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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2221 - 2013-05-01 03:24:50 UTC
If all the Battleships are on the same tier, they'll probably all use the same amount of resources- and it's a guess, but they'll probably be closer cost wise to the former tier 3s than the current Armageddon.

CCP Rise wrote:
To anyone who is very sad to see the old Armageddon go, I encourage to you consider that if left the same, it would have been even more crowded by the Abaddon as a result of the price adjustment than it already was.


It's more of a feeling than anything, but I think the price will be very close to the current Abaddon price, maybe less. Is it worth paying 2x a curse for a ship with more tank, less neuting bonus, and less maneuverable? Or, if you're emphasis is drones, why not just fly the Domi?

I'd rather see the Geddon get a second drone bonus, like the Domi, or actually be a big brother to the prophecy. Or hell, make another E-war boat. But neuts feel strange in this set up. Just cause it looks like a Baahlgorn doesn't mean it is one.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2222 - 2013-05-01 03:30:33 UTC
If it had a longer Neut range that would be enough. Slap a couple of TD's, 4 long range Neuts (Like, 20% rather than 10%) and some Cruises or something onto it. And you have a stand off Ewar ship with a bit of DPS to take down something. It's not a god Ewar ship, but it's certainly a strong fleet ship at that point. As it is, the Neut range is inside brawler range. Where it won't have the tank to survive once you fit the neuts.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2223 - 2013-05-01 03:40:21 UTC
As-is it's set up as a combat battleship not an E-War. With 4 mids, fitting neuts AND tracking disruptors will get interesting. And, to be fair, the general premise behind the Armageddon right now seems to be it only fights things inside that 37.8km range. Most ships struggle to deal damage capped out, except for Projectiles.

CCP Rise isn't approaching the Armageddon as an E-war, it's a combat. Or at least that's how he labeled it.
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2224 - 2013-05-01 06:41:57 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:
The curse can only fit 5, but has a 100% increase at level V recon ships. Look at The CandyGirl's post above, her math is right.

The Armageddon feels awfully specialized for being a tech I ship, if it's gonna have drones, I feel it shouldn't be encouraged to fit neuts- that'll happen regardless of what bonuses you slap onto it. Neuts are powerful by themselves already.

Yea, 5 is what I meant, typo fail :).
I kinda like the neut bonus, it is an Amarr thing, and it is a very general boat that can fit any weapons it wants currently, (Though anyone fitting cap using guns to it.... And it doesn't have the PG to think about fitting LR Guns except rails) but I can see it is an underwhelming bonus with that Analysis.
I would note the Curse currently costs more than the Geddon, Geddon is going at around 100 Mil, but that will jump with the extra materials. And cost is meant to be only a tiny balance factor anyway.




i thought prices for BS's would be DROPPING

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#2225 - 2013-05-01 06:43:53 UTC
Calathorn Virpio wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:
The curse can only fit 5, but has a 100% increase at level V recon ships. Look at The CandyGirl's post above, her math is right.

The Armageddon feels awfully specialized for being a tech I ship, if it's gonna have drones, I feel it shouldn't be encouraged to fit neuts- that'll happen regardless of what bonuses you slap onto it. Neuts are powerful by themselves already.

Yea, 5 is what I meant, typo fail :).
I kinda like the neut bonus, it is an Amarr thing, and it is a very general boat that can fit any weapons it wants currently, (Though anyone fitting cap using guns to it.... And it doesn't have the PG to think about fitting LR Guns except rails) but I can see it is an underwhelming bonus with that Analysis.
I would note the Curse currently costs more than the Geddon, Geddon is going at around 100 Mil, but that will jump with the extra materials. And cost is meant to be only a tiny balance factor anyway.




i thought prices for BS's would be DROPPING

Tier 3's will probably drop, and they'll all probably normalize at somewhere around 150-200m per hull. They definitely won't bring BS cost down to tier 1 level.

However if they decide to prove me wrong, I won't be upset.
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2226 - 2013-05-01 07:02:21 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Calathorn Virpio wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:
The curse can only fit 5, but has a 100% increase at level V recon ships. Look at The CandyGirl's post above, her math is right.

The Armageddon feels awfully specialized for being a tech I ship, if it's gonna have drones, I feel it shouldn't be encouraged to fit neuts- that'll happen regardless of what bonuses you slap onto it. Neuts are powerful by themselves already.

Yea, 5 is what I meant, typo fail :).
I kinda like the neut bonus, it is an Amarr thing, and it is a very general boat that can fit any weapons it wants currently, (Though anyone fitting cap using guns to it.... And it doesn't have the PG to think about fitting LR Guns except rails) but I can see it is an underwhelming bonus with that Analysis.
I would note the Curse currently costs more than the Geddon, Geddon is going at around 100 Mil, but that will jump with the extra materials. And cost is meant to be only a tiny balance factor anyway.




i thought prices for BS's would be DROPPING

Tier 3's will probably drop, and they'll all probably normalize at somewhere around 150-200m per hull. They definitely won't bring BS cost down to tier 1 level.

However if they decide to prove me wrong, I won't be upset.



10% more then T1 or LESS then T2 would be nice

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#2227 - 2013-05-01 07:09:17 UTC
Calathorn Virpio wrote:

10% more then T1 or LESS then T2 would be nice

It would indeed be nice, though I doubt they'll go that low. I think ~125-150m would be a decent level, at about a little over double the price of the next step down (an attack BC).
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2228 - 2013-05-01 08:21:14 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Calathorn Virpio wrote:

10% more then T1 or LESS then T2 would be nice

It would indeed be nice, though I doubt they'll go that low. I think ~125-150m would be a decent level, at about a little over double the price of the next step down (an attack BC).



seeing as i just compared the geddon and apoc prices, 120 mill sounds just right for hitting a perfect middle ground

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#2229 - 2013-05-01 10:46:33 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Come on, you don't do your argument any favors when you say 425's have more CPU than any other weapon....by a measly 6 CPU versus Cruise Launcher or less than 10% (only 9 more than Tach's). While Tach's require near DOUBLE more PG than 425's at 4125 versus 2310 for 425's. Remember Tach's use TRIPLE the cap as 425's as well.

Nobody is saying Beams shouldn't cost more cap or more PG, but there is a football field of difference between mega-beams/tach's and the other weapons when it comes to PG and Cap and we're just asking for this difference to be lowered so that these weapons actually get used by something other than a Nightmare since it is the only one that can actually fit them without gimping their fit beyond belief that they might as well use Scorch and save the tears.

If Tach's were as OP as you claim we would see them used more...or at all especially in fleet environments where cap isn't as much an issue and you wouldn't see Amarr ships fitting Scorch nearly 100% of the time (only taking a break to fit Arties).

Let's make comparison fair, shall we? What is these 6 CPU make in percentage of CPU available on battleship?


Base only (AFAIK)

CPU (#turret)
Abaddon (8) 560
Apocalypse (8) current 505, post patch 540
Rokh 780 (8)
Hyperion (8 current, 6 post patch) 600
Megathron (7) current 550, post patch 570

CPU Tachyon Beam LaserII
63

CPU 425mm Railgun II
77

Full rack
Abaddon 504
Apocalypse 504
Rokh 616
Hyperion 462
Megathron 539

Percentage value of CPU used for full rack based on all base numbers only
Abaddon 90.00%
Apocalypse 93.33%
Rokh 78.97%
Hyperion 77.00%
Megathron 94.56%

I think this is right. Late is the hour.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2230 - 2013-05-01 11:50:06 UTC
Ya Beam lasers are useless weight on this client unless for the meta IV tachs on a ratting oracle.

Mainly because Scorch is strong. So why can't you be happy that scorch is good enough to obsolete beams almost completely, instead of whining that beams don't have a role.

Also, comparison of modules without taking the potential application of the complete fitted ship into account is just weak.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2231 - 2013-05-01 13:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Ya Beam lasers are useless weight on this client unless for the meta IV tachs on a ratting oracle.

Mainly because Scorch is strong. So why can't you be happy that scorch is good enough to obsolete beams almost completely, instead of whining that beams don't have a role.

Also, comparison of modules without taking the potential application of the complete fitted ship into account is just weak.


Because one out of four races having one turret type and ammo being viable is a great design right? So is having the large long range weapons only being fittable on the T3 BC and pirate ship while actual Amarr BS's fit Arties instead.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2232 - 2013-05-01 13:18:35 UTC
Super spikinator wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Come on, you don't do your argument any favors when you say 425's have more CPU than any other weapon....by a measly 6 CPU versus Cruise Launcher or less than 10% (only 9 more than Tach's). While Tach's require near DOUBLE more PG than 425's at 4125 versus 2310 for 425's. Remember Tach's use TRIPLE the cap as 425's as well.

Nobody is saying Beams shouldn't cost more cap or more PG, but there is a football field of difference between mega-beams/tach's and the other weapons when it comes to PG and Cap and we're just asking for this difference to be lowered so that these weapons actually get used by something other than a Nightmare since it is the only one that can actually fit them without gimping their fit beyond belief that they might as well use Scorch and save the tears.

If Tach's were as OP as you claim we would see them used more...or at all especially in fleet environments where cap isn't as much an issue and you wouldn't see Amarr ships fitting Scorch nearly 100% of the time (only taking a break to fit Arties).

Let's make comparison fair, shall we? What is these 6 CPU make in percentage of CPU available on battleship?


Base only (AFAIK)

CPU (#turret)
Abaddon (8) 560
Apocalypse (8) current 505, post patch 540
Rokh 780 (8)
Hyperion (8 current, 6 post patch) 600
Megathron (7) current 550, post patch 570

CPU Tachyon Beam LaserII
63

CPU 425mm Railgun II
77

Full rack
Abaddon 504
Apocalypse 504
Rokh 616
Hyperion 462
Megathron 539

Percentage value of CPU used for full rack based on all base numbers only
Abaddon 90.00%
Apocalypse 93.33%
Rokh 78.97%
Hyperion 77.00%
Megathron 94.56%

I think this is right. Late is the hour.


I'm getting 425 Railgun II's requiring 74 CPU in-game, but great work none the less. I need a good cry, care to post the PG comparison or shall I?
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2233 - 2013-05-01 14:48:13 UTC
Do keep in mind, that Rokh using CPU-expensive shield tank. And current PG/CPU numbers are ought to change.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
The CandyGirl
Candy's Toy Shop
#2234 - 2013-05-01 16:32:19 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


Anyway, on the BS changes. Nice Curse/Geddon analysis. Can the Geddon sensibly fit 7 Heavy Neuts, I heard that questioned.


No. Current Neuts are 2000 powergrid for a meta 4, 2250 for a meta 5.

Then if the Curse can sensibly fit 7 mediums, that needs addressing



Curse can only fit 5 the math I did was based on my current curse fit which is 5 meta 4 (which are same range same nueting power as t2) I think t2 have lower cap use.

But anyway the curse is going to be a better ship for the role because of it speed.

Being a smartass is always better than being a dumbass!
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#2235 - 2013-05-01 17:44:55 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Do keep in mind, that Rokh using CPU-expensive shield tank. And current PG/CPU numbers are ought to change.


Please note the data I provided previously is base numbers. This did not account for any changes in CPU or Powergrid from skills or implants. If I was to give the Rokh the All Vs treatment She would have 531 CPU and 2118MW grid remaining. If I did the same for the Abaddon or the Apoc Using their equivalent - Tachyon IIs, they end up with 322 CPU with -3450 MW and 253 CPU and -4075 MW respectively. Please note in this case I am using current numbers which do not take into account that Tachyons are getting no buffs post patch and the Apoc is getting 35 CPU.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2236 - 2013-05-01 18:25:37 UTC
Missed that part.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Pathogen Ascention
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2237 - 2013-05-01 18:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Pathogen Ascention
At this point I'm waiting for them to tell us that all Amarr ships are getting screen doors so we can enjoy the space-breeze.

I don't care that this post isn't constructive, specifically because we were told to "suck it up, tough ****, prepare your anus." Yes, that's how I interpreted it.

EDIT:

I thought of something constructive: While it's impossible to make the community 100% pleased with any change, having more discussion/feedback between Devs and the community is helpful, provided it's worthwhile discussions and feedback and not one line blurbs and vagaries.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#2238 - 2013-05-01 19:13:40 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Thank you for your work CCP Rise!
May I know what do you think of the 6 turret + 7.5/level damage plan, for Abaddon or Apoc?


I think the problem with it is that the Abaddon is strong enough already (as proven on TQ) that giving it extra turrets right now would be difficult to justify, and the Apoc doesn't have a damage bonus to use - so doing this for the Apoc would mean reworking it completely around a new damage bonus.



I think one less turret is the right way to go. It will help its cap, make heretical 1400 arty fits go away (probably) and give Amarr gunships so much needed utility high slot for some spider tanking pve action.

The ship was in solid balance (almost perfect in my opinion) but seeing as other races have no fitting troubles or capacitor troubles of this magnitude some Amarr love is needed. Also this resistance nerf is hurting it a lot and some armor hp buff is in order.

And rework Armageddons art if you insist so much on turning it in a drone boat since it looks nothing like one. Its a slim tube connecting engine and cockpit. Its just silly.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2239 - 2013-05-01 19:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Thank you for your work CCP Rise!
May I know what do you think of the 6 turret + 7.5/level damage plan, for Abaddon or Apoc?


I think the problem with it is that the Abaddon is strong enough already (as proven on TQ) that giving it extra turrets right now would be difficult to justify, and the Apoc doesn't have a damage bonus to use - so doing this for the Apoc would mean reworking it completely around a new damage bonus.



I think one less turret is the right way to go. It will help its cap, make heretical 1400 arty fits go away (probably) and give Amarr gunships so much needed utility high slot for some spider tanking pve action.

The ship was in solid balance (almost perfect in my opinion) but seeing as other races have no fitting troubles or capacitor troubles of this magnitude some Amarr love is needed. Also this resistance nerf is hurting it a lot and some armor hp buff is in order.

And rework Armageddons art if you insist so much on turning it in a drone boat since it looks nothing like one. Its a slim tube connecting engine and cockpit. Its just silly.



I am gonna say that I doubt the "heretical" 1400mm fits will go away. It is one of the only ways to reduce/eliminate the issues that presently plague the ships fitted with beam lasers (due to the imbalance in cap and pwg of such guns). Until those issues are addressed properly by the Dev Team, Amarr battleships will continue to be used with Arty.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2240 - 2013-05-01 20:59:57 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Thank you for your work CCP Rise!
May I know what do you think of the 6 turret + 7.5/level damage plan, for Abaddon or Apoc?


I think the problem with it is that the Abaddon is strong enough already (as proven on TQ) that giving it extra turrets right now would be difficult to justify, and the Apoc doesn't have a damage bonus to use - so doing this for the Apoc would mean reworking it completely around a new damage bonus.



I think one less turret is the right way to go. It will help its cap, make heretical 1400 arty fits go away (probably) and give Amarr gunships so much needed utility high slot for some spider tanking pve action.

The ship was in solid balance (almost perfect in my opinion) but seeing as other races have no fitting troubles or capacitor troubles of this magnitude some Amarr love is needed. Also this resistance nerf is hurting it a lot and some armor hp buff is in order.

And rework Armageddons art if you insist so much on turning it in a drone boat since it looks nothing like one. Its a slim tube connecting engine and cockpit. Its just silly.



The biggest WTF to me is that they did this exact thing for the Gallente after 2 hours of forum complaints, now no more 8 turret BS's except the only 2 laser boats for the one race with huge PG and cap issues and 1 (Rokh) which is a sniper with a much more relaxed fit. Now we have 112+ pages of overwhelmingly negative feedback all pointing in the same direction and there's no meaningful back and forth with CCP over their logic.