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[Odyssey] Module Rebalancing Part One: RSBs and TEs

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Jaangel
BLAMBER
#521 - 2013-03-27 18:47:57 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Serenety Steel wrote:
If it aint broke, DON'T fix it!


Way to nerf some more stuff, well done ccp..


These are broke, so we're fixing them.



Urm no they werent do you play eve?

All you have done is make small gang pvp less effective while having little affect on blob warefare.

Can you please explain your 'Vision' for pvp because as i see there is going to be flying t1 cruisers and there will be no shinney stuff worth flying.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#522 - 2013-03-27 18:49:59 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Roime wrote:
So keeping range in a faster ship is "tricky", and trying to catch them with a slower ship is "simple"?





Ok. People say that its unfair that faster ships should be able to escape because they cannot overcome their speed. I can counter that with. Its completely unfair that ships with more damage should win a fight just because I cannot make more damage then they do!


The simple proposition that there is anything wrong with Kiting is beyond stupid! its just blindness! All and any argument you can make against kiting you can make against brute force combat. Always one side will loose! You need to find a way to counter the advantage of the enemy, that is the whole fun of the damm PVP!


If we cannot have kiting, then we cannot have ships with more damage then others. Also we cannot have ships with more hitpoitn or tank than others. Maybe we should all fly only mining barges!!!


My point was aimed at the fallacy of "kiting requires more skill", when in reality maintaining range is easier than closing range, I'm not saying speed is unfair.

Nerfing damage projection at long point range makes kiting require more actual skill instead of relying purely on speed advantage. It's evident in this thread that it terrifies many ~Elite PVPers~, just like the thought of OGB nerf.



.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#523 - 2013-03-27 18:50:51 UTC
Laser ships are already widely used - from Navy Slicers to Abaddons, from Zealots to Revelations. On the other hand, rare and weak railguns will become even more weaker.
Mord Raven
Phrike Squadron
#524 - 2013-03-27 18:51:22 UTC
Kiters (solo and small gang players most viable option to engage larger groups) want to keep the room for maneuverability they have. Nerfing TEs because they should be more in line with TCs will in turn nerf kiters damage projection which in turn will force them to move closer to their targets. Shield tanking means you have to make compromises in order to increase range and midslots are used for shield mods instead of ewar etc. If instead TCs are buffed the same compromises have to be made by armor tankers. Fit TCs to be able to hit kiters or fit some other mod?

So, why don’t buff TCs instead of nerfing TEs? Kiters will retain their precious maneuverability but will face another counter. Armor tankers are happy because they have another option in engaging kiters. Please don’t nerf solo and small gang play styles..
Weasel Juice
Mayhem and Destruction
#525 - 2013-03-27 18:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Weasel Juice
Quote:
Oracle/Naga/Tornado/Talos shouldn't count in your list because they are the most unbalanced ships in the game. They are faster than t1 cruisers and have ridiculous range, of course they are going to be shield fit.


How does this anything but prove my point - the high damage/instant rep/high agility combination is powerful and armor is the opposite of that all.

Quote:
Rokh is up there because of PL and resistance bonuses.

So what happened to good old Hellcat Abaddons? Why is everyone flying Rokhs these days? Instant reps, better damage application and better agility is the answer.

Quote:
Maelstrom is because of artillery, not because of kiting.

So what's the advantage of artillery? Range dictation and alpha. And the reason people don't fly Arty Abaddons anymore is because they're just too slow and have too much problems actually appyling that damage. TEs

Quote:
Tempest Fleet Issue is actually armour and this is goons fit with TWO TRACKING COMPUTERS. get hazed.

That was my bad. For some reason I was thinking vanilla tempest here.

Quote:
Stabber Fleet Issue is usually armour too, either dual rep fit if you have links or plate and sig tank. If you are fitting shield you'd just get a cynabal because fleet stabber has horrible dps.

The Cynabal is a better version of an SFI either way. Reason why people fly SFI is because it's cheaper and lots of people have stockpiled them from the FW plexing days.

And they are shield fit often. Very often.


The whole point is that shield offers everything you want in one package. Superior damage, superior damage application, superior range dictation, superior agility, superior reps. Even in small scale range dictation is stronger than EW. There just is no trade off. And the TE fix is one more step in addressing this problem.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#526 - 2013-03-27 18:59:36 UTC
Jaangel wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Serenety Steel wrote:
If it aint broke, DON'T fix it!


Way to nerf some more stuff, well done ccp..


These are broke, so we're fixing them.



Urm no they werent do you play eve?

All you have done is make small gang pvp less effective while having little affect on blob warefare.

Can you please explain your 'Vision' for pvp because as i see there is going to be flying t1 cruisers and there will be no shinney stuff worth flying.



My 1.2 billion ISK LOLPLATE LOLBRICK LOLBLASTER LOLBRAWLER is still worth flying, just like it's been worth every 0.01 ISK from the first evening I bought one a year ago Cool










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Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#527 - 2013-03-27 19:00:57 UTC
Thank you for nerfing minies ships :D
Casha Andven
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#528 - 2013-03-27 19:05:43 UTC
Roime wrote:
So keeping range in a faster ship is "tricky", and trying to catch them with a slower ship is "simple"?

Of course a faster ship will have it easier to control range, its called physics. That's why you need to give tankier ships longer range (Scorch). The TE nerf aims to do this, but also impacts negatively all forms of kiting scenarios. (See below)

Being able to engage larger gangs, get kills and not die is not OP?

How can it be OP, being able to do this is achieved by a lot of practice and development of manual piloting skills as well as small gang tactics. That's exactly why the eve-is-easy and kil2 videos are so awesome and so many pilots look to emulating elite pvp corps like Tuskers, Hydra, Verge etc. Did you want to nerf TIger Woods when he was at his best?

Nano kiting blasters ships are not broken by design?
How are they broken? The Talos is an excellent solo/small gang ship.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#529 - 2013-03-27 19:11:19 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:



So tl;dr: kiting is an extremely engaging, tricky, and fun style of gameplay, while brawling is simplistic, deterministic, and frustrating. And your recommendation is that they nerf the fun thing so its not as viable of an option. Because more people should do the annoying, frustrating thing instead?

Ok...


How very dramatic of you.

Its hilarious to watch your posting sperge about how they're removing kiting set ups when thats not even close to whats happening.

Do carry on though.


I do bereave I said "makie it less viable" not "remove it."

Which is exactly what they're doing. But please, continue to call me dramatic.


Its what they have been doing since tiericide started
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#530 - 2013-03-27 19:20:16 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:

Why do both TCs and TEs give twice the bonus to falloff vs. optimal? Why isn't the bonus to optimal equal to the bonus for falloff?

Because falloff effectively is worth half. There was a looong mathemathical proof at the old super thread that generated the addition of falloff bonus into the modules.

I'm familiar with the math, but but doing damage is only 1/2 of combat; avoiding taking damage is equally important.

In-game, using TC/TE modules effectively with projectile weapons means that you can consistently remain outside the range of your opponent's hybrids/lasers, esp. if you are flying Minmatar ships which tend to have a speed advantage. Sure, you are doing less damage, but less damage in extended falloff is still far superior to no damage outside of optimal. No one with a half a brain is going to fight within an opponent's optimal, if it isn't necessary to do so.

Why do you think that projectile-fit, TE-equipped Minmatar ships are so overly popular?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#531 - 2013-03-27 19:23:16 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:

Why do both TCs and TEs give twice the bonus to falloff vs. optimal? Why isn't the bonus to optimal equal to the bonus for falloff?

Because falloff effectively is worth half. There was a looong mathemathical proof at the old super thread that generated the addition of falloff bonus into the modules.

I'm familiar with the math, but but doing damage is only 1/2 of combat; avoiding taking damage is equally important.

In-game, using TC/TE modules effectively with projectile weapons means that you can consistently remain outside the range of your opponent's hybrids/lasers, esp. if you are flying Minmatar ships which tend to have a speed advantage. Sure, you are doing less damage, but less damage in extended falloff is still far superior to no damage outside of optimal. No one with a half a brain is going to fight within an opponent's optimal, if it isn't necessary to do so.

Why do you think that projectile-fit, TE-equipped Minmatar ships are so overly popular?



Minmatar ships can never outrange scorch boats fielding the same number of range modules. In fact the scorch has MASSIVE advantage on most of the realistic envelopes of engagements. Hybrids are meant to be out ranged, thta is what they pay for havign massive damage advantage.

Projectiles are not massively superior on any area, they are popular because they have no severe weakness. They are a middle ground between the other 2 types of turrets.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#532 - 2013-03-27 19:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
This is a pretty big nerf for amarr boats sub BS class. Things like the nano-omen, and the new navy omen will have their usefulness greatly reduced, essentially pushing them further into just fleet armor tankers instead of also having a niche as kiting boats with scorch.

If the intention is to nerf scorch and amarr boats, well mission accomplished. But if your intention was to decrease Minmatar's dominance (as well as things like the blaster talos with null) I suggest keeping the optimal bonus as is, but still reducing the falloff bonus.

This is also a blow to ships like the sniping cormorant (the brawling cormorant was already nerfed with the loss of a midslot, but the sniping corm was able to remain relatively unchanged using tracking enhancers).
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#533 - 2013-03-27 19:36:38 UTC
Ok. Pay attention people. We have people complaining this is a heavy nerf to Amarr, other saying it will kill blasters, others saying it hits minmatar much more massively. Match this to the whining of heavy missile nerf and.... EVERYONE IS COMPLAINING


That pretty much means its balanced! Everyone is equally unhappy!

Congratulations CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#534 - 2013-03-27 19:37:53 UTC
8 TEs bonus a ship less than a single unbonused TD disrupts it.
Greenlock Beta
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#535 - 2013-03-27 19:44:15 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ok. Pay attention people. We have people complaining this is a heavy nerf to Amarr, other saying it will kill blasters, others saying it hits minmatar much more massively. Match this to the whining of heavy missile nerf and.... EVERYONE IS COMPLAINING


That pretty much means its balanced! Everyone is equally unhappy!

Congratulations CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise!

Ahem.
Missiles, those pesky things with no tracking and loooong range.
Not everyone's complaining.
I'm not, not one bit.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#536 - 2013-03-27 19:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelob
Jaangel wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Serenety Steel wrote:
If it aint broke, DON'T fix it!


Way to nerf some more stuff, well done ccp..


These are broke, so we're fixing them.



Urm no they werent do you play eve?

All you have done is make small gang pvp less effective while having little affect on blob warefare.

Can you please explain your 'Vision' for pvp because as i see there is going to be flying t1 cruisers and there will be no shinney stuff worth flying.


Raivi doesn't play eve unless its to tournament test, or orbit+f1.

Incidentally, every small gang pvper, with the notable exception of hit-approach-and-hope-you-win-prometheus-exenthal has pretty well been completely opposed to this nerf. Might be worth considering why that it is.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#537 - 2013-03-27 19:54:03 UTC
Lelob wrote:
Jaangel wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Serenety Steel wrote:
If it aint broke, DON'T fix it!


Way to nerf some more stuff, well done ccp..


These are broke, so we're fixing them.



Urm no they werent do you play eve?

All you have done is make small gang pvp less effective while having little affect on blob warefare.

Can you please explain your 'Vision' for pvp because as i see there is going to be flying t1 cruisers and there will be no shinney stuff worth flying.


Raivi doesn't play eve unless its to tournament test, or orbit+f1.


Also approach, f1, pray in the honorable prom style of pvp
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#538 - 2013-03-27 19:55:51 UTC
Hah, got the edit before your post :P
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#539 - 2013-03-27 19:57:33 UTC
Orbit f1 is different from approach f1. Orbit f1 is stuff like double TD condors, which need a buff because its totally possible to counter TDs.
Turgon Barash
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#540 - 2013-03-27 19:59:59 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
AWESOME!

I'm really suprised it took you that long, though Cool


This.

I remember my jaw dropping when TE's got boosted to the level they're at now and thinking it wouldn't be long until they got nerfed back into balance. That was what, about 4 years back when MINNIE GUNS SUCKED and overnight became Winmatar.

I guess it was long in coming, but better late than never.



So you want minnie guns to suck againe.The whole point of minnie ACs and Artys IS WORKING IN FALLOFF thats what is all about for most minnie ships and in that falloff you already have diminished DPS whith this new nerf dps is just gona be even worse.This will most hurt frig and cruiser ACs and Artys where every km of range counts and where you dont have spare mid for TC most of the time...see wolf