILE bs.

honestly, only 2 amarr battleships ive seen used in the last 6 months were the geddon adn the abaddon, and the geddon i saw used ALL THE TIME. people LIKED the old geddon. in fat, the geddon, at its pricetag, was the only real VIABLE battleship for new players to get into amarr battleships, it was cheap and easy to fit and be effective, with alot of room for fitting more advanced stuff. followed by the navy geddon, this hull has been an example of an amarr battleship, fo all intents and purposes, being done RIGHT.

your killing that ship CCP, if you want a multi-weapon no-real-bonus jack-of-all-trades BS, make a NEW HULL, dont just arbitrarily pick one and beat it to death.


Yes, this, very. A neut bonus instantly consigns a ship to use in relatively large-scale PVP actions (you know, the battles most people seem to be complaining about because they're so rare.) And that's only if the community number-crunching opinion is that it's the best choice or it happens to fit some doctrine or something. Otherwise, it means that it will never get used. Ever.

Why not differentiate them more broadly by range or something, instead of the same "one attack, one brawler, one niche drone thing" for every race? Give the Abaddon longer range turrets/targeting and some kind of sentry drone bonus, leave the Armageddon mostly alone, and give the Apocalypse the attack battleship agility a smaller cap that recharges fast, along with tracking bonuses, a faster MJD cooldown, and some built-in core stabilization or something, I don't know.

But most of all, if you HAVE to do something weird, make it something creative that doesn't doom the ship to a tiny, constrained use. And please do it to one of the less accessible hulls.
Luke Hammarskjold
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#849 - 2013-04-11 10:58:25 UTC
This changes will make the ammar ships even more relaying on cap... this is actually really killing them...
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#850 - 2013-04-11 11:00:09 UTC
I'm pretty disheartened that the only two Dev responses to this thread were one trolling, nitpicking post and one "I didn't read all this **** and I'm sticking to my guns no matter what is said" post. That's how it felt like. I already pointed out this miniscule cap/s improvement on Apoc does not balance out the lack of cap use bonus. Not by a long shot.

Armageddon received a lot of very varying responses, all the way from niche toyship to uberkillboat. That might be biased of me and lack any basis, but I feel people liking this change don't fly Amarr regularly. It had it's niche as drone (unbonused) supported cheap brawler, that's being thrown out the window (despite earlier dev post stating Amarr BSes are fine as they are!) in favor of some unholy amalgamation of Dominix and Bhaalgorn. I guess only time will tell if it was a good idea - I feel this one has the highest chance of getting shoved down our collective throat, as it bears all the marks of a beloved pet idea.

Apocalypse is the ship I feel most strongly about - along with purely PvP-standpoint praising it theres a huge issue of the new players and cap issues even for vet characters. The proposed change to 6 10% damage bonused turrets might be a good solution (especially if coupled with some laser revamp), although I'm more in a favor of retaining the old bonuses. It's also the best recipient for the 8th lowslot (why the heck are Gallente getting 8low BSes and Amarr not?). This one has a moderate change of getting some changes.

Abaddon didn't get changed much, so not much to sy about here. It's of course plagued by standard laser issues but these are not hull-specific problems.

Also, anyone here witnessed the Cruiser tiericide? It happened just before I started playing so I missed it. I was present and watchign during Battlecruiser one and it didn't seem to evoke so much heated flamewars as this (from my POV) failure of a BS tiericide.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#851 - 2013-04-11 11:00:33 UTC
monkfish2345 wrote:
Won't lie i'm super excited about the new geddon.

This means, you haven't used the old one.
And no amount of praise would change the fact, that destroying current role allocation is not gonna make anyone, who's using current hulls, happy.

Templar Dane wrote:
The geddon was my favorite battleship. Of course, flying one in a fleet full of abaddons meant that you'd be the first to die.

And the geddon was/is not easy to fit. The apoc and abaddon had a much easier time fittings-wise.

If Armageddon has issues, they can be helped. But not to the point of removing the ship from the role and throwing it out of the window.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Gabriel Stipp
Die Rentnergang
#852 - 2013-04-11 11:01:57 UTC
Ok ok for all the guys out there hating me for liking the new geddon:
I don't like loosing it as a laser ship. Just wanted to find one good aspect in the new ships.
Maybe it would be ok to have the old ship with a drone bonus in exchange for the cap Bonus......
Just an idea don't hit me ^^

Denken hilft!
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#853 - 2013-04-11 11:04:29 UTC
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
Also, anyone here witnessed the Cruiser tiericide? It happened just before I started playing so I missed it. I was present and watchign during Battlecruiser one and it didn't seem to evoke so much heated flamewars as this (from my POV) failure of a BS tiericide.

Because, quite frankly, BC changes weren't destructive. They were based on principle of consolidation and buildup on existing bonuses, with few exceptions. (Prophecy, which noone were using, now have her own role, as example.)
With BS, the situation is completely opposite. CCP Rise changing currently established ship roles at random, pretending to be smart. You know, what word I was going to use.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#854 - 2013-04-11 11:07:06 UTC
Gabriel Stipp wrote:
Ok ok for all the guys out there hating me for liking the new geddon:
I don't like loosing it as a laser ship. Just wanted to find one good aspect in the new ships.
Maybe it would be ok to have the old ship with a drone bonus in exchange for the cap Bonus......
Just an idea don't hit me ^^

Armageddon don't need bloody drone bonus. (As much as I love drones, I'm not a moron.)
Armageddon is a clear example of how Amarr Attack Battleship should work. It have mobility issues, which can be helped by moving one of the slots to the mid, and need some PG/CPU love to help fitting prop mod, but othervise it is ALREADY FREAKIN' GOOD ATTACK BS. Why everyone so blind as not seeing it, tell me?

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Jack C Hughes
State War Academy
Caldari State
#855 - 2013-04-11 11:11:48 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Gabriel Stipp wrote:
Ok ok for all the guys out there hating me for liking the new geddon:
I don't like loosing it as a laser ship. Just wanted to find one good aspect in the new ships.
Maybe it would be ok to have the old ship with a drone bonus in exchange for the cap Bonus......
Just an idea don't hit me ^^

Armageddon don't need bloody drone bonus. (As much as I love drones, I'm not a moron.)
Armageddon is a clear example of how Amarr Attack Battleship should work. It have mobility issues, which can be helped by moving one of the slots to the mid, and need some PG/CPU love to help fitting prop mod, but othervise it is ALREADY FREAKIN' GOOD ATTACK BS. Why everyone so blind as not seeing it, tell me?


Yes it is a good one, even my favourate one in Amarr BS.

The problem is just CCP don't like it, or don't like to have 3 laser ships.

Which for me is absolutly okay as that is what Amarr is.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#856 - 2013-04-11 11:21:30 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Gabriel Stipp wrote:
Ok ok for all the guys out there hating me for liking the new geddon:
I don't like loosing it as a laser ship. Just wanted to find one good aspect in the new ships.
Maybe it would be ok to have the old ship with a drone bonus in exchange for the cap Bonus......
Just an idea don't hit me ^^

Armageddon don't need bloody drone bonus. (As much as I love drones, I'm not a moron.)
Armageddon is a clear example of how Amarr Attack Battleship should work. It have mobility issues, which can be helped by moving one of the slots to the mid, and need some PG/CPU love to help fitting prop mod, but othervise it is ALREADY FREAKIN' GOOD ATTACK BS. Why everyone so blind as not seeing it, tell me?


Because of tiericide it would be about the same price as an abaddon. Even if they did what you ask, who would fly the geddon over the abaddon?
Gabriel Stipp
Die Rentnergang
#857 - 2013-04-11 11:27:09 UTC
Hm to be honest i won't ^^
The abaddon is the reason i came to eve.
So just let everything as it is an give me a navy abaddon! Big smile

Denken hilft!
Hulasikaly Wada
DO.IT
I.N.D.E.P.E.N.D.E.N.T
#858 - 2013-04-11 11:44:44 UTC

Going to get a lot of dislikes :
Want a combat fleet Bs ? remove % dmg bonus on abaddon and replace it with 10% cap use on laser Xlvl

Want an attack Bs? Give 7 turret Apoc +5% Dmg and -5% RoF with 5 med slots
If it have to be slow and use cap booster costantly i want to melt stuffs

Leave Armageddon as a drone/neut boat, can live with it...


Hula
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#859 - 2013-04-11 12:00:19 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
Also, anyone here witnessed the Cruiser tiericide? It happened just before I started playing so I missed it. I was present and watchign during Battlecruiser one and it didn't seem to evoke so much heated flamewars as this (from my POV) failure of a BS tiericide.

Because, quite frankly, BC changes weren't destructive. They were based on principle of consolidation and buildup on existing bonuses, with few exceptions. (Prophecy, which noone were using, now have her own role, as example.)
With BS, the situation is completely opposite. CCP Rise changing currently established ship roles at random, pretending to be smart. You know, what word I was going to use.


I think that might be the gist of thing.

BC tiericide remade a uselss bait ship into something actually useful, hacked away Cane's dominance and brought Drake a little bit more in line with others.

BS tiericide is a flaming ball of death and forced changes to already well working and well-loved ships.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#860 - 2013-04-11 12:02:59 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
Gabriel Stipp wrote:
Ok ok for all the guys out there hating me for liking the new geddon:
I don't like loosing it as a laser ship. Just wanted to find one good aspect in the new ships.
Maybe it would be ok to have the old ship with a drone bonus in exchange for the cap Bonus......
Just an idea don't hit me ^^

Armageddon don't need bloody drone bonus. (As much as I love drones, I'm not a moron.)
Armageddon is a clear example of how Amarr Attack Battleship should work. It have mobility issues, which can be helped by moving one of the slots to the mid, and need some PG/CPU love to help fitting prop mod, but othervise it is ALREADY FREAKIN' GOOD ATTACK BS. Why everyone so blind as not seeing it, tell me?


Because of tiericide it would be about the same price as an abaddon. Even if they did what you ask, who would fly the geddon over the abaddon?


And if they changed the slot layout to what he wants on top of that, then the Armageddon just turns into an inferior Abaddon anyway. All it will have going for it is player affection.