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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2601 - 2013-05-09 17:52:30 UTC
It's around post #570 or somewhere. Rise says he tweaked the Armageddon's powergrid; which implies that he's looked at it multiple times now. If I remember correctly, it was adjusted downwards from 16500; because he hadn't actually adjusted the powergrid. Still, he chose to take 3k off- it wouldn't have taken much thought to take 2k off instead if he had wanted a full rack of neuts fittable.
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2602 - 2013-05-09 17:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tank Talbot
Pelea Ming wrote:
So, just to reiterate the proposed changes in this thread so far:
Abbadon to a 7 turret 7.5% damage boat - do with the nonturret slot as felt appropriate, Abbadon to a 6 turret boat with 10% damage - do with the slots as appropriate; Abaddon cap raised 6750/1125/6.0 (averaged these specific numbers out from those suggested so far);

Apocalypse to lose range bonus in favor of either a ROF or Damage bonus (if ROF, give it more cap as well) while keeping the tracking bonus;

Armegeddon to have more PG to be able to fit a full rack of nuets or Tachs and Neuts.

(I deliberately left out suggestions that would completely ignore the tiericide initiative as those would definately only get ignored.)


With the turret changes noted to the Abaddon, rather than just a larger cap increasing the recharge rate may be more appropriate considering.

PS: The Amarr ships need to be able to sustain weapons fire as long as battleships from the other races.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2603 - 2013-05-09 19:29:05 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
... believe it was in response to people claiming he Armageddon to be too OP.

Just goes to show that he sucks at giving people grey hairs .. he should have allowed people to fit all neuts and then laughed maniacally when they realised that they have no hope in hell of actually using all that suction due to cap restrictions Smile
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#2604 - 2013-05-09 19:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:
... believe it was in response to people claiming he Armageddon to be too OP.

Just goes to show that he sucks at giving people grey hairs .. he should have allowed people to fit all neuts and then laughed maniacally when they realised that they have no hope in hell of actually using all that suction due to cap restrictions Smile


Says it all really, they haven't hit tranquility yet, but somehow people think it's op, given that it's an amarr ship you'd think he would listen to the people in the amarr thread the vast majority of which preferred the old Armageddon.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2605 - 2013-05-09 19:54:57 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
given that it's an amarr ship you'd think he would listen to the people in the amarr thread


Whoa whoa whoa..

That's quite the dangerous thought you have there, we don't want the ISD's to lock this thread..

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2606 - 2013-05-09 20:21:51 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:
... believe it was in response to people claiming he Armageddon to be too OP.

Just goes to show that he sucks at giving people grey hairs .. he should have allowed people to fit all neuts and then laughed maniacally when they realised that they have no hope in hell of actually using all that suction due to cap restrictions Smile


Says it all really, they haven't hit tranquility yet, but somehow people think it's op, given that it's an amarr ship you'd think he would listen to the people in the amarr thread the vast majority of which preferred the old Armageddon.


True. I wanted to fly an old style Armageddon as my first battleship in game. It was a mean ass laser boat with solid cap and good drone utility. That's an AMARR ship. The cap bonuses helped make it actually work in play and was not USELESS. Look what happened... Now? I am left to hope they fix the Abaddon because I doubt there is any way to bring back the real Armageddon and cross training at this stage is counter productive and slower than just starting anew. It's like I was killed by an announcement a week into play because I chose to start as a race some douche didn't like. (Please take that as an expression of emotion rather than an attack on some one.)
Leskit
Pure Victory
#2607 - 2013-05-09 20:36:03 UTC
Would boosting the Apoc's range bonus to 10% make it any more usefull (ala the Rokh's and N.omen's range bonus)?
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2608 - 2013-05-09 20:46:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Leskit wrote:
Would boosting the Apoc's range bonus to 10% make it any more usefull (ala the Rokh's and N.omen's range bonus)?


It isn't the 7.5% that makes it not usable, it's the diverging bonuses. CCP Rise states in the changes he wants to open up the Apoc to beam usage yet doesn't adjust it's PG to fit beams AT ALL (Abaddon is supposed to fit pulses and it has the same PG....WTF?).

So which is it? Fit a PG mod and use beams which have better tracking already which isn't that useful to begin with at your now increased range making the tracking bonus useless. You're still not going to hit frigs flying under your guns and cruisers weren't that tough to hit with beams anyway unless they have full traversal on you. Do you take advantage of the tracking and get in close with pulses then? That sort of defeats the purpose of the range bonus then.

In summary, the Apoc has all the downside of the Abaddon fitting and even more cap problems (if you fit beams) but shares in none of the upside of the better dps and tank bonuses of the Abaddon. It is not a bold prediction that it will be the least used ship in Odyssey.

My fix: Change the Apoc to a 6-7 turret setup and give it a damage bonus instead of the tracking bonus. This gives non-level 5 players and mission runners a choice which they currently don't have and it makes the Apoc into something useful.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2609 - 2013-05-09 23:34:58 UTC
My personal suggestion: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2975209#post2975209

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Dr Ted Kaper
Arondight
#2610 - 2013-05-10 04:11:32 UTC
DAT geddon.. Probably the coolest ship change so far. Welcome to the cheap alternative to the bhaal!
Drunken Bum
#2611 - 2013-05-10 04:14:31 UTC
I think its pretty damn sad that the walking in space thread has more likes for its initial post than all four battleship threads. Yet still no replies from ccp.

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2612 - 2013-05-10 05:12:04 UTC
Dr Ted Kaper wrote:
DAT geddon.. Probably the coolest ship change so far. Welcome to the cheap alternative to the bhaal!

That's exactly the main problem of the "new" Armageddon. It shouldn't be there in first place.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#2613 - 2013-05-10 06:51:04 UTC
Range bonus on heavy neuts is not an op bonus. Dont compare it to Bhaalgorn.

Bhaal has tank, fitting and cap. Even when fitted with only 4 heavy neutralizers it will drain more than Armageddon with full rack, if Armageddon could fit a full rack. Bhaal is a ship that in a nutshell has effectively 8 guns and 5,25 heavy neutralizers fitted at the same time, and has the fitting and the cap to fit all its highs with neuts if he wants, keeping 4-7 targets completely cap starved. And also has awesome range bonus on webs.

And compare the Armageddon to Abaddon as a neut boat. A ship with much, much better tank that can drain significantly more or a ship that has a range bonus? And how many times when you were flying Bhaal or Baddon did you say to yourself "i wish i have 10km more range on these things".

Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#2614 - 2013-05-10 06:56:33 UTC
The thing I don't understand is the Armageddon is much smaller, being 2/3rds of the physical size of the Apoc, and much less imposing to look at. Yet somehow the Apoc is much faster and more agile, has a much smaller sig radius, and weighs less by a significant margin.

This doesn't make any sense, and in light of this, surely the in game models need to be modified to reflect this. The new Apoc model looks even bigger and beefier than before.
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2615 - 2013-05-10 07:13:00 UTC
Our feedback means nothing at this point outside of entertaining ourselves. Why should CCP post anything? They are going to push through all of the Odyssey changes no matter how we feel or think because THEY are satisfied and I am not sure enough players can be motivated to care to stop this until too late and after the fact. The entire battleship re-balance looks like a good idea to have thought on but terribly implemented here. If this is the plan, I honestly wonder if they should have just left the ships alone for now.

It would take a Jita riot level protest with statue shooting and unsub threats players are willing to back up to stop. This is the kind of material that might engender a slow population bleed instead because enough distaste has been created to see players quietly leave as there is no one thing to rally behind.

Odyssey has the potential to be the worst expansion on a substantive level in the history of EVE Online. From outright stupid ship re-balancing, overly simplified probing mechanics that remove play features, little radial wheels for PS4 like interaction, to exploration sites that play out like a mobile phone mini-game with a GW2 gift box loot barf. They thought these were good ideas making EVE more accessible? Where is the depth, detail, logical progression, and internal consistency?

You could just as well say its the start of an absolute throat slitting for qualities that made EVE special in order to try and cash in on dollars from the casual play market that will never enjoy this type of game. It’s like attempting to sell tampons to a motorcycle gang. It is what it is. Quiet acceptance will free hands to include more such silliness.

Maybe I sound too doom and gloom? I need a positive perk me up.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2616 - 2013-05-10 07:15:22 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Range bonus on heavy neuts is not an op bonus. Dont compare it to Bhaalgorn.

I'm not comparing it to Bhallgorn. I'm saying that if you have issues with Bhaal performance - bring them to Bhaal.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2617 - 2013-05-10 07:16:55 UTC
Treatening to unsub won't work. Actual unsub, however, will. Though, due to my subscription plan, this option is not available to me.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#2618 - 2013-05-10 07:40:37 UTC
@CCP

I would really like to hear some feedback on all of this mess.

Also are Navy versions of Apocalypse and Armageddon getting the same treatment? Will Navy Apoc lose tank for a minimal speed increase, and is Navy Geddon getting turned into a drone-neut boat?
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#2619 - 2013-05-10 10:15:44 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
@CCP

I would really like to hear some feedback on all of this mess.

Also are Navy versions of Apocalypse and Armageddon getting the same treatment? Will Navy Apoc lose tank for a minimal speed increase, and is Navy Geddon getting turned into a drone-neut boat?


Their treatment of navy ships in general seems like they're pushing them to a slightly more nieche role. This means a navy ship can be drastically different than the regular T1 (see for instance Stabber vs. SFI or Drake vs. navy Drake). This suggests that fleet ships could have a completely different role as well. For instance, while the Typhoon is a missile ship, there's nothing to say that a Fleet Typhoon couldn't remain the flexible hull that it currently is.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#2620 - 2013-05-10 13:43:17 UTC
Dr Ted Kaper wrote:
DAT geddon.. Probably the coolest ship change so far. Welcome to the cheap alternative to the bhaal!

Nope, sorry dude the coolest thing so far was introduction of the NeX store, second coolest thing so far was removal of the ship hangar, so DAT geddon ... is only a third coolest thing so far. P

Tank Talbot wrote:

Maybe I sound too doom and gloom? I need a positive perk me up.

No probs, CCP Rise tweeted his favorite true story so far, apparently space odyssey that is "Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr Rebalance" don't tickle his fancy.