Player Features and Ideas Discussion

^^^^ This, lmao.

Which is not near enough to counter it's loss of the hull bonus to reduce cap draw of it's lasers.

Give each race a new E-War battleship and the Caldari a new COMBAT battleship.

;)

Actually, this, I like. It would let people keep the 'Geddon in it's own role without stepping all over the Domi's toes, and instead introduce something along the lines of the proposed geddon change on a new hull.

Only downside to this is, it would break up the current eve theme of 3 ships to each T1 size category (dessies being the current sole exception at only 2)

Right, and I don't think you're trying to marginalize T2 hulls, but that is the effect when you give T1 hulls neuting capabilities. On a side note, I think it makes sense to have missile introduction on T1 hulls, because there are ships across the T2 spectrum that use missiles, and missiles have their own training supports. (I know I don't use a sacrilege or a HAM Legion, for example, because I don't have many missile skills trained.) But there's certainly no need for cap warfare-related bonuses on T1 hulls, since "Energy Emission Systems" doesn't require any unique supports.

Personally, I think that Amarr drone boats should have gone another route with their bonuses--not necessarily in TD, since hulls already support that bonus. Perhaps a double drone bonus? A laser cap bonus? Since T1 hulls are oriented toward lower-skilled pilots, a double drone bonus would have fit the dragoon well, or, hell, even an out-of-the-box bonus like +afterburner speed (pulled from the Legion's sub). This way, AB-sig-tanking that the Zealot is known for could have worked its way into the T1 lineup to further show that playstyle, and the hull would have been bonused for drone damage for its damage output.

Just some quick thoughts there, but there were many, many that we (and CCP) could have collectively brainstormed on that aren't necessarily using the T2 "variety" of bonuses.

what is this the pela ranger blog? delete some of that crap I became dissintersted in seeing peoples opinions because the post is jammed up with their blathering.

Losing the hull bonus increases cost of running 8 Mega pulse lasers with Scorch and two heat sinks by 26 cap/sec. You need to at the very least drop a tracking computer for an extra recharger. Maybe T2 one of the CCC rigs as well. Assuming a PvE fit to start with.

THIS.

Just wondering, but how is a neut bonused bs not a disruption bs?

I am concerned about how the change to the Armageddon will amplify a subtle imbalance in neuting mechanics.

One of the excellent mechanics of EVE is that larger ships have damage penalties against smaller ships, dependent on target speed and target signature radius. With energy neutralizers the effect is quite the opposite - not only are absolute neutralization effects the same regardless of target ship, neuts are inordinately effective against targets smaller than yourself. The capacitor cost to yourself is on the order of magnitude of the ship you are flying, and the neutralized amount on the target ship is also scaled to the order of magnitude of the ship you are flying. In other words a BS with a heavy neut only takes ~10% of his capacitor to cycle his neut, but if he is using that neut on a frigate it will neut 100% of that frigate's capacitor.

The primary purposes for neuts are:

1) Neut out capital ships
2) Turning off the guns/active tank of a single/small number of ships
3) Neut off tackle in small gang situations
4) Neut out logistics

---

1) As I am concerned with what happens when a larger ship neuts a smaller ship, the way neuts interact with capitals is not an issue.

2) I am also not particularly concerned here, as this is primarily relevant in ganks. You cannot efficiently neut out a single other ship of equal size to you to turn off the tank/guns, and you cannot neut out a large number of smaller targets unless you dedicate many more than just your utility highs to neuts.

3) This is an interesting and legitimate use that I would be unhappy if any changes I propose invalidate this.

4) This is my main concern. Heavy neuts are already very effective against cruiser-sized logistics, taking ~3 heavy neuts to completely neut out a logistics ship. This can currently be done out to a range of 25km. At the moment it is difficult to fill out your highs with heavy neuts on the drone boats that essentially have lots of utility high slots (Dominix...). However with the proposed Armageddon change you have a damn good reason to fit 6x heavy neuts, which looks like can be done quite easily fitting wise along with a full tank and capacitor boosters. It will be able to neut out 2 logistics cruisers at 36km. This means it can quite easily reach out and touch someone after jumping through a gate, and after being neuted out the ship has a difficult time turning on its MWD to run. The only defense the cruiser has is the lock time of the BS, and even that could quite reasonably be reduced depending on fit. On the whole this additional range combined with the already profound impact heavy neuts have on cruisers screws with the logistics dynamic in a way that I do not believe is intended.

---

Main proposed change

Reverse the ranges of small/medium/heavy neuts.

Small: ~25 km
Medium: ~15 km
Heavy: ~8 km

Yes, battleships are slow and makes it harder to get in range with heavy neuts. Their primary target should not be ships smaller and therefore faster than themselves, but ships equal to or larger than themselves (BS and caps). It should be more difficult to get in range, and it should require conscious effort. A carrier isn't getting away. It should not be jumping through a gate and getting to immediately be 100% effective against anything in the gate radius.

This also has the effect of forcing an additional tradeoff in fitting the utility high in solo/small gang BS. No longer is it a no-brainer to put a heavy neut in the utility high of whatever the new equivalent of your solo geddon is Kil2 :P. You have to either put a heavy neut that will be effective against other brawlers, or fit a smaller neut that has the range to neut off tackle that are kiting at range. This will also impact frig warfare, but I think a longer neut range will make things more interesting in the current binary meta of either kite at 20km or go balls deep with short range weapons.

Give the Armageddon a 7.5% neut amount/level bonus, making it a mini Bhaalgorn which gets a 15% bonus. This gives it an edge in neuting out targets as large or bigger than it (screw you triage carriers) without having to spend for a faction BS. Combined with the other change it also means that it can do a lot of damage to logistics grouped up (AB logistics orbiting gates/anchors) but requires positioning and finesse.

---

Additional solutions

A) Significantly buff capacitor batteries in their neut protection role. While not utterly awful, they are not nearly good enough to warrant precious mid slots on current logistics ships. For the mid slots you have to consider a prop mod, a tank on the Basilisk and Scimitar, capacitor recharge on the Oneiros and Scimitar, and ECCM modules that are practically required against swarms of ECM drones even after the sensor strength buff via skill change. It's incredibly difficult to justify a capacitor battery as an anti-neut mechanism in their current state. I am all for creative fittings (and trust me, getting a capacitor battery on logistics would make some creative fittings) and trade-offs, but a 12.5% reflect, cap recharge sub-par to a recharger, and 700GJ cap bonus (only 100GJ more than a single heavy neut) does not cut it as an actual energy neut defense.

B) Logistics battleships. This makes a ridiculous amount of sense, even in conjunction with the other changes. A larger capacitor pool and additional slots make it more difficult to be neuted out by heavy neuts at the expense of a slower, more expensive ship. It allows for the trade-off decision between cruiser-sized logistics and battleship-sized logistics, like choosing between AHACs and armor BS. Even if you already had plans for such ships, I urge you to consider rolling out neut changes as closely as possible to the release of this hull.