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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2721 - 2013-05-14 05:02:34 UTC
joshua mckayne wrote:
the only glaring issues with the apoc i can see so far is the severe lack of capacitor while firing its guns other than that it could use a bit more armor, just a bit. if those two things can be fixed i can see it being a fairly solid ship.


You find the bonuses useful over an Abaddon?
raawe
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2722 - 2013-05-14 06:07:38 UTC
Anyone noticed on minmatar thread how Rise changed ship role on tempest? There is still hope for amarr ships
joshua mckayne
Bubblewrap.
#2723 - 2013-05-14 06:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: joshua mckayne
Avald Midular wrote:
joshua mckayne wrote:
the only glaring issues with the apoc i can see so far is the severe lack of capacitor while firing its guns other than that it could use a bit more armor, just a bit. if those two things can be fixed i can see it being a fairly solid ship.


You find the bonuses useful over an Abaddon?


you will be able to use conflag and get reliable hits off of smaller craft, while the Abaddon will need to use INMF crystals. also the Apoc becomes MUCH faster than the other Amarr battleships, its almost as fast as an oracle under MWD

speed at level 5 skills under MWD is 1,015.32 ms with two 1600 rolled tungsten plates and no trimarks
with trimarks its 896.32ms with the same setup.

so your usual pulse oracle is about 300ms faster under MWD

your average double plated and fully Trimarked Abaddon is clocking at 676.56ms under MWD

Apocalypse Fit,

3 Trimark armor pump I

8 Megapulse Laser II

100mn MWD II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II with Cap booster 800
2 Tracking computer II

2 Heatsink II
2 1600mm rolled tungsten
DCU II
EANM II
ANP II

5 hammer head II

EHP 101,417
DPS
Navy Standard = 434.22 - 592 w/drones capstable 48%
INMF =651.32 - 809.72 w/drones cap lasts 5m 10s
Scorch = 519 - 677 w/drones
Conflag = 792.84 - 885 w/drones cap lasts 3m 20s

tracking speed on guns
Any non t2 crystal = 0.0597 -0.979 with the TC2's on tracking scripts
Scorch = 0.0448 - 0.0734
Conflag = 0.0418- 0.0685

so it could use better cap stability and some more ehp


Edit: i forgot to say the fit is based on my current implants :P
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2724 - 2013-05-14 08:17:17 UTC
raawe wrote:
Anyone noticed on minmatar thread how Rise changed ship role on tempest? There is still hope for amarr ships

That's assuming giving amarr nerfs wasnt the whole point of the expansion, which it was. so no, amarr wont receive anymore changes for quite a while, besides possibly minor number tweaks.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#2725 - 2013-05-14 08:21:43 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
To be honest, I'm not used to repeat my statements twice. If you're trying to placate me by telling that "but not much have changed... yet", it's a futile effort. Sooner or later, they drag every ship from under me, and what I would be flying?


I agree wit this sentiment, I am going on a strike of sorts by not flying amarr battleships until energy weapons have their full balance pass and cap/pg problems are resolved.

However CCP get their metrics, they will not be getting them from me.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2726 - 2013-05-14 09:14:36 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
To be honest, I'm not used to repeat my statements twice. If you're trying to placate me by telling that "but not much have changed... yet", it's a futile effort. Sooner or later, they drag every ship from under me, and what I would be flying?


I agree wit this sentiment, I am going on a strike of sorts by not flying amarr battleships until energy weapons have their full balance pass and cap/pg problems are resolved.

However CCP get their metrics, they will not be getting them from me.

That's pretty much my plan as well. Tonto, if/when Energy weapons get a real fix (Which really only needs the percentages we have been saying here and in the Energy Weapons thread), the Apoc will actually be in a pretty good place. As will the Abaddon. The new Geddon.... well, it's not the old Geddon, but if they gave it T3 PG/CPU, it'll work out fairly decently also. With it's current fitting issues however, Meh.
raawe
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2727 - 2013-05-14 10:45:10 UTC
To quote Rise
Quote:

To anyone who is very sad to see the old Armageddon go, I encourage to you consider that if left the same, it would have been even more crowded by the Abaddon as a result of the price adjustment than it already was.


I actually see geddons flying around more often then abaddons, especially for pvp. On the other hand not so while ago Prophecy was changed and i never EVER saw that ship around (well maybe in smaller fleets fitted for uber obvious bait) but after the change guess what....still nothing. Seems like folks don't really like the new Prophecy role and i think same will happen with Armageddon. People will train for dominix imo and i'm one of those sad ones that would like to see it stay the way it was. Anyone remember Kil2's (Rise) Armageddon movie? Proper geddon action \m/
John 1135
#2728 - 2013-05-14 10:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: John 1135
Tank Talbot wrote:
However, could the developers be forward thinking people designing these ships for the new mechanics they are working on?

They may indeed be forward thinking. Designers can be. They are being paid to perfect the game rather than paying to play it in the meantime.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2729 - 2013-05-14 11:38:26 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Tonto, if/when Energy weapons get a real fix (Which really only needs the percentages we have been saying here and in the Energy Weapons thread), the Apoc will actually be in a pretty good place.

If/when they "fix" lasers, Apoc will still be as bland as other two. None of the new BS can compete with old Armageddon, not even remotely.
Bottom line: Amarr is shafted. However you slice this sentence, it won't change.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Unit757
North Point
#2730 - 2013-05-14 14:24:03 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Tonto, if/when Energy weapons get a real fix (Which really only needs the percentages we have been saying here and in the Energy Weapons thread), the Apoc will actually be in a pretty good place.

If/when they "fix" lasers, Apoc will still be as bland as other two. None of the new BS can compete with old Armageddon, not even remotely.
Bottom line: Amarr is shafted. However you slice this sentence, it won't change.


Go fit a dual plated mega pulse geddon on TQ, then go fit a dual plated mega pulse apoc on sisi. Drones aside, they arn't much different, and the apoc can tank more, and go faster. Yes, energy weapons as a whole need a look at when it comes to cap consumption, but they are far from useable.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2731 - 2013-05-14 14:43:38 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
Go fit a dual plated mega pulse geddon on TQ, then go fit a dual plated mega pulse apoc on sisi.

You know, you making little sense? If you bring TQ 'geddon to the same PG/CPU, as Apoc/Abaddon, it will allow this fit easily.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Unit757
North Point
#2732 - 2013-05-14 16:49:07 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
Go fit a dual plated mega pulse geddon on TQ, then go fit a dual plated mega pulse apoc on sisi.

You know, you making little sense? If you bring TQ 'geddon to the same PG/CPU, as Apoc/Abaddon, it will allow this fit easily.


No, I'm pretty sure I'm making perfect sense. Here, I'll be nice and explain it better for you. The current geddon can fit a full rack of megas, tank, prop, point. The current Apoc can also do this, but with less DPS, more range, and more tank. The new Apoc can also fit this, with slightly less tank then it originally had (still more then the current geddon), a little less DPS, more range, and better tracking. Given how nobody likes sitting still in pvp, I will gladly take a small DPS hit to track better.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2733 - 2013-05-14 17:25:16 UTC
And what exactly you want to track better? Frigates?
Don't try to fool me here, you'll fit pulses with conflag on it.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#2734 - 2013-05-14 17:35:02 UTC
The thread is 137 pages long. Unless your post begins with, "I went to the Test Server and..." then your opinion is theory crafting only. They know and admitted that laser weapons need work. CCP has taken steps in that direction. But actually getting on SISI, putting an Apoc together, and testing it will have much more impact on CCP Rise then temper tantrums on the forums. At least you can point and say, "I tried this fit and this fit and this fit and got my ass handed to me each and every time."

Other great forum theory crafting moments before **** went live-

'The projectile buffs are not enough. Minmatar ships will continue to suck.'
'Supercarriers and fighter bombers are fine. Put them on TQ'
'The Talos is going to suck. Noone will fly it.'
'The Algos is worthless. People will fly the Dragoon over it. And the Corax is so OP that they'll blot out the sun.'

I did go to the Test Server and played with an Armageddon. My fit:

High:
Cruise Launcher II x 4
Heavy Unstable Neut x 3
Mid:
100MN Prototype MWD
Heavy Cap Booster II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor
Faint Warp Disruptor
Low:
1600mm Plate II x 2
EANM II x 2
DC II
DDA II x 2
Rigs:
Trimarks x 3

Drones:
Warde II x 5
Bouncer II x 5
Hammerhead II x 5
Hobgoblins II x 5
Warriors II x 5
ECM x 5

Solid Tank. Cap was very manageable. 867 DPS is on the low side. 903 overheated. Lots of utility in the form of the drone bay and three heavy neuts. Many ships ran as soon as I landed on grid. The ship out-neuted a Bhaalgorn. The Armageddon gave a solid performance in every fight I was in.


Unit757
North Point
#2735 - 2013-05-14 17:41:39 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
And what exactly you want to track better? Frigates?
Don't try to fool me here, you'll fit pulses with conflag on it.


I am quite content with tracking everything better, which the apoc allows me to do. Oh, and I use INMF, unless the situation makes conflag better.

Anyways, moving past stupid people who have no idea what they are talking about, I to, have been on sisi playing with the amarr ships. As I said earlier, aside from the obvious cap issues lasers present, which will hopefully be fixed down the road, the apoc is pretty solid. Cruise Geddon is also quite nice, neut range especially.
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#2736 - 2013-05-14 18:36:02 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:

Quote:
The Apoc is not "supposed" to use beams. I don't really know how you took that from my description which says "It is also getting an increase to power grid and CPU so that beams are a more viable option in the future." All I meant to say was that we increased fitting while lowering PG need for beams and so hopefully it would be more viable now than before. We know beams still need work on their own, as I said above.

We took it from ship bonuses. Because the opposite makes little sense.
Quote:
First of all, again, it isn't "supposed" to use beams. Even if it was, you really think increased tracking will never be relevant?

Yes, we really think.
Quote:
As for why tracking in general, I think there's a lot of reasons. Its makes the Apoc stand apart from the other two Amarr battleships in a very distinct and interesting way. It provides a niche for the Apoc in multiple environments. It offers a strong option to counter some of the most popular ships in PVP meta right now (attack BC and Tech 3 cruisers). It gives players who want to use Amarr battleships in smaller groups at closer ranges a new tool. It fits the idea of the attack role well. On and on.

Blind claim, not supported by anything but delusions, as it's evident from the whole thread of criticism.


So... a 60km Mega Pulse Laser II (firing Scorch) with a tracking bonus isn't good enough? Why would you ever fit beams on an Apoc when you can use that? (well, maybe if you can't use T2 guns for lolscorch) Pulse apocs are still really good when engaging down and nothing has changed except they burn through cap faster.

I've been trying to come up with an armor rail ship which is at all competitive... and the Megathron has serious trouble matching the pulse Apoc against anything smaller than a battleship, especially now that they both get tracking bonuses.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2737 - 2013-05-14 18:50:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Ranamar wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:

Quote:
The Apoc is not "supposed" to use beams. I don't really know how you took that from my description which says "It is also getting an increase to power grid and CPU so that beams are a more viable option in the future." All I meant to say was that we increased fitting while lowering PG need for beams and so hopefully it would be more viable now than before. We know beams still need work on their own, as I said above.

We took it from ship bonuses. Because the opposite makes little sense.
Quote:
First of all, again, it isn't "supposed" to use beams. Even if it was, you really think increased tracking will never be relevant?

Yes, we really think.
Quote:
As for why tracking in general, I think there's a lot of reasons. Its makes the Apoc stand apart from the other two Amarr battleships in a very distinct and interesting way. It provides a niche for the Apoc in multiple environments. It offers a strong option to counter some of the most popular ships in PVP meta right now (attack BC and Tech 3 cruisers). It gives players who want to use Amarr battleships in smaller groups at closer ranges a new tool. It fits the idea of the attack role well. On and on.

Blind claim, not supported by anything but delusions, as it's evident from the whole thread of criticism.


So... a 60km Mega Pulse Laser II (firing Scorch) with a tracking bonus isn't good enough? Why would you ever fit beams on an Apoc when you can use that? (well, maybe if you can't use T2 guns for lolscorch) Pulse apocs are still really good when engaging down and nothing has changed except they burn through cap faster.

I've been trying to come up with an armor rail ship which is at all competitive... and the Megathron has serious trouble matching the pulse Apoc against anything smaller than a battleship, especially now that they both get tracking bonuses.


Not speaking for him but I would assume that any laser rebalance would include doing away with a 60km Scorch fit (90 for Apoc) or else no one would touch beams unless they made them OP to make up for their obnoxious fitting requirements compared to Scorch (pretty much the gist of this entire thread).
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2738 - 2013-05-14 18:59:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunkwill Khashour
My 2 cents on the Amarr BS and navy BS:

- The Armageddon should have the attack role, Gankageddon has been EvE vocabulary since 2003.
- The (Navy) Apocalypse as an attack ship has less dps than any other laser BS (and the Oracle), and equal to the Bhaalgorn.
- The Navy Geddon in its current form is straight up better than the Abaddon.
- Beams and rails are bad atm, don't force the Apoc to rely on them. Also, why no 10% optimal?


IMO:
- Give Armageddon its current role back. Increase speed and fitting to make it a real attack ship.
- Give the Apocalypse capacitor (warfare?) and drones. More a utility combat ship.
- Navy Geddon goes all out waco: 8/4/7 with no CPU for shield tank or PG for armor tank but 8 turrets and speed create a purely one dimensional ship whose dps is only second to the Vindicator.
- Navy Apocalypse goes all out waco too: either a TD BS or a flying battery able to sustain 8 large energy transfers.
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2739 - 2013-05-14 19:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tank Talbot
Ranamar wrote:


So... a 60km Mega Pulse Laser II (firing Scorch) with a tracking bonus isn't good enough? Why would you ever fit beams on an Apoc when you can use that? (well, maybe if you can't use T2 guns for lolscorch) Pulse apocs are still really good when engaging down and nothing has changed except they burn through cap faster.

I've been trying to come up with an armor rail ship which is at all competitive... and the Megathron has serious trouble matching the pulse Apoc against anything smaller than a battleship, especially now that they both get tracking bonuses.


Yes. Few have mentioned what the new Apocalypse can do with pulse which is where I have been quietly seeing it. I think you are being a little conservative at 60KM though. However, in fairness to the questioning players the Apocalypse was originally painted as a long range or sniping ship. The new Apocalypse is now something else and there isn’t a real dedicated beam / sniping option in the current line up to fill that role. Weapon or ship problem?

The bonus CCP was going to apply to the new Apocalypse ship per quote in the Naval BS thread was range and tracking but the CSM went against this saying it would be too hard to balance. That pushed it into this new, more niche, role. I kind of want the CSM podded for that. Let CCP designers decide what they can balance.

I do think CCP is right in saying that you don’t balance ships around weapon problems, you balance the ship and then fix the weapons. It’s so hard to say where these ships really are without seeing what they do to beams and pulses in the rebalance.

I do think some people are letting the rebalance get to them in that its pushing them out of their old comfort zones and leaving them feeling aimless because they lack a stand in ship to replace it or continue their playing style with. There are also people lobbying with their own vested interests that don’t consider the point of view of other players. The current Naval BS thread is a good example where you can see null fleet runners viciously tearing into anyone that questions the Naval Apocalypse as that ship meets their needs.

I don’t know man. With so many vested interests feedback is so skewed as to be often questionable. So I am having to trust Rise knows what he is doing since I can’t always trust my fellows. LOL.
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2740 - 2013-05-15 00:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Samas Sarum
Tank Talbot wrote:
Ranamar wrote:


So... a 60km Mega Pulse Laser II (firing Scorch) with a tracking bonus isn't good enough? Why would you ever fit beams on an Apoc when you can use that? (well, maybe if you can't use T2 guns for lolscorch) Pulse apocs are still really good when engaging down and nothing has changed except they burn through cap faster.

I've been trying to come up with an armor rail ship which is at all competitive... and the Megathron has serious trouble matching the pulse Apoc against anything smaller than a battleship, especially now that they both get tracking bonuses.


Yes. Few have mentioned what the new Apocalypse can do with pulse which is where I have been quietly seeing it. I think you are being a little conservative at 60KM though. However, in fairness to the questioning players the Apocalypse was originally painted as a long range or sniping ship. The new Apocalypse is now something else and there isn’t a real dedicated beam / sniping option in the current line up to fill that role. Weapon or ship problem?

The bonus CCP was going to apply to the new Apocalypse ship per quote in the Naval BS thread was range and tracking but the CSM went against this saying it would be too hard to balance. That pushed it into this new, more niche, role. I kind of want the CSM podded for that. Let CCP designers decide what they can balance.

I do think CCP is right in saying that you don’t balance ships around weapon problems, you balance the ship and then fix the weapons. It’s so hard to say where these ships really are without seeing what they do to beams and pulses in the rebalance.

I do think some people are letting the rebalance get to them in that its pushing them out of their old comfort zones and leaving them feeling aimless because they lack a stand in ship to replace it or continue their playing style with. There are also people lobbying with their own vested interests that don’t consider the point of view of other players. The current Naval BS thread is a good example where you can see null fleet runners viciously tearing into anyone that questions the Naval Apocalypse as that ship meets their needs.

I don’t know man. With so many vested interests feedback is so skewed as to be often questionable. So I am having to trust Rise knows what he is doing since I can’t always trust my fellows. LOL.


Well said. I think the lack of a sniping ship is 100% weapon problem as no one is going to go near a beam fit as long as the Apoc/Napoc can push Scorch out to 90+km with beam-like tracking at half the PG and cap. That is my biggest disappointment with that ship, it only makes a Scorch fit stronger than it already is amongst all other Amarr ships (can we not have a ship that isn't strongest with Scorch?).

The lack of a mission running, easier on the cap and SP ship in the T1 lineup is a bit of a disappointment as the entire lineup reeks of fleet PvP or go home. That is the only remaining problem that won't be solved by a laser rebalance in my opinion. The Navy Geddon is a bit closer to that kind of ship but expecting a low-SP (and hence low-isk) player to jump right into that isn't that reasonable.