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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#381 - 2013-04-09 12:57:24 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

SMT008 wrote:
God damn the amount of stupidity in this thread....

Yes Amarr ships are good in blobs, we already covered that .. problem is that it will be their only function, perpetual blob ships (when people run out of tier3 BC at any rate) with very little hope outside .. all the other races are made viable in all size engagement. Only the Geddon will ever cross a null border as it alone has any hope (however slim) against the competition.

Having three laser ships is not a problem, Amarr is lasers for christs sake. The only deviations (until tiericide) was a single frig and the eWar platforms .. there is plenty of variation possible with an all (or mostly) gun layout.
The changes since tiericide has completely ignored nine years of lore as pertains to racial flavours, no wonder the evelopedia is hopelessly behind as they will quite literally have to rewrite everything which is a lot.


What do you call a blob ? Is it 30+ ?

Abaddons are used in lowsec warfare as fleet ships, but also as small gang flagships or as part of 10-15 battleship packs.

Apocalypse are never used anywhere for PVP, simple as that. Better get an Abaddon or a Navy Apoc.

Armageddons were good in small gang and will continue to be so, but differently.

The proposed changes make Amarrs viable in all size engagement, simple as that. The tracking bonus on the Apocalypse makes it more potent, and the fact that it can shoot at 70km+ with Scorch makes it very powerful against smaller-faster hulls. You could undock 2 of those and make a small sized nanogang leave the undock.

The Armageddon becomes a small gang BS powerhouse. Ain't that what we call "viable in all size engagement" ?

Having 3 laser ships is a problem. Caldaris are missiles, right ? How come they have a Ferox ? Or a Rokh ? Why would those two ships have freakin' turrets ?!

That's just how it is. If you can find a role for the Armageddon, that involves using turrets, without it being worse than either the Abaddon or the Apocalypse, then it's alright. But you can't. If it's a brawling machine, it will be worse than the heavier Abaddon. If it's a sniping machine, then it will be worse than the Apocalypse at it. If it's a med-range machine, it will also be worse than the Apocalypse.

There is no way you can have 3 laser battleships without having them overlapping each other.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#382 - 2013-04-09 13:17:38 UTC
There is a distinct lack of a dev response in this thread: I've counted nearly 15 responses to the Gallente thread to which I pull this quote:

CCP Rise wrote:
I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big.


Not so much to comment on/missed anything big? I would say from below your first (and only) post, CCP Rise, onwards is where you need to comment on.

Please talk to us. You seem far far more concerned about the Gallente line than any others. Understandable to a degree, but without anything coming back towards us, it makes for a terrifying prospect: That you don't give a damn.

Some of us want to know that this game is not going to become EVECraft Online. With these changes currently, you undermine the abilities of TWO seperate ships; The Bhaalgorn and the Dominix, and give the ship your replacing them with too much to handle.

You also remove the safety net from the Armageddon/Apocalypse with the laser cap bonus. The Abaddon never had it anyway, and that was its weakness.

I don't want to have the Amarrian ships as Ultra-All-Powerful ships; that would make the game boring. Conversely, changing their designs so radically is just as painful.


Small changes first:

General

- Dropping the launchers from the Apoc/Abaddon: Fine, never needed those launchers anyway.


Armageddon - ATTACK Battleship (Not a Combat Battleship)

- Reduce the Drone Bay of the Geddon down. Its doesn't need to be that huge. Thats role of the Dominix. 150m³ is large enough
- Remove the 10% Bonus to drones, return to 5% ROF for the lasers. Drop the launchers.
- If you are so damned fixated on giving us a Neuting boat, make that the T2 Abaddon. Drop the Neut bonuses for below:
- Give the geddon a 5% Armour bonus (In line with the Auguoror)
- Drop the speed to 100m/s
- Lower the targeting range to 55km.

Apocalypse - COMBAT Battleship (Not an Attack Battleship)

- Remove the 7.5% tracking bonus from the Apoc. Give it back the 10% Laser Cap
- The Apocalyse is to return to its previous Shield/Armour/Hull values.
- Increase the Sig Radius
- Less Agility
- Drop scan res to 90mm

Abaddon - ATTACK Battleship

- Return the resist value to 5%
- Decrease Armour/Shield/Hull value by 5%
- Reduce locking range to 70km's


As you can see, these changes are small, and enough so that each ship has a role - The Armageddon takes the flack of the enemy fire whilst giving back some punishment - the Apocalypse targets those priority targets at ranges and blasts them back - the Abaddon pushes forwards and blazes all hell into the middle of the enemy.

If they don't suit them, alter them a little bit at a time - you don't dive headfirst into a well to see if there is water in it.


Again, I won't be around much until later on. Peel these thoughts apart if you so wish. lets hope they read this.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Trash Ice
Tesla Cat
#383 - 2013-04-09 13:22:20 UTC
Lenier Chenal wrote:
range + damage bonus on the apoc

yay \0/

geddon confuses me Shocked
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#384 - 2013-04-09 13:23:33 UTC
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:

Yeah, because you totally need to train up that many capacitor skills for other races, for example Minmatar. They need such a huge number of skillpoints to allow their guns to keep firing without running out of cap! Oh, wait...


Of course minmatar can instantly swap to an ammo with a 50% optimal bonus at the drop of a hat, oh wait...

But seriously, I do agree that all BS's, especially amarr need a much much much bigger capacitor, like 50% more than they have now, it shouldn't, nor is it mandatory with any other ship class to fit a cap booster just to keep your guns going.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Din Chao
#385 - 2013-04-09 13:24:31 UTC
So... I guess my Navy Geddon just became worthless...
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#386 - 2013-04-09 13:25:15 UTC
Abaddon : the nerf is unneeded , it gets tank ,and dmg for everything else

Apoc : havent seen any apoc lately, sniper fleets are gone :( , the tracking is good thou,seems good on paper

geddon : ah the typhoon syndrome , amarr taking over gall's drone style why?
especially as i like the current geddon, i would make apoc be the nos boat , and geddon the attack pulse laser dps of death
btw this ship seems op at least for small fleets
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#387 - 2013-04-09 13:25:37 UTC
Din Chao wrote:
So... I guess my Navy Geddon just became worthless...


Lucky, your Navy Geddon is safe - it pulls its bonuses from a different list.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#388 - 2013-04-09 13:26:44 UTC
Are the faction versions of these battleships also going to have these changes ?
Since you forgot to give the cruiser changes to the faction version aswell, for example the scythe fleet issue still seems to be a missile/projectile ship.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#389 - 2013-04-09 13:31:28 UTC
[quoteAre the faction versions of these battleships also going to have these changes ?][/quote]

The Faction ships are drawn from a seperate table - their values are going to be untouched for the time being.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#390 - 2013-04-09 13:35:28 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
I'd like to re-voice my support the new Armageddon. While some players are sad to see the missioning Apoc go, I'd like to point out that the Armageddon could easily take its place, using range-bonused Nos on NPCs to sustain a beastly active tank while using capless missile/drone fire that has great range projection . I currently use a missile/drone Typhoon with Noses for running C3 anoms solo, and I can definitely see myself switching to this sweet new Geddon for that very same task. I like my utility highs and my capacitor warfare, and I think those are very underrated things.

A long time ago I heard the "fun" begins when you hit T2 ships for Amarr, since they can offer something "special" rather than just lasers/armor. I'm definitely very glad to see special "neat tricks" being added to T1 hulls!

Heavy neuts, drones, and thick armor are great IMO. I've been specializing in the Dragoon/Arbitrator type hulls for a little while now, and definitely look forward to something beefier for heavier gangs.

<3 these changes

you can also just fit projectile turrets to it, or if you want to pretending your sniping with your drones, lots of dron range augmentors, etc, etc, lots of possibilities.
Din Chao
#391 - 2013-04-09 13:38:16 UTC
Arline Kley wrote:
Din Chao wrote:
So... I guess my Navy Geddon just became worthless...


Lucky, your Navy Geddon is safe - it pulls its bonuses from a different list.

Understood, but I meant as a ratting ship.

Better drone bay + bonuses. Plus the flexibility of turrets or missiles. 2 utility highs. Slightly more cap. It may not completely replace it, but it's definitely a cheaper option. Gonna be fun to play with.
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#392 - 2013-04-09 13:39:00 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:

Yeah, because you totally need to train up that many capacitor skills for other races, for example Minmatar. They need such a huge number of skillpoints to allow their guns to keep firing without running out of cap! Oh, wait...


Of course minmatar can instantly swap to an ammo with a 50% optimal bonus at the drop of a hat, oh wait...

But seriously, I do agree that all BS's, especially amarr need a much much much bigger capacitor, like 50% more than they have now, it shouldn't, nor is it mandatory with any other ship class to fit a cap booster just to keep your guns going.


Glad we agree then. I hate using cap boosters. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Really, I just want a relatively fresh player (by the time these changes hit I plan to be flying a T3 so it's not about me) to be able to run his guns and hardeners with an occasional repper pulse or two without capping out in 3 minutes flat. Not all that much, is it? Whether this is achieved by hull bonus to laser cap use or large and powerful native cap recharge is a secondary issue.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#393 - 2013-04-09 13:39:57 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
I feel like if the new geddon is to follow the line of Arbitrator/Prophecy, it should be a 6H 4M 8L slot layout.

It would give it more room to fit tank, since it's supposed to be a front line combat ship. While still having room to focus on drone damage over weapons. It would also be limiting its max neut throughput, making it step less on the toes of the Bhaal while keeping its new range niche.

Though on some level, I expected that the Abaddon would be the Battleship Prophecy followup. While the Geddon kept the lasers with a rate of fire bonus and replaced the cap use bonus with drone damage. But that would make for some ridiculous damage potential.

The Apoc feels like it needs more power grid. An Oracle can fit a full rack of T2 Tachyons with 233 power to spare - plenty to fit its 10mn prop mod and an assortment of other modules. The Apoc, even after the +500 grid will be 3450 power short just to fit just the full rack of T2 Tach. The change barely allows you to fit a no-prop paper Apoc with T2 Tachyons - after you put a T2 reactor control in a low slot. You shouldn't need two power rigs just to fit the dedicated sniper battleship for sniping. Especially when a battlecruiser already fits them just fine, with a damage bonus. Though I guess with range and tracking being the bonuses, one could argue the Apoc is meant as a Pulse platform and is not meant to actually fit beams at all.

6H 5M 8L to make it match the current philosphy of 19 slots on T1 BS.
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#394 - 2013-04-09 13:43:02 UTC
Arline Kley wrote:
[quoteAre the faction versions of these battleships also going to have these changes ?]


The Faction ships are drawn from a seperate table - their values are going to be untouched for the time being. [/quote]


Then they are not balancing anything, they are just making the tech 1 versions overpowered compared to the faction versions.
Which is wrong, since a faction ship should be better ( always has been ) then a normal version.

They are making the same mistake they made with the cruiser logistics.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#395 - 2013-04-09 13:43:57 UTC
Crash Lander wrote:
There are exactly 2 ships in the game that can fit tachs properly:
1) Paladin: Barely can, it gets Powergrid issues if you try to be creative.
2) Nightmare: fine. This ship frankly makes all Amarr battleships obsolete for PvE including 1). The ultimate expression of how useless armor tanking is within the realm of PvE.

Both are 100% bonused/half rack ships. If I were to go on a limp I would say they don't intend to change this and tachs will remain for those two ships. Everyone else gets pulse or beams.

actually, at max skills, the nightmare is a 125% bonused half rack, and, you missed the bhaalgorn in your rant, it's also a 100% bonused half rack boat that can go full tachs without issues and fit a good armor tank.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#396 - 2013-04-09 13:48:09 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
If the changes to geddon carries over to the faction version... RIP the only proper Amarr PVE Battleship.

Your kidding me, right? If you know what your doing, the 'Baddon makes a great PVE ship. Even if your low skilled, use some LP to get some cap implants.

Wtf are you on about? Baddon has nowhere near the dps and the tank capability of a navy geddon, even napocs doesn't have them. By your logic every ship on the Amarr BS line is a "great" PVE ship. That's hardly relevant.

Of course it's relevant, and, yes, if you know what your doing with fitting and implants and skill levels, any of the ships can be made into good L4 mission runners. Hell, there was a period of time I was even running L4's solo in a Harbinger just for lulz.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#397 - 2013-04-09 13:48:09 UTC
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Sakkar Arenith wrote:
Well, thats quite something!

Lasers:

We really ought to talk about lasers, we really need a flat out -25% or even -33% cap use on ALL lasers. As is amarr ships are capping out way to fast, and that leaves them quite sub par with their counterparts.

Especially since we are all hailing king Hyperion and Pope megathorn now. Lasers as they are now simply dont offer enough of a benefit to offset that cap malus.

Yeah scorch is nice, bla bla (its the only reason lasers are even remote viable anyway...), but lasers use too much cap, in both pve and pvp settings.

And lets put it like that; even if you were to cut laser cap by 50%, you still wouldnt see myrmidons or dominixes fir lasers, despite omg-op-h4x-scorch....


Surely has been cleared already, but use discharge elutrations and a cap booster! All the amarr pilots I know don't complain in the slightest once they fitted that stuff ♥



Also, I'm extremely happy this new Geddon is coming in summer, and not just for christmas. Cause that thing belongs under a tree.

I'm unable to comment fleet warfare, so abaddon looks totally fine for me, given it was a decent ship to boot.
The apoc though... holy crappers. Tracking Bonus appears as a huge deal for me, especially in a moment of apocs vs. missile-spouting battlecruisers, this could tip the balance a lot.


Back to the geddon: Are you mental? This Geddon is working exactly the niche that the curse had for itself, though 10times the mass. Personally I'd like to urge you to rethink the neutrange bonus, neutrange boni are extremely powerful, especially paired up with Gardes and a mate to tackle things. In addition, the domi looks like a PvE-variation of the armageddon right now.


You try fitting elutriation rig and Tachyons on Apocalypse. C'mon. Go ahead. I'll wait right here.

Point is not everyone has gazzilion skillpoints. There needs to be at least one newbie-friendly PvE hull in the lineup out there, purely from the game design and balance perspective.

Velicitia wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
As a relatively fresh player I can only say that taking away Apocalypse cap use bonus is a horrible idea and you should feel bad for even thinking it was good.

This really screws over low-skilled Amarr players, especially in PvE. This thing is barely capstable as it is with only guns and hardeners running without great capacitor/cap use skills.

Well, unless you cut all Large Energy Turrets cap use by 50% across the board with no strings attached... then yeah, bring it on! Otherwise - take a step back, rethink this fumble and think of the little guy out there.



or, maybe get your skills up to par for a battleship?


Yeah, because you totally need to train up that many capacitor skills for other races, for example Minmatar. They need such a huge number of skillpoints to allow their guns to keep firing without running out of cap! Oh, wait...



in the beginning, lazorz were VERY stout. to compensate, they had a massive cap draw. amarr, being energy specialists, learned to compensate and include a cap savings per bs rank on the lazorz. the abaddon came in and offered a damage bonus instead. i, mostly flying cap stable ships since around 05, do not like the abaddon much due to it being difficult to balance. its a bad-ass ship, just not my preference.
the power of lazorz was reduced a while ago, but the cap draw really didnt drop to compensate, but we who fly amarr, kept pressing on because we love the cap stability and shear ammount of tank that armor provides.

now, you want to get rid of the cap bonus on 2 of the ships without compensating?

recap:
high damage, high cap draw, bonus to compensate
change
lower damage, high cap draw, bonus to compensate
change
lower damage, high cap draw, no bonus to compete

and we are the "energy masters" and we cant figure out how to balance our ships anymore and will have to run cap boosters?

WE ARE AMARRIANS! WE DONT DO CAP BOOSTERS. THEY WERE MADE SO THAT OTHER SHIPS CAN KEEP UP WITH US. we dont do the damage and other races automaticallt get a 50% resist bonus to em on their hulls to block us.

whats left? am i going to burn my cap out everytime i turn on the hand drying in my captains restroom after i go?

dont get me wrong, i LOVE the new changes, but lazorz pull WAY too much cap still for them NOT to get a bonus.
they NEED to be lowered.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#398 - 2013-04-09 13:48:12 UTC
CCP Rise any thoughts on reducing large neut range whether you go through with the geddon change or not?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#399 - 2013-04-09 13:49:29 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Oh, the Nightmare offers ALOT of trade off for it's price tag... it's got the highest DPS of any current hull for lasers,

No. Armageddon Navy Issue currently has the highest DPS capability of any hull in the Amarr/Laserboat BS shipline with almost 200dps higher than the two times more expensive Nightmare fully fitted. Get your facts straight before you post.

If your going to take me out of context, then go back in your box, the post you pulled that from was specifically about Tach laser boats.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#400 - 2013-04-09 13:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
The Armageddon's Neut range bonus is too much. I honestly fail to understand why you (CCP Rise) think that this isn't an extremely powerful bonus. I would far prefer this ship is given a tracking disruptor bonus and pushed into the Disruption battleship (DBS) role. Also, only giving it 75M/Bit or at the most 100 M/Bit bandwidth would make sense when in the DBS role and then it doesn't tread on the Dominix's toes so much