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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Unit757
North Point
#2741 - 2013-05-15 02:02:23 UTC
Samas Sarum wrote:
Tank Talbot wrote:
Ranamar wrote:


So... a 60km Mega Pulse Laser II (firing Scorch) with a tracking bonus isn't good enough? Why would you ever fit beams on an Apoc when you can use that? (well, maybe if you can't use T2 guns for lolscorch) Pulse apocs are still really good when engaging down and nothing has changed except they burn through cap faster.

I've been trying to come up with an armor rail ship which is at all competitive... and the Megathron has serious trouble matching the pulse Apoc against anything smaller than a battleship, especially now that they both get tracking bonuses.


Yes. Few have mentioned what the new Apocalypse can do with pulse which is where I have been quietly seeing it. I think you are being a little conservative at 60KM though. However, in fairness to the questioning players the Apocalypse was originally painted as a long range or sniping ship. The new Apocalypse is now something else and there isn’t a real dedicated beam / sniping option in the current line up to fill that role. Weapon or ship problem?

The bonus CCP was going to apply to the new Apocalypse ship per quote in the Naval BS thread was range and tracking but the CSM went against this saying it would be too hard to balance. That pushed it into this new, more niche, role. I kind of want the CSM podded for that. Let CCP designers decide what they can balance.

I do think CCP is right in saying that you don’t balance ships around weapon problems, you balance the ship and then fix the weapons. It’s so hard to say where these ships really are without seeing what they do to beams and pulses in the rebalance.

I do think some people are letting the rebalance get to them in that its pushing them out of their old comfort zones and leaving them feeling aimless because they lack a stand in ship to replace it or continue their playing style with. There are also people lobbying with their own vested interests that don’t consider the point of view of other players. The current Naval BS thread is a good example where you can see null fleet runners viciously tearing into anyone that questions the Naval Apocalypse as that ship meets their needs.

I don’t know man. With so many vested interests feedback is so skewed as to be often questionable. So I am having to trust Rise knows what he is doing since I can’t always trust my fellows. LOL.


Well said. I think the lack of a sniping ship is 100% weapon problem as no one is going to go near a beam fit as long as the Apoc/Napoc can push Scorch out to 90+km with beam-like tracking at half the PG and cap. That is my biggest disappointment with that ship, it only makes a Scorch fit stronger than it already is amongst all other Amarr ships (can we not have a ship that isn't strongest with Scorch?).

The lack of a mission running, easier on the cap and SP ship in the T1 lineup is a bit of a disappointment as the entire lineup reeks of fleet PvP or go home. That is the only remaining problem that won't be solved by a laser rebalance in my opinion. The Navy Geddon is a bit closer to that kind of ship but expecting a low-SP (and hence low-isk) player to jump right into that isn't that reasonable.



They don't balance ships around how well they can jump into a dead space pocket and blap 40 500HP NPC cruisers. Any one of these battleships can be used to run a mission, but you need to train into them. Slap cruise missiles and drones in a geddon and your set.

Although, seriously? Low SP characters and battleships? Go away, about all they are good for is an easy kill in low sec.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2742 - 2013-05-15 03:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tonto Auri
Unit757 wrote:
Any one of these battleships can be used to run a mission, but you need to train into them. Slap cruise missiles and drones in a geddon and your set.

Although, seriously? Low SP characters and battleships? Go away, about all they are good for is an easy kill in low sec.

First, 'geddon is just a joke. Even with my 70mil SP, 10 of which in missiles and 3.5 in drones. I'd rather pull a Dominix, than half-assed 'geddon.
And this goes to every Amarr BS. Half-bonused, underpowered flying wrecks.

And second, we've discussed it earlier already. There's nothing wrong in having comparatively low SP. If you all high and mighty, go shine proudly in your corner.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2743 - 2013-05-15 03:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Samas Sarum
Unit757 wrote:

They don't balance ships around how well they can jump into a dead space pocket and blap 40 500HP NPC cruisers. Any one of these battleships can be used to run a mission, but you need to train into them. Slap cruise missiles and drones in a geddon and your set.

Although, seriously? Low SP characters and battleships? Go away, about all they are good for is an easy kill in low sec.


You that much of an elitist in real life? Low SP means < Level 5 in this context and if you're going to bring the new geddon and drones into Worlds Collide or Blockade (or any level 4 for that matter) let me know how that goes and then come back when you know what you're talking about instead of just chest thumping.

New BS pilots need viable beam fits until the 2-3 months is up and they can Scorch it like everyone else, and none of the T1 BS's are cap-usable with beams and an active tank (even at level 5). The other races have options for outside of fleet flying, the Amarr should too.
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2744 - 2013-05-15 04:10:16 UTC
Samas Sarum wrote:
Unit757 wrote:

They don't balance ships around how well they can jump into a dead space pocket and blap 40 500HP NPC cruisers. Any one of these battleships can be used to run a mission, but you need to train into them. Slap cruise missiles and drones in a geddon and your set.

Although, seriously? Low SP characters and battleships? Go away, about all they are good for is an easy kill in low sec.


You that much of an elitist in real life? Low SP means < Level 5 in this context and if you're going to bring the new geddon and drones into Worlds Collide or Blockade (or any level 4 for that matter) let me know how that goes and then come back when you know what you're talking about instead of just chest thumping.

New BS pilots need viable beam fits until the 2-3 months is up and they can Scorch it like everyone else, and none of the T1 BS's are cap-usable with beams and an active tank (even at level 5). The other races have options for outside of fleet flying, the Amarr should too.




technically a new BS pilot and have no problem flying my caldari BS's. but my ammar ones? dear gods those things are expensive and useless without someone feeding you cap. and the expansion is just going to make that worse. only one of any real use looks to be the abbadon, and that's cause they didn't actually DO anything to its base statsEvil

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Topperx
Les Trois Coquillages
#2745 - 2013-05-15 09:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Topperx
R.I.P Amarr BS for PvE.
Have to get a paladin fast.

Maybe no, in fact... If only you could fix the nearly useless gleam crystal... with something better (little less cap usage for example in exchange of tracking penalty ? Or maybe a little damage ?), so the new BS + the new large lasers would be a correct alternative to the actual BS.

Point of view PvE, after Odyssey :
- Armageddon : better going Gallente guys...
- Apocalypse : pulse fit nearly dead (just try EFT with BS Skill at 1, and look your cap : good bye afterburner and goodbye 1 TC : so not enough range and speed to catch BS rat at 50km with high dps crystal). Go to beam fit... OOOOhhhhh bad news without damage bonus.
- Abaddon : a little downgrade but the new lasers system will improve the cap consumption (I am afraid not enough to compense in overall effectiveness versus rat).

Amarr BS are only competitive (and just competitive) with Blood and Sansha rats. This is already a good reason to not fly amarr for PvE. With the new BS, just do something else... Better shield tank em and thermal than doing mosquito damages.
Gallente drone boat way ? Drone are a pain to use versus elite rat (too much dps loose at getting your drones back every 10 seconds).

I guess i will go caldari for PvE, like everybody, from now. They were great.With Odyssey, "godlike" is not enough strong to qualify their navy versions.

CCP, it's a shame so much variety in choice for PvE. Thank you.

But I assume all this changes are great for PvP.
Topperx
Les Trois Coquillages
#2746 - 2013-05-15 10:00:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Topperx
(Sorry double post, just a missclick, bad idea "quote button" and "edit button" at the same place)
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#2747 - 2013-05-15 10:42:19 UTC
Topperx wrote:
R.I.P Amarr BS for PvE.
Have to get a paladin fast.

Maybe no, in fact... If only you could fix the nearly useless gleam crystal... with something better (little less cap usage for example in exchange of tracking penalty ? Or maybe a little damage ?), so the new BS + the new large lasers would be a correct alternative to the actual BS.

Point of view PvE, after Odyssey :
- Armageddon : better going Gallente guys...
- Apocalypse : pulse fit nearly dead (just try EFT with BS Skill at 1, and look your cap : good bye afterburner and goodbye 1 TC : so not enough range and speed to catch BS rat at 50km with high dps crystal). Go to beam fit... OOOOhhhhh bad news without damage bonus.
- Abaddon : a little downgrade but the new lasers system will improve the cap consumption (I am afraid not enough to compense in overall effectiveness versus rat).

Amarr BS are only competitive (and just competitive) with Blood and Sansha rats. This is already a good reason to not fly amarr for PvE. With the new BS, just do something else... Better shield tank em and thermal than doing mosquito damages.
Gallente drone boat way ? Drone are a pain to use versus elite rat (too much dps loose at getting your drones back every 10 seconds).


You need 2(like 4 compared to 2 now) more slots for cap on a Apoc for L4 now. That is exactly the difference like you have it with the abaddon with this changes for L4 and you get 1 med slot worth in tracking for it. It isn't a big deal. The abaddon is one of the most effective T1 BS for doing L4 in amarr space and the cap changes makes it a lot better for it.


Topperx wrote:
I guess i will go caldari for PvE, like everybody, from now. They were great.With Odyssey, "godlike" is not enough strong to qualify their navy versions.


This is probably the best option for you.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2748 - 2013-05-15 10:48:29 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
Any one of these battleships can be used to run a mission, but you need to train into them. Slap cruise missiles and drones in a geddon and your set.

Although, seriously? Low SP characters and battleships? Go away, about all they are good for is an easy kill in low sec.

First, 'geddon is just a joke. Even with my 70mil SP, 10 of which in missiles and 3.5 in drones. I'd rather pull a Dominix, than half-assed 'geddon.
And this goes to every Amarr BS. Half-bonused, underpowered flying wrecks.

And second, we've discussed it earlier already. There's nothing wrong in having comparatively low SP. If you all high and mighty, go shine proudly in your corner.



The new Geddon is VERY powerful in PVP. It alone is one of the reasons the tempest simply lost all its usefulness.

I find a pity the iconic pulse boats is gone, but the new one is VERY powerful to anyone that can open its eyes.

And NO PVE balance does not count (or to be more fair, count way less than PVP balance)! Missions are so easy that makes little difference, a T1 battleship is only a stepping stone for mission runenrs before faction ships and Marauders.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#2749 - 2013-05-15 10:50:30 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
@Rise,

while I do actually think the cap bonus is useful on the apoc, I can see why a lot of people want the tracking bonus on it. Just a heads-up, the bonus change on the apoc will make rebalancing sniper hacs a nightmare in the next expansion for you guys and if you balance lasers around new apoc performance levels, you will have the time of your life with a fully fledged out laser rebalance attempt.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2750 - 2013-05-15 10:50:56 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Topperx wrote:
R.I.P Amarr BS for PvE.
Have to get a paladin fast.

Maybe no, in fact... If only you could fix the nearly useless gleam crystal... with something better (little less cap usage for example in exchange of tracking penalty ? Or maybe a little damage ?), so the new BS + the new large lasers would be a correct alternative to the actual BS.

Point of view PvE, after Odyssey :
- Armageddon : better going Gallente guys...
- Apocalypse : pulse fit nearly dead (just try EFT with BS Skill at 1, and look your cap : good bye afterburner and goodbye 1 TC : so not enough range and speed to catch BS rat at 50km with high dps crystal). Go to beam fit... OOOOhhhhh bad news without damage bonus.
- Abaddon : a little downgrade but the new lasers system will improve the cap consumption (I am afraid not enough to compense in overall effectiveness versus rat).

Amarr BS are only competitive (and just competitive) with Blood and Sansha rats. This is already a good reason to not fly amarr for PvE. With the new BS, just do something else... Better shield tank em and thermal than doing mosquito damages.
Gallente drone boat way ? Drone are a pain to use versus elite rat (too much dps loose at getting your drones back every 10 seconds).


You need 2(like 4 compared to 2 now) more slots for cap on a Apoc for L4 now. That is exactly the difference like you have it with the abaddon with this changes for L4 and you get 1 med slot worth in tracking for it. It isn't a big deal. The abaddon is one of the most effective T1 BS for doing L4 in amarr space and the cap changes makes it a lot better for it.


Topperx wrote:
I guess i will go caldari for PvE, like everybody, from now. They were great.With Odyssey, "godlike" is not enough strong to qualify their navy versions.


This is probably the best option for you.




No you need only 1 effectively because you fire less tiem to kill smaller ships saving some cap there and TIEM in mission ( that count as time runnign the repairer) also you move faster so again less incomming damage ( you are smart enough to use a AB on your fast Battleship aren't you? ) again making the mission faster.

Makign missions efficiently is about finihsign them As fast as possible, not being able to tank them longer. The new APOC can do more isk/h , it jsut needs a bit more pilto skill to use.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2751 - 2013-05-15 10:52:42 UTC
Samas Sarum wrote:
Unit757 wrote:

They don't balance ships around how well they can jump into a dead space pocket and blap 40 500HP NPC cruisers. Any one of these battleships can be used to run a mission, but you need to train into them. Slap cruise missiles and drones in a geddon and your set.

Although, seriously? Low SP characters and battleships? Go away, about all they are good for is an easy kill in low sec.


You that much of an elitist in real life? Low SP means < Level 5 in this context and if you're going to bring the new geddon and drones into Worlds Collide or Blockade (or any level 4 for that matter) let me know how that goes and then come back when you know what you're talking about instead of just chest thumping.

New BS pilots need viable beam fits until the 2-3 months is up and they can Scorch it like everyone else, and none of the T1 BS's are cap-usable with beams and an active tank (even at level 5). The other races have options for outside of fleet flying, the Amarr should too.


The normal geddon was not used much already in Missions. The best t1 and basically the only non bad t1 battleship for missions onamarr side was abaddon. The navy geddon and navy apoc were useful, but the plain geddon was a very poor choice.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Topperx
Les Trois Coquillages
#2752 - 2013-05-15 11:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Topperx
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Topperx wrote:
R.I.P Amarr BS for PvE.
Have to get a paladin fast.

Maybe no, in fact... If only you could fix the nearly useless gleam crystal... with something better (little less cap usage for example in exchange of tracking penalty ? Or maybe a little damage ?), so the new BS + the new large lasers would be a correct alternative to the actual BS.

Point of view PvE, after Odyssey :
- Armageddon : better going Gallente guys...
- Apocalypse : pulse fit nearly dead (just try EFT with BS Skill at 1, and look your cap : good bye afterburner and goodbye 1 TC : so not enough range and speed to catch BS rat at 50km with high dps crystal). Go to beam fit... OOOOhhhhh bad news without damage bonus.
- Abaddon : a little downgrade but the new lasers system will improve the cap consumption (I am afraid not enough to compense in overall effectiveness versus rat).

Amarr BS are only competitive (and just competitive) with Blood and Sansha rats. This is already a good reason to not fly amarr for PvE. With the new BS, just do something else... Better shield tank em and thermal than doing mosquito damages.
Gallente drone boat way ? Drone are a pain to use versus elite rat (too much dps loose at getting your drones back every 10 seconds).


You need 2(like 4 compared to 2 now) more slots for cap on a Apoc for L4 now. That is exactly the difference like you have it with the abaddon with this changes for L4 and you get 1 med slot worth in tracking for it. It isn't a big deal. The abaddon is one of the most effective T1 BS for doing L4 in amarr space and the cap changes makes it a lot better for it.


Topperx wrote:
I guess i will go caldari for PvE, like everybody, from now. They were great.With Odyssey, "godlike" is not enough strong to qualify their navy versions.


This is probably the best option for you.




No you need only 1 effectively because you fire less tiem to kill smaller ships saving some cap there and TIEM in mission ( that count as time runnign the repairer) also you move faster so again less incomming damage ( you are smart enough to use a AB on your fast Battleship aren't you? ) again making the mission faster.

Makign missions efficiently is about finihsign them As fast as possible, not being able to tank them longer. The new APOC can do more isk/h , it jsut needs a bit more pilto skill to use.


Come on man... you are saying the new tracking bonus make you save time on mission by shooting smaller target ?

Today there is no tracking issue in killing cruiser size. For the frigate, just shoot it at 25+ km or let the drones works (maybe you will at 20+ with the new bonus). What an isk/hour gain !!!!! Seriously... Keep your shoot on something bigger.
No need more tracking for a PvE pulsapoc.

Tomorrow, just forget pulsapoc (2 TC with optimal script and 1 afterburner mandatory). Or pimp it like hell.

Beamapoc will be the only way to go, and according to me the dps is too low to be effective. That's all what I say.

So stay the famous abaddon... Where is the tiericide this way if the only ship usable for PvE is this one ?
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#2753 - 2013-05-15 11:25:58 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Kagura Nikon wrote:

No you need only 1 effectively because you fire less tiem to kill smaller ships saving some cap there and TIEM in mission ( that count as time runnign the repairer) also you move faster so again less incomming damage ( you are smart enough to use a AB on your fast Battleship aren't you? ) again making the mission faster.

Makign missions efficiently is about finihsign them As fast as possible, not being able to tank them longer. The new APOC can do more isk/h , it jsut needs a bit more pilto skill to use.


[Apocalypse, New Setup 1]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Heat Sink II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Locus Coordinator II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5



You need at last 1 Cap recharger after the changes and this is already pushing you out of the comfort zone(2 is a fair guess). There are only a few missions that require more than 95km optimal, so the need for a AB on the apoc is rarely there. I for myself always preferred the abaddon for L4, since it can push more dps at sub 50km ranges, what is the thing you will do the most.

Topperx wrote:

Come on man... you are saying the new tracking bonus make you save time on mission by shooting smaller target ?

Today there is no tracking issue in killing cruiser size. For the frigate, just shoot it at 25+ km or let the drones works (maybe you will at 20+ with the new bonus). What an isk/hour gain !!!!! Seriously... Keep your shoot on something bigger.
No need more tracking for a PvE pulsapoc.

Tomorrow, just forget pulsapoc (2 TC with optimal script and 1 afterburner mandatory). Or pimp it like hell.

Beamapoc will be the only way to go, and according to me the dps is too low to be effective. That's all what I say.

So stay the famous abaddon... Where is the tiericide this way if the only ship usable for PvE is this one ?


No I say a tracking bonus is more that you would receive from a tracking computer and you will, outside of pushing it to 95km, always use at least one tracking scripted TC. That is exactly one slot difference what you now have to dump into cap, realistic you will need another slot to(options are another cap recharger in the med slots, 4. HS for a CPR or changing the T2 Locus for another discharge Rig). The Abaddon does considerably more damage up to 50km and will be quicker in a lot of missions that the current or new Apoc.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2754 - 2013-05-15 11:28:05 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The normal geddon was not used much already in Missions. The best t1 and basically the only non bad t1 battleship for missions onamarr side was abaddon. The navy geddon and navy apoc were useful, but the plain geddon was a very poor choice.

LOL? So, that's why I see only Golems, Nighmares, Rattlesnakes and sporadically - Paladins around the Amarr mission hubs? Oh, sorry, forgot Armageddons, yeah. Abaddon just doesn't cut it.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Topperx
Les Trois Coquillages
#2755 - 2013-05-15 12:09:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Topperx
The Djego wrote:

No I say a tracking bonus is more that you would receive from a tracking computer and you will, outside of pushing it to 95km, always use at least one tracking scripted TC. That is exactly one slot difference what you now have to dump into cap, realistic you will need another slot to(options are another cap recharger in the med slots, 4. HS for a CPR or changing the T2 Locus for another discharge Rig). The Abaddon does considerably more damage up to 50km and will be quicker in a lot of missions that the current or new Apoc.


No I don't need always tracking script on my apoc, even with beam at shooting cruiser at 25 km, or with pulse at 10km. If they are closer, I can switch my TC's optimal script to a tracking script without loosing dps because I am already in best crystal dps (multifrequency / faction multifrequency or conflag). 2 TC with tracking are far from enough at closest range.

With the new apoc, you loose at least 1 TC for a cap module (for less capacitor overall), so you also loose optimal from this or these TC when the rat are further than 25km. Less optimal = less dps because of using a longest range crystal.

And, why using Amarr BS ? For missionning Blood raiders and Sanshas. BS mostly orbit at 50 km, perfect for a pulsapoc with 2 TC optimal and 1 afterburner to reach the gates faster (ok afterburner is not mandatory). Abaddon has to use lower dps crystal to reach such a range, is slowest from far, and has less confort in cap (vs Blood Raiders with neut, that can hurt). And don't even try to compare beam-abaddon with pulsApoc (dps at 50km, remember ?).

Ok abaddon is a beast on paper. In reality, I don't think so. Old Armageddon and pulsapoc do pretty well versus Blood and Sansha, and are so much flexible (not only dps to take in account in the isk/hour theory). Other rat to fight ? A little T1 maelstrom will be better.
Unit757
North Point
#2756 - 2013-05-15 12:58:15 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
Any one of these battleships can be used to run a mission, but you need to train into them. Slap cruise missiles and drones in a geddon and your set.

Although, seriously? Low SP characters and battleships? Go away, about all they are good for is an easy kill in low sec.

First, 'geddon is just a joke. Even with my 70mil SP, 10 of which in missiles and 3.5 in drones. I'd rather pull a Dominix, than half-assed 'geddon.
And this goes to every Amarr BS. Half-bonused, underpowered flying wrecks.

And second, we've discussed it earlier already. There's nothing wrong in having comparatively low SP. If you all high and mighty, go shine proudly in your corner.


You are obviously just to stupid to see the bigger picture. The geddon is NOT a joke, it serves a purpose. If you want a straight up drone boat, the obvious choice is a dominix over a geddon, because that is it's primary role. The geddon gets a bonus to neuts, which your an idiot if you can't see the potential for an almost 40KM neut range, and the ship also gets a good bonus to it's drones aswell.

NONE of those ships are half-bonused. Currently, 2 of them are because they are stuck having to use up a bonus slot for their guns. With these changes, they now have two effective bonuses each, and all they need is a slight rebalanced on energy weapons as a whole. It is not the ships fault that energy weapons have a problem, it is the weapons themselves, which Rise has said a few times, WILL be looked at.

And I never said there is anything WRONG with having low SP, I was implying that someone who has been playing for +/- 2 months shouldn't be jumping in a battleship and expecting it to preform well at what they want to do, because no matter how you fit it, or how much money you sink into it, it will not do anything well.

Better yet. Tonto, how about you go on the test server, do up a geddon fit, take a screenshot of it, and explain to me, and everyone else, why it sucks. Because untill you do that, you can stfu and "go shine proudly in your corner"
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#2757 - 2013-05-15 13:08:23 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Topperx wrote:

And, why using Amarr BS ? For missionning Blood raiders and Sanshas. BS mostly orbit at 50 km, perfect for a pulsapoc with 2 TC optimal and 1 afterburner to reach the gates faster (ok afterburner is not mandatory). Abaddon has to use lower dps crystal to reach such a range, is slowest from far, and has less confort in cap (vs Blood Raiders with neut, that can hurt). And don't even try to compare beam-abaddon with pulsApoc (dps at 50km, remember ?).

Ok abaddon is a beast on paper. In reality, I don't think so. Old Armageddon and pulsapoc do pretty well versus Blood and Sansha, and are so much flexible (not only dps to take in account in the isk/hour theory). Other rat to fight ? A little T1 maelstrom will be better.


Abaddon got 754 dps @ 44+16km with IN standard and Apoc got 754 dps @ 47+19km(will be 46+16 after the patch if you fit one less TC) with IN Xray, that is for both the 50km ammo, if you use stronger crystals at lower range the Abaddon pulls ahead in DPS because it got the damage bonus, if you use stronger ammo at higher range the Apoc pulls ahead with the optimal bonus. 50km is roughly the point where both are equal.
Abaddon relays quite a bit more on the AB then the Apoc, since it shines the most if you can get to 50km or less with it.

If you think a mealstrom can pull off this numbers at this ranges than by all means fly a maelstrom.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2758 - 2013-05-15 13:29:16 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The normal geddon was not used much already in Missions. The best t1 and basically the only non bad t1 battleship for missions onamarr side was abaddon. The navy geddon and navy apoc were useful, but the plain geddon was a very poor choice.

LOL? So, that's why I see only Golems, Nighmares, Rattlesnakes and sporadically - Paladins around the Amarr mission hubs? Oh, sorry, forgot Armageddons, yeah. Abaddon just doesn't cut it.



You realize NONE of those you citede are T1? Learn to read before answering a post

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2759 - 2013-05-15 13:32:03 UTC
The Djego wrote:

No I say a tracking bonus is more that you would receive from a tracking computer and you will, outside of pushing it to 95km, always use at least one tracking scripted TC. That is exactly one slot difference what you now have to dump into cap, realistic you will need another slot to(options are another cap recharger in the med slots, 4. HS for a CPR or changing the T2 Locus for another discharge Rig). The Abaddon does considerably more damage up to 50km and will be quicker in a lot of missions that the current or new Apoc.



But the abaddon already had that same advantage over the Apoc before :)


With change in capacitor of apoc, less shots to hit same targets, less cap for the weaposn themselves and movign faster (so reachign gates faster etc). With a single capo recharger extra you can break even comapred to what you woudl do with previous APOC.


Also You can use that giant cargo hold.. adn not fit 1 cap recharger.. but fir 1 cap ionjector. And there wil be ZERO cap issues.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Topperx
Les Trois Coquillages
#2760 - 2013-05-15 13:41:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Topperx
The Djego wrote:

Abaddon got 754 dps @ 44+16km with IN standard and Apoc got 754 dps @ 47+19km(will be 46+16 after the patch if you fit one less TC) with IN Xray, that is for both the 50km ammo, if you use stronger crystals at lower range the Abaddon pulls ahead in DPS because it got the damage bonus, if you use stronger ammo at higher range the Apoc pulls ahead with the optimal bonus. 50km is roughly the point where both are equal.
Abaddon relays quite a bit more on the AB then the Apoc, since it shines the most if you can get to 50km or less with it.


Funny. Cap of the abaddon ? 2/3 min ?
In my mind without AB or the apoc bonus, it is a pain to use pulse laser, because it is impossible to reach the BS rat orbiting at 50km. But I guess the abaddon has a better tank in your example. I prefer flexibility and cap confort over a crazy dps that you cannot apply in reality cause your ship is slooooow. Not to mention the potential warp back when the income dps is crazy (longer to clean the waves when you are trying to get closer, more rats shooting at you).

I don't even speak about the falloff parameter (your example says that Apoc is better than abaddon at 50km).

But I will assume that the gameplay depends on the man and the mission, that's all.

The Djego wrote:

If you think a mealstrom can pull off this numbers at this ranges than by all means fly a maelstrom.


I was speaking about rat other than Blood and Sansha, ok with that ?
A Maelstrom will cut in half Angels for example with fusion ammo, even with less dps at long range cause of the resists of the rats. I don't think an abaddon can rivalize.


To reconnect to the main topic, in fact the new beam lasers can be great. My first reaction was negative about Odyssey cause I mostly use pulse weapons.
But the -10% powergrid for the large beam lasers give the opportunity to fit an additional turret (or to fit it easier, without powergrid implant, depends on ship and beam type).
So Beam could make good damages after all... and with the new tracking apoc, it can work greatly.