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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2481 - 2013-05-07 22:02:16 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
That have already been said, but the Abaddon was designed with this cap weakness originaly, and we can't say that really prevent it to become a renowned and mighty battleship. Its poor cap is only here to compensate for the rest.

Tier3 BS were the most balanced BS, and never heard anyone complain about them in the past. They were the best BS you can have, and with the tiericide, their performances haven't changed.

The worst to happen could be a "Rifter effect", but considering the changes, that's very unlikely : no other armor ship have a resist bonus, so the tank of the Abaddon will still be unmatched, and the the primary reason for its effectiveness.

To top it off, large laser received a buff too. Pulse will be better than ever, and beams will be usable. You still won't be able to fit everything you want for beam setup, but that will be possible with no fitting module, and the cap will be easier than before.

Large lasers received no such buff. previosuly, with ship bonus', we had a 50% reduction in cap use, now we have only a net 10% from the guns, meaning we use 40% mroe cap, yes ut fitting is easier, but this is offset by the fact that we have to use that extra fitting space to fit more cap boosters in our mids.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2482 - 2013-05-07 22:07:42 UTC
Best to ignore that Bouh guy, even when he isn't obviously trolling he's full of misinformation.

But I can't resist pointing out the worst piece of misinformation he's pushing.. The Abaddon has always been called out for it's crap cap, it was never considered fine outside of large fleet roles, and never will be.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#2483 - 2013-05-07 22:40:14 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Best to ignore that Bouh guy, even when he isn't obviously trolling he's full of misinformation.

But I can't resist pointing out the worst piece of misinformation he's pushing.. The Abaddon has always been called out for it's crap cap, it was never considered fine outside of large fleet roles, and never will be.


I've been ignoring him for the last 30 pages, he been trying to manipulate the devs into buffing hybrids (which work really well) whilst campaigning to keep other races guns weak. Thing is though he's in the wrong thread, if he wants to be listened to he should post in the gay-llante thread, they get changes in less than 2 hours.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2484 - 2013-05-07 22:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Pelea Ming wrote:
Best to ignore that Bouh guy, even when he isn't obviously trolling he's full of misinformation.

But I can't resist pointing out the worst piece of misinformation he's pushing.. The Abaddon has always been called out for it's crap cap, it was never considered fine outside of large fleet roles, and never will be.


At least pre-Odyssey non-lvl 5 players could go with a Geddon for solo play and missioning, but none of the ships in the new lineup come close to being mission playable. Until you get access to Scorch beams are your only option and as this thread has outlined, the beam fits available to Amarr BS's face significantly more tradeoffs (can't active tank the Baddon and Apoc, while drones are awful for missioning without level 5 interfacing). I know everybody only cares about PvP and blob fights, but this is a serious concern of mine as that is the primary activity of newer players and I don't want them getting discouraged with Amarr ships off the bat.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#2485 - 2013-05-07 22:54:39 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:

Most of his older vids are nearly exclusively done in the geddon and abaddon. Most of them where done before the QR expansion where the BS class where more useful as solo/small gang pvp ships(more speed, 90% webs, pretty soft nano targets, no TEs and therefore a lot less range on smaller hulls etc.).

You can watch one right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2psM6BC3Jo&pxtry=1


Thanks Jills. I only knew he flied ABCs and other smaller ships. Haven't looked into so old vids.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#2486 - 2013-05-07 23:10:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
Theia Matova wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

Amarr doesnt need to be minmatarded, we dont need to "ross fit for shields", were an armor race.

the only issue we ever had was cap, not our speed, the speed could be rectified EASILY if we were allowed to fit a prop mod. the ONLY thing CCP would have had to change to balance Amarr ships compared to everyone else, would be to increase our cap and cap regen SIGNIFICANTLY.


Thats completely different topic yet since you brought it up.

Amarr needs flexibility in resistance. Also Amarr ships should not be left out from fleets that specialize to shields. Yes they should not be best but they should not be excluded. This same goes for Caldari. Caldari ships should not be left out from armor fleets. They should not be the best armor tank ships but they should be able to do that job.

Amarr also needs either flexibility in damage type (drones or launchers) or new game mechanic that enables lasers and hybrids pierce through the resistance type they deal. Taht lasers raw DPS has to be higher than other weapon systems simply causes more grief because people who fly the ships say the damage is ok and those who look the raw numbers are like OMG!!! lasssers are so OP!!!. I hope that they add mechanism that can bring laser DPS on the level of other weapon systems. So that we can keep lasers as iconic Amarr weapon system. Third option would be actually re minnify Amarr ship giving them optinal launcher slots that you could use to gain different damage types.

Those are facts it might not fit your view about Amarr but to get the races truly in balance we need these changes.

What comes to fitting mods for speed. Those mods take away either damage mod or tank mod. Included they also take away trivial things like cargo hold, structure or give signature radius. CCP cannot add low slots to Amarr ships because if they would give us more low slots we would be able to either make impossible tank or over DPS. So it does make bit of sense that you lose tank when fitting these stats but with Amarr ships you can easily gimp yourself with other aspect. What I refered to was that Geddon could be basically attack BS that could have little faster speed in comparison to regular Amarr ships. But attack BS concept will never work because of fucky cap of Amarr ships. Plus Geddon is a lost cause now.

Cap is also an issue especially in PVP where Amarr lack mids to fit proper cap capacity / regen since every mid mod we fit is basically out from cap regen. If CCP would give bigger cap pool and little bit more regen we could probably be able to use some of those slots to something useful.

All in all this all comes down to ship versatily. Amarr have really really little versatility well (excluding the new Geddon which is not Amarr boat..) Amarrs will need to flex one of those things is to get proper cap that we can actually use those precious mid slots to something else that keep our ship just not to shutdown.


What you are suggesting amounts to homogenization, the consensus across the thread is that homogenization is bad and racial strengths and differences are good. The amarr also have a tradition of fleet doctrines that are very inflexible, but alledgly work, and work well. All we want is for amarr ships to work as CCP keep on telling us how they work.

I don't mind flying a brick, but it needs to be able to tank well and to project power to make up for being a large immobile brick.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2487 - 2013-05-07 23:26:05 UTC
Arline Kley wrote:

However, starting a thread, clearly stating that you will listen to the players, before utterly abandoning them is the reason people are not happy Tank. While I admit I have been probing towards CCP Rise, I just want him to actually read what the players are stating, rather than utterly relying on the "Metrics. " Sometimes our information comes to us via entirely different threads to this one.


I am not following the other threads. I assume he writes when warranted and otherwise wants to stay above the brawl. I leave it at that.

Arline Kley wrote:

You do realise Tank, that the Naval versions of the ships are literally going to be the ships we are flying now, with just a fancy paint job. The problem most people are having with these changes is that they serve absolutely no purpose, other than to further punish players for trying to fly Amarrian ships. We don't want a ship that is stepping on the toes of 3 other ships, and neither do we want a ship that has zero bonuses to the supposed main weapons system of the Amarr. While having a ship that does another job is always welcome, trashing an entire racial battleship line for such is never welcome.


I know that Naval versions are likely to be tweaked versions of our new YUGOs. However, I once thought a geddon had to be a laser boat and an Apoc / badon able to shoot its guns for more than three volley before burning up its cap. Since that didn’t happen I was optimistic and hopeful other changes might be made to finally flesh out the Battleship roles for all of the race line ups too. I already noted how I felt about the train another race's ship line of thought in a previous post considering their expressed objective in this rebalance...

Arline Kley wrote:

Unfortunately Tank, patience can only last for so long before we are get annoyed - given CCP's past history, it is better to err on the side of caution and understand that they don't actually have a clue what they are doing.


CCP is never going to recover rep from that whole boot.ini thing are they?
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#2488 - 2013-05-08 01:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

What you are suggesting amounts to homogenization, the consensus across the thread is that homogenization is bad and racial strengths and differences are good. The amarr also have a tradition of fleet doctrines that are very inflexible, but alledgly work, and work well. All we want is for amarr ships to work as CCP keep on telling us how they work.

I don't mind flying a brick, but it needs to be able to tank well and to project power to make up for being a large immobile brick.


People mean very many things with homogenization. I do not mean that every ship should be the same no. Nor that every ship should have every same capability. If you read what I said I said Amarrs should have BRICK/S but not every ship should be a brick. Apocalypse funnily is this but honestly I think its more of a joke than real effort. If you want speed and damage and sniper platform you go for oracle because its better.

Also I suggest way for lasers able to over come the fact that lasers are stuck to em/thermal by adding resistance piercing which is not same as shooting missiles or using drones or causing versatile damage. It would drive same purpose but in different manner. New Geddon is versatile damage type but really its a puke. Geddon hull doesn't look at all like a drone boat. This weird mix of missiles and drones both which makes Geddon completely cap free on weapon system btw. I know that its probably OP as it is but I do not care about that. Its simply a puke and a mistake. If they wanted to make a ewar hull they should have added a new hull or take Apoc rather but then someone else had whined. So only real way to go had been a new hull.

What comes to versatility tank. Amarr ships are we too predictable for resistance vulnerability. This seriously sucks. Again I suggest other type of mechanism how we could be able to shift resistances more easily so that Amarr hulls would not be as dumb and easy to predict. And yes Amarrs should have at least one hull that is capable of shield tanking that we keep see also Amarr brown/gold in shield fleets too.

Unlike most people that whine that Amarr BSes should be able to fit 8 tachyons I am against that. We should be able to get decent DPS with 6-7 turrets and leave the last slot/s for utility. I also like that you can fit exactly 7 Tachys save one for utility and still have decent DPS. Beams are generally better yes but Tachys are ok. Now geddon is the only hull that will get real utility highs.

Amarrs are vulnerable to almost all ewar, no versatile in damage type or tank. Amarr needs more flexibility. Lasers needs to be adjusted in damage/cap consumption/armor penetration. And we need utility high.

And no I do not want to fly Minny eventually I do but I do not want to because I loved Amarr ship design since I joined. I cannot stand gun noises or the crude look of other races ships. Ironically I tried to avoid drones by changing from gallente -> minny -> amarr and now Amarr got drone boats I also loved that Amarr had launchers in their ships but seems those are now history. Its weird that Minnies have been free for quite a time and their ships still look as if it they were made of scrap metal, gallente ship look like flying tumors and caldari ships are just shoe boxes.

The irony of all this is that I will most likely end up flying Geddon.. a drone platform that I wanted to avoid. Since its the only one that does not have serious cap issues. Anyway you got me CCP! Can't avoid flying drone boat now Ugh
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2489 - 2013-05-08 01:32:02 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

What you are suggesting amounts to homogenization, the consensus across the thread is that homogenization is bad and racial strengths and differences are good. The amarr also have a tradition of fleet doctrines that are very inflexible, but alledgly work, and work well. All we want is for amarr ships to work as CCP keep on telling us how they work.

I don't mind flying a brick, but it needs to be able to tank well and to project power to make up for being a large immobile brick.


People mean very many things with homogenization. I do not mean that every ship should be the same no. Nor that every ship should have every same capability. If you read what I said I said Amarrs should have BRICK/S but not every ship should be a brick. Apocalypse funnily is this but honestly I think its more of a joke than real effort. If you want speed and damage and sniper platform you go for oracle because its better.

Also I suggest way for lasers able to over come the fact that lasers are stuck to em/thermal by adding resistance piercing which is not same as shooting missiles or using drones or causing versatile damage. It would drive same purpose but in different manner. New Geddon is versatile damage type but really its a puke. Geddon hull doesn't look at all like a drone boat. This weird mix of missiles and drones both which makes Geddon completely cap free on weapon system btw. I know that its probably OP as it is but I do not care about that. Its simply a puke and a mistake. If they wanted to make a ewar hull they should have added a new hull or take Apoc rather but then someone else had whined. So only real way to go had been a new hull.

What comes to versatility tank. Amarr ships are we too predictable for resistance vulnerability. This seriously sucks. Again I suggest other type of mechanism how we could be able to shift resistances more easily so that Amarr hulls would not be as dumb and easy to predict. And yes Amarrs should have at least one hull that is capable of shield tanking that we keep see also Amarr brown/gold in shield fleets too.

Unlike most people that whine that Amarr BSes should be able to fit 8 tachyons I am against that. We should be able to get decent DPS with 6-7 turrets and leave the last slot/s for utility. I also like that you can fit exactly 7 Tachys save one for utility and still have decent DPS. Beams are generally better yes but Tachys are ok. Now geddon is the only hull that will get real utility highs.

Amarrs are vulnerable to almost all ewar, no versatile in damage type or tank. Amarr needs more flexibility. Lasers needs to be adjusted in damage/cap consumption/armor penetration. And we need utility high.

And no I do not want to fly Minny eventually I do but I do not want to because I loved Amarr ship design since I joined. I cannot stand gun noises or the crude look of other races ships. Ironically I tried to avoid drones by changing from gallente -> minny -> amarr and now Amarr got drone boats I also loved that Amarr had launchers in their ships but seems those are now history. Its weird that Minnies have been free for quite a time and their ships still look as if it they were made of scrap metal, gallente ship look like flying tumors and caldari ships are just shoe boxes.

The irony of all this is that I will most likely end up flying Geddon.. a drone platform that I wanted to avoid. Since its the only one that does not have serious cap issues. Anyway you got me CCP! Can't avoid flying drone boat now Ugh

I'm going to avoid responding to most of your post and go ahead and clarify one thing that is the source of ALOT of people's anger.

originally the drne/missile/neut ship was SUPPOSED to be a fourth hull, it was in a devblog and several CXP posts, however CCP rise decided it would be better to eliminate the armageddon and replace it with this gallente-spy-ship, then proceed to nerf all of our ships by removing our ability to fit full rack fo lows and our ability to fire our guns without outfitting all of our newfound midslots with cap boosters.



infact that is also a HUGE hole in your amarr "should be able to shield tank" arguement, lasers CANT fit shield effectively, ebcause they ahve such a huge cap draw, even now, cap boostsers are a REQUIREMENT on all pvp fits.


and as for "resisitance piercing", lasers already had a somewhat compensation for their fitting and difficulties, and thast that at medium-long range, were gods, you will ALWAYS be in an amarr ships optimal, all they have to do is switch crystals which can be done instantaneously, though with the buffs other races and weapons systems have received, that optimal advantage has fallen out of favor.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2490 - 2013-05-08 01:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius
Yeah I'm sick to death of CCP buffing Gallente if the Gallente pilots b i t c h for under 2 hours, and buffing Minmatar all the time cause CCP are biased f u c k s, and always either ignoring Amarr and the Caldari or give them the shaft.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2491 - 2013-05-08 01:59:41 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

and as for "resisitance piercing", lasers already had a somewhat compensation for their fitting and difficulties, and thast that at medium-long range, were gods, you will ALWAYS be in an amarr ships optimal, all they have to do is switch crystals which can be done instantaneously, though with the buffs other races and weapons systems have received, that optimal advantage has fallen out of favor.


Can't you say that about anyone's ammo switching though? The only advantage is you save the 5 or 10 seconds loading which I would trade any day for the fitting and cap usage. Switching from I.N. MF or Gleam and your dps drops like a stone anyway (but your cap usage doesn't).
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2492 - 2013-05-08 02:16:29 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

and as for "resisitance piercing", lasers already had a somewhat compensation for their fitting and difficulties, and thast that at medium-long range, were gods, you will ALWAYS be in an amarr ships optimal, all they have to do is switch crystals which can be done instantaneously, though with the buffs other races and weapons systems have received, that optimal advantage has fallen out of favor.


Can't you say that about anyone's ammo switching though? The only advantage is you save the 5 or 10 seconds loading which I would trade any day for the fitting and cap usage. Switching from I.N. MF or Gleam and your dps drops like a stone anyway (but your cap usage doesn't).

5 or 10 seconds is not advantage, it's a loss of DPS for anyone else. And we're not talking about swtitching from MF to Gleam. Yeah, go guess, there's people who know how to actually use lasers, and not just fit MF and wonder, why they can't kill anything.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2493 - 2013-05-08 02:19:16 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Can't you say that about anyone's ammo switching though? The only advantage is you save the 5 or 10 seconds loading which I would trade any day for the fitting and cap usage. Switching from I.N. MF or Gleam and your dps drops like a stone anyway (but your cap usage doesn't).

Why don't you fly gallente/minmatar/caldari then ? If you don't value amarr weapons advantages and only care about their drawbacks, that mean they are not meant for your playstyle.
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2494 - 2013-05-08 02:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tank Talbot
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Yeah I'm sick to death of CCP buffing Gallente if the Gallente pilots b i t c h for under 2 hours, and buffing Minmatar all the time cause CCP are biased f u c k s, and always either ignoring Amarr and the Caldari or give them the shaft.


I will admit that the buff to the Maelstrom in order to make it "a better fleet ship" rankles of all kinds of wrong (to the point of cheating) when you consider who uses it now and in what numbers. It makes it hard to excuse leaving the Abaddon as is considering. With that cap I guess they just want everyone fielding artillery.

PS: Posted today -

CCP Habakuk wrote:
...Btw: The plan for the update of Sisi to Odyssey features is looking good. More info tomorrow.On the bad side: Automated reactivation will have to wait for a bit longer. Straight


Look forward to some early feedback on how the ships work with the new large laser rebalance. We can finally see if paper agrees with actual play fears.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2495 - 2013-05-08 03:21:47 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

and as for "resisitance piercing", lasers already had a somewhat compensation for their fitting and difficulties, and thast that at medium-long range, were gods, you will ALWAYS be in an amarr ships optimal, all they have to do is switch crystals which can be done instantaneously, though with the buffs other races and weapons systems have received, that optimal advantage has fallen out of favor.


Can't you say that about anyone's ammo switching though? The only advantage is you save the 5 or 10 seconds loading which I would trade any day for the fitting and cap usage. Switching from I.N. MF or Gleam and your dps drops like a stone anyway (but your cap usage doesn't).

5 or 10 seconds is not advantage, it's a loss of DPS for anyone else. And we're not talking about swtitching from MF to Gleam. Yeah, go guess, there's people who know how to actually use lasers, and not just fit MF and wonder, why they can't kill anything.


I didn't say switching from MF to Gleam I said switching from either one. Judging by the lack of popularity of beams and the success of the others, not many other people are making that trade either no matter what advantage you say it gives them.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2496 - 2013-05-08 03:23:27 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Can't you say that about anyone's ammo switching though? The only advantage is you save the 5 or 10 seconds loading which I would trade any day for the fitting and cap usage. Switching from I.N. MF or Gleam and your dps drops like a stone anyway (but your cap usage doesn't).

Why don't you fly gallente/minmatar/caldari then ? If you don't value amarr weapons advantages and only care about their drawbacks, that mean they are not meant for your playstyle.


You can only advocate for changes that directly affect you and your play style?
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#2497 - 2013-05-08 04:02:27 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Yeah I'm sick to death of CCP buffing Gallente if the Gallente pilots b i t c h for under 2 hours, and buffing Minmatar all the time cause CCP are biased f u c k s, and always either ignoring Amarr and the Caldari or give them the shaft.

I'm sorry but I've yet to see any thread were anyone asked for the Mega to trade drones for dps, I haven't seen the dominix get it's hybrid bonus back, and I haven't seen a single thread where anyone asked for the Hyperion to gain bandwidth at the cost of gun dps. Don't blame us, it's not our fault that ccp does what they do.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Emily Jean McKenna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2498 - 2013-05-08 05:56:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Jean McKenna
Tank Talbot wrote:


CCP is never going to recover rep from that whole boot.ini thing are they?


How about something more recent like Incarna...

They didnt listen then, and arent going to listen now.
Emily Jean McKenna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2499 - 2013-05-08 05:59:04 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Yeah I'm sick to death of CCP buffing Gallente if the Gallente pilots b i t c h for under 2 hours, and buffing Minmatar all the time cause CCP are biased f u c k s, and always either ignoring Amarr and the Caldari or give them the shaft.

I'm sorry but I've yet to see any thread were anyone asked for the Mega to trade drones for dps, I haven't seen the dominix get it's hybrid bonus back, and I haven't seen a single thread where anyone asked for the Hyperion to gain bandwidth at the cost of gun dps. Don't blame us, it's not our fault that ccp does what they do.


This by far, most of the ship changes are pure trash. Gallente and Amarr the most. Dont get me wrong, Ive never like the Hyperion. But the Armageddon and Dominix were my favorite BS to fly... now forget it
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#2500 - 2013-05-08 07:49:01 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Yeah I'm sick to death of CCP buffing Gallente if the Gallente pilots b i t c h for under 2 hours, and buffing Minmatar all the time cause CCP are biased f u c k s, and always either ignoring Amarr and the Caldari or give them the shaft.

I'm sorry but I've yet to see any thread were anyone asked for the Mega to trade drones for dps, I haven't seen the dominix get it's hybrid bonus back, and I haven't seen a single thread where anyone asked for the Hyperion to gain bandwidth at the cost of gun dps. Don't blame us, it's not our fault that ccp does what they do.



Hyperion gained gun dps, gained one utility high and one low, gained capacitor, drones.... dont know how can you possibly consider any of this a bad thing. Megathon gained a low, and was that worth the drone loss is debatable, i personally like the old mega more. Dominix with sentries is just plain op atm and also gained buffs across the board.

Every Amarr ship is nerfed - Abaddon lost resistances, Apocalypse got its tank and capacitor destroyed, and Armageddon became a useless neut boat.