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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#2421 - 2013-05-05 16:14:23 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
I still don't understand the logic behind the apoc becoming the attack Bs, isn't that more the role of a ship that's, suppose to get close because of it's bonuses (aka geddon) instead of one that has it's bonuses in applying damage at a range . The title isn't the cause of my dissatisfaction, but the signature radius and speed that comes with it.

actually, no, the role of Combat hull from all of these tiericides is being kept to the "Brawler" hulls, those meant to go in close.
Your Attack role hulls are meant to make use of range (and at least on the non-BS) some maneuverability and such. I'd recommend an MJD on the Apoc to help with this aspect.

Oh I think I see your point, attack hulls are meant to dictate range better while combat hulls are meant to be dedicated brawlers (with a few exceptions).

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2422 - 2013-05-05 18:12:12 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:


Where in Satan questions the sanctity of marriage while attempting to lead the Righteous astray and into embracing the methodology of the heretic rather than fixing the Amarr Battleship inadequacies...



Even heaven and hell are in agreement that there is a problem! You see this CCP?

***

From my perspective, the issue boils down to a desire for a worthy, more cap stable, mission runner and general combatant (why we have combat role ships right?) to compete with the other races' ship line up rather than being stuck with what amounts to "just a hellcat," a pure sniper, and a drone ship. Right now, it feels like there is a big gaping hole in the Amarr line to most posters and they don't want to be forced to cross train to fill it as the other races don't have to. My solution was to "Hyperion-ize" the Abaddon, or to make it a more versatile and cap stable straight up brawler by: dropping a high slot for a mid, increasing the damage bonus to compensate, keeping 7 turrets and perhaps 2 launchers, adding more drone bandwidth and bay, and revamping laser cap costs to keep fiting reasonable for what you field. Other suggestions have been posted. I don't claim mine is the best but it at least starts to address the root problem. We want options to fly whom we like reasonably and not be forced into heathen hulls by default.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2423 - 2013-05-05 19:22:23 UTC
Tank Talbot wrote:

Even heaven and hell are in agreement that there is a problem! You see this CCP?


Be not deceived, for the Great Beast shall not be mocked. Again I say unto ye, embrace the path of the slave, the heathen, and the heretic races, for it is with their own methods and devices that they shall be brought to heel (and correspondingly, to hell). For the inferior races contain within themselves the seeds of their own destruction.

So shall it be written. So shall it be done.
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2424 - 2013-05-05 19:55:29 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Tank Talbot wrote:

Even heaven and hell are in agreement that there is a problem! You see this CCP?


Be not deceived, for the Great Beast shall not be mocked. Again I say unto ye, embrace the path of the slave, the heathen, and the heretic races, for it is with their own methods and devices that they shall be brought to heel (and correspondingly, to hell). For the inferior races contain within themselves the seeds of their own destruction.

So shall it be written. So shall it be done.


Pfft... sell out. You just want to protect the "hell"-cat for "your" own ends, leaving us stuck with a null-coaster, rather than see Amarr gain a useful and worthwhile ship for everyone that brings balance to the empire ship options, ends the argument, and leaves mostly satisfied capsuleers all around.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2425 - 2013-05-05 19:58:26 UTC
Tank Talbot wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Tank Talbot wrote:

Even heaven and hell are in agreement that there is a problem! You see this CCP?


Be not deceived, for the Great Beast shall not be mocked. Again I say unto ye, embrace the path of the slave, the heathen, and the heretic races, for it is with their own methods and devices that they shall be brought to heel (and correspondingly, to hell). For the inferior races contain within themselves the seeds of their own destruction.

So shall it be written. So shall it be done.


Pfft... sell out. You just want to protect the "hell"-cat for "your" own ends, leaving us stuck with a null-coaster, rather than see Amarr gain a useful and worthwhile ship for everyone that brings balance to the empire ship options, ends the argument, and leaves mostly satisfied capsuleers all around.


Uh, you misunderstand him greatly. He is suggesting we abandon the Amarr battleship lineup entirely to show them that it's not a good change. A strike of sorts.

But since they don't really rebalance things based on what's used and what isn't, (or a few things would have been done differently, that's for sure), I don't see this as likely to succeed.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2426 - 2013-05-05 20:24:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tank Talbot wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Tank Talbot wrote:

Even heaven and hell are in agreement that there is a problem! You see this CCP?


Be not deceived, for the Great Beast shall not be mocked. Again I say unto ye, embrace the path of the slave, the heathen, and the heretic races, for it is with their own methods and devices that they shall be brought to heel (and correspondingly, to hell). For the inferior races contain within themselves the seeds of their own destruction.

So shall it be written. So shall it be done.


Pfft... sell out. You just want to protect the "hell"-cat for "your" own ends, leaving us stuck with a null-coaster, rather than see Amarr gain a useful and worthwhile ship for everyone that brings balance to the empire ship options, ends the argument, and leaves mostly satisfied capsuleers all around.


Uh, you misunderstand him greatly. He is suggesting we abandon the Amarr battleship lineup entirely to show them that it's not a good change. A strike of sorts.

But since they don't really rebalance things based on what's used and what isn't, (or a few things would have been done differently, that's for sure), I don't see this as likely to succeed.


I get that actually. Some of the banter is meant tongue in cheek (yes, I really want a better Abaddon and was fighting for it, using the post to my own ends, regardless of truth LOL. Please forgive me that, perhaps a crime of love and politics.) But you also express one of my worries. People giving up on Amarr battleships (and their other ships) because they have been designed out of too many roles leaving everyone else to do everything better for less investment. Talk about killing some rookie's play enthusiasm after skilling for months only to find no one wants their boats along for the show and they are not competitive. How to get new Amarr FW pilots and those that actually fly Amarr? Once people give up on a ship line it will take years to recover any momentum on several fronts. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2427 - 2013-05-05 20:38:31 UTC
Quote:
I get that actually. Some of the banter is meant tongue in cheek (yes, I really want a better Abaddon and was fighting for it, using the post to my own ends, regardless of truth LOL. Please forgive me that, perhaps a crime of love and politics.) But you also express one of my worries. People giving up on Amarr battleships (and their other ships) because they have been designed out of too many roles leaving everyone else to do everything better for less investment. Talk about killing some rookie's play enthusiasm after skilling for months only to find no one wants their boats along for the show and they are not competitive. How to get new Amarr FW pilots and those that actually fly Amarr? Once people give up on a ship line it will take years to recover any momentum on several fronts. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.


Wait, people fly things above cruiser size in FW for things besides the final system bash? O-o I've been gone too long in that case. Also, for whatever reason, the Amarr side of FW is... to put it nicely, abominable. But everything is what you make of it, I suppose.

Like I said, you have little worry of this happening. The hardcore Amarr pilots will do what they always do; kick ass with the ships that still work.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2428 - 2013-05-05 20:42:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I get that actually. Some of the banter is meant tongue in cheek (yes, I really want a better Abaddon and was fighting for it, using the post to my own ends, regardless of truth LOL. Please forgive me that, perhaps a crime of love and politics.) But you also express one of my worries. People giving up on Amarr battleships (and their other ships) because they have been designed out of too many roles leaving everyone else to do everything better for less investment. Talk about killing some rookie's play enthusiasm after skilling for months only to find no one wants their boats along for the show and they are not competitive. How to get new Amarr FW pilots and those that actually fly Amarr? Once people give up on a ship line it will take years to recover any momentum on several fronts. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.


Wait, people fly things above cruiser size in FW for things besides the final system bash? O-o I've been gone too long in that case. Also, for whatever reason, the Amarr side of FW is... to put it nicely, abominable. But everything is what you make of it, I suppose.

Like I said, you have little worry of this happening. The hardcore Amarr pilots will do what they always do; kick ass with the ships that still work.


so they wont be kicking ass at all above cruiser level unless they can kil their opponent in the first 30 seconds of the figth or before they warp? since their mids will be filled with cap batteries to comepnsate for the nonexistent cap and laser cap bonuses, and if you fit tackle, your going to have a hard time keeping your guns up.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2429 - 2013-05-05 20:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
In fact, I see more amarr and minmatar BS in FW than gallente BS outside of undock. Not that my point of view is relevant, but still.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2430 - 2013-05-05 21:05:40 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
In fact, I see more amarr and minmatar BS in FW than gallente BS outside of undock. Not that my point of view is relevant, but still.


No, no it's not relevant.

Amarr BS in FW exist to station bash. That is what they are for. Literally never seen one aside from that, cruiser and/or frigate gangs serve much better.
Quote:

so they wont be kicking ass at all above cruiser level unless they can kil their opponent in the first 30 seconds of the figth or before they warp? since their mids will be filled with cap batteries to comepnsate for the nonexistent cap and laser cap bonuses, and if you fit tackle, your going to have a hard time keeping your guns up.


Not disagreeing with you, but it's not specifically that bad. My statement was more of a testament to the stubborn spirit of the Amarr player. Much like the props I give to the Caldari players as well, hanging onto their ships despite awful design changes, and in the case of the Caldari, hideous ship models.


"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
dagley
Veyr
The Veyr Collective
#2431 - 2013-05-05 22:23:24 UTC
More to the point the geddon has had its current role since the start of the game so why change it now?? Just change the domi to a vamp/neut tier 1 bs with good drone capabilities. if you want a geddon with vamp/neut now just get a bhaal???

Plus the apoc needs more of a boost to rival the new tier 3 battlecruisers as the oracle can fit 8 tachs the apoc can't without powergrid mods. Plus does less DPS and less range so what's the point for more isk?

Abaddon is fine as it is people should stop whining as it handles like a bathtub of water in an ocean of glue.

Pro tip to CCP: If it isn't broke don't fix it!!!

Or if it is broke actually fix it properly!
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2432 - 2013-05-05 22:48:02 UTC
dagley wrote:
More to the point the geddon has had its current role since the start of the game so why change it now?? Just change the domi to a vamp/neut tier 1 bs with good drone capabilities. if you want a geddon with vamp/neut now just get a bhaal???

Plus the apoc needs more of a boost to rival the new tier 3 battlecruisers as the oracle can fit 8 tachs the apoc can't without powergrid mods. Plus does less DPS and less range so what's the point for more isk?

Abaddon is fine as it is people should stop whining as it handles like a bathtub of water in an ocean of glue.

Pro tip to CCP: If it isn't broke don't fix it!!!

Or if it is broke actually fix it properly!
+10

Kinda fascinating how that is working out...

Maybe the CCP guys like flying Minmatar. Hate Caldari and Amarr. And decided to help their in-game personal-account allies the gallente. Seems like a conflict of interest to me. Also raises the question of their professionalism.

SInce it is finals weeks for many people, CCP here are your grades over the last year:

Retribution Expansion
85% or 'B'

(Reason, didn't like the HML nerf when a change of missile mechanics would be common sense first step)

Retribution Devs
90% or 'A'

Odyssey Expansion
50% or 'F'

(Reason, ship 'reblancing' is bullshit. Winmatar and Gallente are buffed. Amarr and Caldari are shafted to put it gently. UI changes and stargate-cinematic are good. Again missile changes avoid the glaring issue that you seem to be ignoring in a biased manner)

Odyssey Devs
15% or 'F'

Reason: The only points being awarded are for UI and stargate-cinematic changes.

Any of my fellow Eve Players disagree with my grading rubric?
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2433 - 2013-05-05 22:52:06 UTC
dagley wrote:
More to the point the geddon has had its current role since the start of the game so why change it now?? Just change the domi to a vamp/neut tier 1 bs with good drone capabilities. if you want a geddon with vamp/neut now just get a bhaal???

Plus the apoc needs more of a boost to rival the new tier 3 battlecruisers as the oracle can fit 8 tachs the apoc can't without powergrid mods. Plus does less DPS and less range so what's the point for more isk?

Abaddon is fine as it is people should stop whining as it handles like a bathtub of water in an ocean of glue.

Pro tip to CCP: If it isn't broke don't fix it!!!

Or if it is broke actually fix it properly!

they wont change the domi, because they want the AMARR to have the vamp/neut/missile+lasers/drone boat.

and ya know what? if this was debated for a few months prior, and the community came to a concensus it was ok, i woudlnt eb mad.

what im amd about was that pre-CCP Rise, they ahd stated that amarr BS were fine, that they werent going to do anything other than minor quality-of-life changes to the amarr lineup for odyssey,a dnt hat if they felt the need fro a disruption battleship, it would be amde into a 4th hull, that was in a DEV BLOG. not even a month and a half later, CCP Rise decides he doesnt like the geddon.
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2434 - 2013-05-05 23:34:15 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Wait, people fly things above cruiser size in FW for things besides the final system bash? O-o I've been gone too long in that case. Also, for whatever reason, the Amarr side of FW is... to put it nicely, abominable. But everything is what you make of it, I suppose. Like I said, you have little worry of this happening. The hardcore Amarr pilots will do what they always do; kick ass with the ships that still work.


I wasn't looking to imply people were flying battleships in FW. I was trying to make a point about graduation. Why even start out as Amarr or think about taking their side when you will end up with sucky ships at the top end after months of training when you want to do other things too like run L4 for better income to support yourself...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2435 - 2013-05-06 00:08:03 UTC
Tank Talbot wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Wait, people fly things above cruiser size in FW for things besides the final system bash? O-o I've been gone too long in that case. Also, for whatever reason, the Amarr side of FW is... to put it nicely, abominable. But everything is what you make of it, I suppose. Like I said, you have little worry of this happening. The hardcore Amarr pilots will do what they always do; kick ass with the ships that still work.


I wasn't looking to imply people were flying battleships in FW. I was trying to make a point about graduation. Why even start out as Amarr or think about taking their side when you will end up with sucky ships at the top end after months of training when you want to do other things too like run L4 for better income to support yourself...


Why, indeed...

If I recall, some time ago one of the Dev blogs on WoW (yes, I know I said That-Which-Shall-Not-Be-Named, but bear with me here), was that above all else, they wanted to avoid people feeling like they "lost the game at the character creation screen".

Granted, you can cross train in this game, but the point still stands.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2436 - 2013-05-06 00:38:09 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tank Talbot wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Wait, people fly things above cruiser size in FW for things besides the final system bash? O-o I've been gone too long in that case. Also, for whatever reason, the Amarr side of FW is... to put it nicely, abominable. But everything is what you make of it, I suppose. Like I said, you have little worry of this happening. The hardcore Amarr pilots will do what they always do; kick ass with the ships that still work.


I wasn't looking to imply people were flying battleships in FW. I was trying to make a point about graduation. Why even start out as Amarr or think about taking their side when you will end up with sucky ships at the top end after months of training when you want to do other things too like run L4 for better income to support yourself...


Why, indeed...

If I recall, some time ago one of the Dev blogs on WoW (yes, I know I said That-Which-Shall-Not-Be-Named, but bear with me here), was that above all else, they wanted to avoid people feeling like they "lost the game at the character creation screen".

Granted, you can cross train in this game, but the point still stands.


Hopefully they'll pay more attention to whatever thread Sisi feedback will be done on once the changes are up there.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2437 - 2013-05-06 04:22:22 UTC
Tank Talbot wrote:
But you also express one of my worries. People giving up on Amarr battleships (and their other ships) because they have been designed out of too many roles leaving everyone else to do everything better for less investment. Talk about killing some rookie's play enthusiasm after skilling for months only to find no one wants their boats along for the show and they are not competitive. How to get new Amarr FW pilots and those that actually fly Amarr? Once people give up on a ship line it will take years to recover any momentum on several fronts. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.


The Devs have long expressed that they don't care what all is wrong with the Abaddon so long as it continues in their preferred place for it in blob fleets. Sad, but true.

They have even expressed that they really don't care how bad it and other ships are to begin with for PvE, and that these changes only make them worse, because in their opinion such pilots should just go and train for easier ships for it instead. (yea, great message to send out for those that like me started out PvE heavy and only gradually get into PvP "your ship sucks, get over it and train for something else.")

I even tried getting ahold of our upcoming CSM 8 whom we elected into office, and was basically told "The Abaddon's issues are to small of an issue for us to waste our time on." So much for the Devs telling us to contact them about problems.
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2438 - 2013-05-06 07:36:09 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Tank Talbot wrote:
But you also express one of my worries. People giving up on Amarr battleships (and their other ships) because they have been designed out of too many roles leaving everyone else to do everything better for less investment. Talk about killing some rookie's play enthusiasm after skilling for months only to find no one wants their boats along for the show and they are not competitive. How to get new Amarr FW pilots and those that actually fly Amarr? Once people give up on a ship line it will take years to recover any momentum on several fronts. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.


The Devs have long expressed that they don't care what all is wrong with the Abaddon so long as it continues in their preferred place for it in blob fleets. Sad, but true.

They have even expressed that they really don't care how bad it and other ships are to begin with for PvE, and that these changes only make them worse, because in their opinion such pilots should just go and train for easier ships for it instead. (yea, great message to send out for those that like me started out PvE heavy and only gradually get into PvP "your ship sucks, get over it and train for something else.")

I even tried getting ahold of our upcoming CSM 8 whom we elected into office, and was basically told "The Abaddon's issues are to small of an issue for us to waste our time on." So much for the Devs telling us to contact them about problems.


Every true Amarr patriot carries a “token of submission” to the empress into rookie training. It is a thing we carry with honor placing the needs of the empire above our own. Do you still have yours? You see, sometimes we all need a reminder of what is important and who comes first. So, when it comes to CCP Rise, I am simply looking for the right and proper stick to beat him into submission with but I am struggling to find just the spot to swing for...

I don’t know how to bring their agenda into line with player desires expressed in thread yet for all ships. With tweaks there are opportunities for the Abaddon from better PVE performance to opening small gangs opportunities without making it OP or reducing the viability for the hellcat doctrines either. It should be noted that for the typical rookie, PVE provides the ISK for PVP and if you can’t get it you can’t do it so it shouldn’t be disrespected so much.

The CSM is beholden to other interests with their own issues that will be pushed to the forefront which in some cases run contrary to our own due to the rivalries and economics of null. It is not a platform of choice for the general player and they are going to have their hands full after Odyssey. I can’t see them as a reasonable ally here nor even invested in the issue with so much else coming to their plate.
John 1135
#2439 - 2013-05-06 08:59:04 UTC  |  Edited by: John 1135
Tank Talbot wrote:
...after skilling for months only to find no one wants their boats along for the show and they are not competitive. How to get new Amarr FW pilots and those that actually fly Amarr? Once people give up on a ship line it will take years to recover any momentum on several fronts. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Unfortunately that reflects an Amarr pilot experience of late. Often now when a pilot asks 'Shall I bring armour-tanked-Amarr-boat X?' They're told 'No, learn to fly a Y.' Or even where the answer is 'Yes' it's often subtexted '...but non-Amarr-boat-Z is better for that, of course'. That applies doubly to Amarr battleships.

So how does the Amarr line-up look? In what real-Eve roles will an Amarr ship be a preferred ship?

NApoc in armour-DPS fleets and Incursions?
Zealot in AHAC gangs and fleets.
Guardian for armour-logi.
Revelation for grinding sov (edited, ty Beaver)
Oracle in... sniper fleets?
Devoter HIC in armour fleets (edited, ty Beaver)

Tolerable ships might include

Augoror armour-logi
Bhaalgorn cap-war
Curse cap-war?
Arbitrator e-war?
Pilgrim solo-roam?
A few Amarr industrials - perhaps the Providence?

Out of favour might include

Everything else?! I mean, Abaddon is fast falling from favour, and the resists nerf will seal that I guess. We're moving into an age where no Amarr battleship will be preferred in role. Or is it that Amarr just are not supposed to fly Battleships? You see, I find that really odd because to me huge tanky ships epitomise the feeling of the Amarr race.
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#2440 - 2013-05-06 09:10:03 UTC
John 1135 wrote:
Tank Talbot wrote:
...after skilling for months only to find no one wants their boats along for the show and they are not competitive. How to get new Amarr FW pilots and those that actually fly Amarr? Once people give up on a ship line it will take years to recover any momentum on several fronts. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Unfortunately that reflects an Amarr pilot experience of late. Often now when a pilot asks 'Shall I bring armour-tanked-Amarr-boat X?' They're told 'No, learn to fly a Y.' Or even where the answer is 'Yes' it's often subtexted '...but non-Amarr-boat-Z is better for that, of course'. That applies doubly to Amarr battleships.

So how does the Amarr line-up look? In what real-Eve roles will an Amarr ship be a preferred ship?

NApoc in armour-DPS fleets and Incursions?
Zealot in AHAC gangs and fleets.
Guardian for armour-logi.
Revenant for grinding sov.
Oracle in... sniper fleets?

Tolerable ships might include

Devoter HIC
Augoror armour-logi
Bhaalgorn cap-war
Curse cap-war?
Arbitrator e-war?
Pilgrim solo-roam?
A few Amarr industrials - perhaps the Providence?

Out of favour might include

Everything else?! I mean, Abaddon is fast falling from favour, and the resists nerf will seal that I guess. We're moving into an age where no Amarr battleship will be preferred in role. Or is it that Amarr just are not supposed to fly Battleships? You see, I find that really odd because to me huge tanky ships epitomise the feeling of the Amarr race.

You seem to not know the difference between the Revelation and the Revenant.

The Devoter is the best, and preferred HIC for armor fleets everywhere. Curses and Bhaals are pretty much the only options for cap warfare beyond getting 200 dual neut Tempests or Cyclones.