These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#2581 - 2013-05-09 01:16:13 UTC
I just flied navy Harbinger at sisi and for first feel it feels exactly like BS. Its really slow. Same cap issues. It only has 6L so it gives bit limit to fitting tank and DPS. Yet it has 5 highs and the skin looks nice. I did not get as high DPS out of it with my skills as I hoped or range.

If you liked old Geddon then you might like Navy Harbinger it has slight resemblance.

Yet these ships heavily over lap existing BS hulls and make them more obsolete. Cry
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#2582 - 2013-05-09 01:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

Theia Matova wrote:
I haven't fitted Geddon that intensively but maybe you are looking it from the wrong angle? I mean does it really need lasers and missiles to go with the neuts? Why I made it such fuzz about it is that Geddon really is a drone boat. Yet you can buff the damage output quite intensively if you do fit missiles. Not sure about lasers but since everyone complain about PWG I guess those won't fit.

I am on Sisi just trying to fit the new NBCs but I have to give geddon another look.


Hells bells, lasers are you serious?! X
No one will fit lasers on GedDomi, if people will fit weapons it would be projectiles or rockets.


I am not saying its probably working or good concept but tachys could work. But not other lasers. Tachys gain bit more damage than other lasers. Yet you probably can't fit tachys if everyone complain about PWG.

Its sad that we get nice bonuses for lasers on some ship hulls and seems that the consesus for amarr weapon system being projectiles. Abaddon lacks the range(pulses) / cap or pwg with beams for lasers and geddon is not simply worth it. Making apocalypse only viable laser platform but even it is over matched by oracle. Sad

I guess I will keep testing the ships.. But I guess I will end up flying gallente or minny again. Amarr ships are simply not worth it and it seems CCP is not willing to change that fact.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2583 - 2013-05-09 02:29:39 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

I see your point, but don't you think that having 2 almost identical ships is a bit excessive.


Just playing devil's advocate because I like to:

Like the Abaddon and Armageddon?

Same slots, same powergrid, 20 CPU difference between the two.

They'll both be using lasers, and both armor tanking.

Ugh, I know I've been over this a lot, but I feel the Apoc really needs something else to distinguish it from the Abaddon. Maybe an 8/3/8 layout similar to the old 'geddon.
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2584 - 2013-05-09 04:21:07 UTC
So, any of you flying the re-balanced battleships on the test server? With the large laser changes, how do they preform in actual play?
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2585 - 2013-05-09 04:40:24 UTC
They were on test server (Duality) for last two weeks, approximately. Anything has changed?

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2586 - 2013-05-09 05:21:22 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
They were on test server (Duality) for last two weeks, approximately. Anything has changed?


I didn't think they had the large laser cap rebalancing on Duality during that time? Just the ships.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#2587 - 2013-05-09 05:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Apostrof Ahashion
Tank Talbot wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
They were on test server (Duality) for last two weeks, approximately. Anything has changed?


I didn't think they had the large laser cap rebalancing on Duality during that time? Just the ships.


Abaddon now has 15 seconds longer run time, and that wont bring it back in fleet doctrines. The only tier 3 that is not reimbursed in most 0,0 alliances.

Apocalypse still sucks, it is a cap hungry ship with bad tank, tracking bonus translates to ~25% more damage to cruisers orbiting at 20km, against battleships, frigates and battlecruisers the difference is much smaller. Other ships have that damage bonus in all situations, and in the old apocalypse if i wanted tracking i could fit for tracking, now my slots are occupied with discharge rigs and cap boosters.
And in pve you need all cap related skills at 5 and T2 guns to do something Maelstorms does better with T1 guns and no cap skills.


People are still thinking that Armageddon is a great neut boat even if it has bad tank and cant fit full rack of neuts. Because:
Quote:
It nows haz ranges to get teh interceptors so i can run avay

If fleet interceptors are causing you that much grief in small ganks consider fitting someone with sensor dampeners, since they have like 30km lock range. Problem solved, now you can fly a something that does not suck this much.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2588 - 2013-05-09 07:16:44 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
...Apocalypse still sucks, it is a cap hungry ship with bad tank, tracking bonus translates to ~25% more damage to cruisers orbiting at 20km, against battleships, frigates and battlecruisers the difference is much smaller. Other ships have that damage bonus in all situations, and in the old apocalypse if i wanted tracking i could fit for tracking, now my slots are occupied with discharge rigs and cap boosters....

Sounds good, plausible even .. but did you actually ever fit for tracking or did you just add more bodies to the fleet or more tank?
The ~25% more damage from tracking you mention is infinitely more than what can be achieved with a 25% straight damage, care to guess why? ... the old days of wreckings always hitting and thus allowing damage to compete with tracking are dead and buried, if you can't track you can't do damage, period.

New cap solution/suggestion: \
- Proposed cap reductions (or not) plus a 20% reduction attached to heatsinks (~50% w. 3 sinks after stacking) ... basically roll an elutriation rig into the sinks (and magstabs if desired/needed/wanted)
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2589 - 2013-05-09 07:41:33 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:


Sounds good, plausible even .. but did you actually ever fit for tracking or did you just add more bodies to the fleet or more tank?
The ~25% more damage from tracking you mention is infinitely more than what can be achieved with a 25% straight damage, care to guess why? ... the old days of wreckings always hitting and thus allowing damage to compete with tracking are dead and buried, if you can't track you can't do damage, period.


How many fits would sacrifice a damage mod for a tracking mod? Seriously, maybe this is just EFT syndrome, but I haven't heard of many fleet ships wanting to sacrifice a heat sink for a tracking enhancer.

A tracking computer, scripted, gives a 30% bonus to either tracking or range, which can be changed as needed, because if you need range, you don't need tracking- there are a few exceptions to this. Two TC's negates the Apoc's 'amazing' bonus.

And what do we lose? A discharge rig, and a cap booster, just in order to use guns, is two slots right there- is a rig slot worth a mid slot?
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#2590 - 2013-05-09 09:26:54 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
...Apocalypse still sucks, it is a cap hungry ship with bad tank, tracking bonus translates to ~25% more damage to cruisers orbiting at 20km, against battleships, frigates and battlecruisers the difference is much smaller. Other ships have that damage bonus in all situations, and in the old apocalypse if i wanted tracking i could fit for tracking, now my slots are occupied with discharge rigs and cap boosters....

Sounds good, plausible even .. but did you actually ever fit for tracking or did you just add more bodies to the fleet or more tank?
The ~25% more damage from tracking you mention is infinitely more than what can be achieved with a 25% straight damage, care to guess why? ... the old days of wreckings always hitting and thus allowing damage to compete with tracking are dead and buried, if you can't track you can't do damage, period.

New cap solution/suggestion: \
- Proposed cap reductions (or not) plus a 20% reduction attached to heatsinks (~50% w. 3 sinks after stacking) ... basically roll an elutriation rig into the sinks (and magstabs if desired/needed/wanted)



TEST: 8 Mega pulse lasers shooting stuff at different ranges with Scorch crystals:

25% bonus damage hull:
Targets at 10km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 0 dps; battlecruiser 218 dps; battleship 333 dps;
Targets at 20km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 40 dps; battlecruiser 370 dps; battleship 415dps;
Targets at 30km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 125 dps; battlecruiser 412 dps; battleship 442 dps;
Targets at 40km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 211 dps; battlecruiser 427 dps; battleship 442 dps;

37,5% bonus tracking hull:
Targets at 10km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 0 dps; battlecruiser 246 dps; battleship 306 dps;
Targets at 20km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 80 dps; battlecruiser 324 dps; battleship 344 dps;
Targets at 30km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 176 dps; battlecruiser 343 dps; battleship 350 dps;
Targets at 40km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 238 dps; battlecruiser 350 dps; battleship 350 dps;

And now with some damage mods fitted in there:

25% bonus damage hull fitted with tracking computer and 2 heat sinks:
Targets at 10km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 20 dps; battlecruiser 433 dps; battleship 650 dps;
Targets at 20km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 130 dps; battlecruiser 589 dps; battleship 650 dps;
Targets at 30km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 300 dps; battlecruiser 627dps; battleship 650 dps;
Targets at 40km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 417 dps; battlecruiser 641 dps; battleship 650 dps;

37,5% bonus tracking hull fitted with tracking computer and 2 heat sinks:
Targets at 10km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 34 dps; battlecruiser 421 dps; battleship 520 dps;
Targets at 20km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 200 dps; battlecruiser 496 dps; battleship 520 dps;
Targets at 30km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 342 dps; battlecruiser 513 dps; battleship 520 dps;
Targets at 40km in perfect orbit - frigate 0 dps; cruiser 411 dps; battlecruiser 519 dps; battleship 520 dps;


The only time tracking bonus will outperform damage bonus significantly is when shooting cruisers that orbit at 20-30km. So yeah, the tracking bonus is situational.

Bonuses work as percentages, that is why tracking bonus on Mega is good because the base tracking speed is good. Shooting cruisers at 20km with null mega will do over 200 dps with no mods, and almost 400 dps with 2 magnetic field stabilizers and tracking computer, double damage compared to Apocalypse. That bonus on Mega is good because it is reinforcing one of the main advantages of hybrids.

The same could be said about Apocalypses optimal bonus. But unlike damage and tracking you can have more optimal than you need. You will never have 100% chance to hit and you will never one shot things so more damage and more tracking is always good, more optimal than the actual engagement range is wasted. Taking this and the above test in consideration:

Apocalypse is useless. Compared to the Abaddon it will almost always do inferior damage, its optimal bonus is almost always wasted and it has much worse base stats. No one will use it over Abaddon.

Quote:
The ~25% more damage from tracking you mention is infinitely more than what can be achieved with a 25% straight damage, care to guess why?


Dont know where you learned math dude, here on earth ~25% more is ~25% more.
LuisWu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2591 - 2013-05-09 13:02:31 UTC
I too think the Apoc its not worth the money, no damage bonus means you need 3 heat sinks in order to actually have some damage to apply (around 730 dps with IMF and megapulses, not very impressive). But that leaves you with less than 100k ehp a bit low for a BS imo, I think as an ABS I would prefer to fly the new Tempest, a bit more armor, damage selection, utility slots, a bit less sig radius and slighty more speed, no cap weakness... I´m not saying it´s OP , just slighty better than the apoc.

But I admit I don´t have experience in large fleet fights so maybe it´s usefull there.

F*** This Game
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#2592 - 2013-05-09 13:20:05 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:

Apocalypse is useless. Compared to the Abaddon it will almost always do inferior damage, its optimal bonus is almost always wasted and it has much worse base stats. No one will use it over Abaddon.


Hmm I dont think Apocalypses bonuses but it does have issues. And yes Abddon will be preferred.

Every hull size has base purpose. Frigates are extremely fast and agile. Cruisers are quite balanced in terms of speed EHP. BCes are also flexible ships that have higher EHP. Battleships are about EHP they are the most durable sub capital type.

My point being each hull size having their own trait speed or EHP.

So if BS main trait is durability shouldnt abaddon and apocalypse EHP and tank be almost the same that these ships can be in balance?

Apocalypses bonuses help it to hit small ships I think that is great role for BS.

However how the roles were divided for BSes I do not agree. Attack battleship is a joke as term. We have battlecruiser now we get navy battcruisers that have similar EHP to BSes. So in my eyes if there is ABS role its already taken by BC hulls.

I think apocalypses bonuses fit good to many situation. It can hit in situation when Abaddon is missing BUT for the BSes to be in balance or making this BC and BS nonesense to make any sense Abaddon and apocalypse EHP and tank has to balance out.

I hate to say it since I love Abaddon but the resistance mod is OP and it will make other BSes remain in shadow in the amarr BS ship line.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2593 - 2013-05-09 13:28:03 UTC
The ships are now up on SiSi if anyone is interested.

The ship skills changes are also in there for those that are wondering as well.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2594 - 2013-05-09 13:30:48 UTC
Is it to late to ask that the new geddon is getting something like a bonus to activation energy instead of range? Regarding the neuts. That rangebonus indeed is insanely powerful.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#2595 - 2013-05-09 14:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Apostrof Ahashion
Theia Matova wrote:

Apocalypses bonuses help it to hit small ships I think that is great role for BS.


As you can see from the test the difference is really small, and only when shooting cruisers in perfect orbits. In large fleet fights there are no perfect orbits, and in small/solo engagements they will get under your guns where tracking does not matter.

And also that test was done with t1 cruisers fitted with mwd. Against T2 AHAC-s your damage will be 18 dps at 50km with tracking bonus and 5 dps without it, no difference at all practically. You wont even hit them when they are closer than that.

Also as far as Battleships that are good agains smaller hulls Mega is 2X better. Apoc does not have its small niche there.

LuisWu wrote:
I too think the Apoc its not worth the money, no damage bonus means you need 3 heat sinks in order to actually have some damage to apply (around 730 dps with IMF and megapulses, not very impressive). But that leaves you with less than 100k ehp a bit low for a BS imo, I think as an ABS I would prefer to fly the new Tempest, a bit more armor, damage selection, utility slots, a bit less sig radius and slighty more speed, no cap weakness... I´m not saying it´s OP , just slighty better than the apoc.

But I admit I don´t have experience in large fleet fights so maybe it´s usefull there.


It outclassed by Abaddon in every possible way.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#2596 - 2013-05-09 15:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashlar Vellum
Theia Matova wrote:

Its sad that we get nice bonuses for lasers on some ship hulls and seems that the consesus for amarr weapon system being projectiles.

Exactly, but when I said that someone went full drama queen.

We got Abaddon with cap problems that were intended for some unexplained reason according to some people. We got Apoc that is lol Oracle, but slower, with bigger sig, can't fit long range weapons properly, has a funny tank for a battleship and guess what, it has lousy cap. On top of that we got this thing - GedDomi that is just well ... Well I think I said enough, because I'm literally starting to copy paste my previous posts.

So no I'm not sad, I'm not mad, I am just extremely disappointed. I'm disappointed that a great dev with all his knowledge was too lazy and did what he did and then called it balance.

Naso Aya wrote:
Just playing devil's advocate because I like to:

Like the Abaddon and Armageddon?

Same slots, same powergrid, 20 CPU difference between the two.

They'll both be using lasers, and both armor tanking.

Ugh, I know I've been over this a lot, but I feel the Apoc really needs something else to distinguish it from the Abaddon. Maybe an 8/3/8 layout similar to the old 'geddon.

Why not 7/4/8 less guns = more cap +1 low +1 mid (and it has mega slot layout now, bloody hellX), but then it needs damage bonus for -1 turret and you can't add RoF without adding more cap recharge.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2597 - 2013-05-09 15:05:17 UTC
So, just to reiterate the proposed changes in this thread so far:
Abbadon to a 7 turret 7.5% damage boat - do with the nonturret slot as felt appropriate, Abbadon to a 6 turret boat with 10% damage - do with the slots as appropriate; Abaddon cap raised 6750/1125/6.0 (averaged these specific numbers out from those suggested so far);

Apocalypse to lose range bonus in favor of either a ROF or Damage bonus (if ROF, give it more cap as well) while keeping the tracking bonus;

Armegeddon to have more PG to be able to fit a full rack of nuets or Tachs and Neuts.

(I deliberately left out suggestions that would completely ignore the tiericide initiative as those would definately only get ignored.)
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#2598 - 2013-05-09 15:26:33 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
So, just to reiterate the proposed changes in this thread so far:
Abbadon to a 7 turret 7.5% damage boat - do with the nonturret slot as felt appropriate, Abbadon to a 6 turret boat with 10% damage - do with the slots as appropriate; Abaddon cap raised 6750/1125/6.0 (averaged these specific numbers out from those suggested so far);

Apocalypse to lose range bonus in favor of either a ROF or Damage bonus (if ROF, give it more cap as well) while keeping the tracking bonus;

Armegeddon to have more PG to be able to fit a full rack of nuets or Tachs and Neuts.

(I deliberately left out suggestions that would completely ignore the tiericide initiative as those would definately only get ignored.)

Also would be cool if devs consider Marlona Sky's Battleship Role Bonus, but maybe that would be just too awesomesauce.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2599 - 2013-05-09 16:42:18 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:


Armegeddon to have more PG to be able to fit a full rack of nuets or Tachs and Neuts.

(I deliberately left out suggestions that would completely ignore the tiericide initiative as those would definately only get ignored.)


Then you should have left that statement out. First off, unbonused, the Armageddon will never fire lasers. Period. Secondly, CCP Rise specifically reduced the Powergrid on the Armageddon so it couldn't fit a whole row of Neus. Maybe I'm miss-remembering, but I believe it was in response to people claiming he Armageddon to be too OP.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2600 - 2013-05-09 17:24:31 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:


Armegeddon to have more PG to be able to fit a full rack of nuets or Tachs and Neuts.

(I deliberately left out suggestions that would completely ignore the tiericide initiative as those would definately only get ignored.)


Then you should have left that statement out. First off, unbonused, the Armageddon will never fire lasers. Period. Secondly, CCP Rise specifically reduced the Powergrid on the Armageddon so it couldn't fit a whole row of Neus. Maybe I'm miss-remembering, but I believe it was in response to people claiming he Armageddon to be too OP.

Ahh, thanks, I must have forgotten that one :)