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[Odyssey] Module Rebalancing Part One: RSBs and TEs

First post First post First post
Author
Ben Li
DNS Requiem
Brave Collective
#581 - 2013-03-27 22:55:19 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes)

Quote:


We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.


Quote:
I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.


Quote:
Improving solo options without either killing fun aspects of group play or making solo too easymode is definitely a goal of ours, but the solution there isn't to keep the learning cliff facing support pilots.


Quote:
I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder.
In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face.



Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok"


Fozzie doesn't care about good PVP he just wants CCP to make cash. Which is good I suppose, for CCP.
Lelob
H A V O C
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#582 - 2013-03-27 22:57:29 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes)

Quote:


We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.


Quote:
I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.


Quote:
Improving solo options without either killing fun aspects of group play or making solo too easymode is definitely a goal of ours, but the solution there isn't to keep the learning cliff facing support pilots.


Quote:
I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder.
In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face.



Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok"


I would vote yes to Mr. M. Harari on a CSM ballet.
Shipstorm
I.D.I.O.T.
Sev3rance
#583 - 2013-03-27 23:03:10 UTC
But my blasters D:

If you want me to get closer consider gimme more tracking! Moaaarrr!!!
Kaena Stark
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#584 - 2013-03-27 23:04:23 UTC
Caldari is the most commonly chosen race for players new to eve, if only CCP had some sort of motive for passing a favourable hand over Caldari patch after patch Pirate

Bitter vets will grumble, be bitter, but ultimately log in for their eve fix but nub nubs have little time investment tying them down.

Retention, retention, retention... Pure crack pot speculation of course, but its amusing to entertain, after all did CCP not encourage us to think outside the ever narrowing box Lol
Cage Man
Comms Black
Pandemic Horde
#585 - 2013-03-27 23:07:15 UTC
So the plan is to make TE's less effective but nothing to change the Td'ing of npc. Seems missioning will be limited to missile and drone boats.
Velia Canus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#586 - 2013-03-27 23:07:44 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes)

Quote:


We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.


Quote:
I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.


Quote:
Improving solo options without either killing fun aspects of group play or making solo too easymode is definitely a goal of ours, but the solution there isn't to keep the learning cliff facing support pilots.


Quote:
I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder.
In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face.



Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok"


Run for CSM and you have my vote.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#587 - 2013-03-27 23:20:14 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
So the plan is to make TE's less effective but nothing to change the Td'ing of npc. Seems missioning will be limited to missile and drone boats.


People did missions with turrets way bofre the TE became so powerful. Its a nerf, but minor most of the time

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#588 - 2013-03-27 23:25:55 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Again, keep going strong with the great balance changes, you guys are making EvE a much better game. Players will actually use ships other than the few boring nano/shield ones.

The nano facerollers tears are normal, the some thing happend with the speed nerf a few years ago, the facerollers don't like balance. Just ignore them, they are bias as hell.



People don't use nano ships because they do the most DPS at range. They fly them so they can run away.

Even if they do 50 dps at 20km, they will still be sat at 20km because they are scared to lose their ship.

Nerfing their playstyle and subsequently other people's with misdirected changes like this isn't going to suddenly make them brave. They will be cowards after the TE change. EVE will be the same.

In fact it will just mean a few more people climbing into Talos Nagas Oracles and Tornados.
Lina Halid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#589 - 2013-03-27 23:26:11 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes)

Quote:


We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.


Quote:
I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.


Quote:
Improving solo options without either killing fun aspects of group play or making solo too easymode is definitely a goal of ours, but the solution there isn't to keep the learning cliff facing support pilots.


Quote:
I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder.
In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face.



Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok"


CCP needs more blobs, because they pay more money. That's it.
Kleen Enkook
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#590 - 2013-03-27 23:29:18 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I thought the stabber fit linked about would be an interesting point of reference for the TE changes so I was just fiddling with it a little bit and the results are at the bottom. I think its likely that you will feel this effect (usually between a 5% and 15% Im guessing) at typical engagement ranges for kiting ships like the stabber or the talos - but it seems unlikely that the role of the ship will be compromised to an extent that they would be abandoned. More likely, there will just be some extra room for ships like armor harb or armor brutix to have a role.

The fundamental ability to engage large groups with small ones won't change at all. It may take slightly more time to wear down ships that you isolate, depending on relative ranges, and there may be slightly more flexibility for tackling frigs to be on grid for longer, but overall this change shouldn't shift the meta much.

[Stabber, kiter]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction
50W Infectious Power System Malfunction

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


BARRAGE 6.5% dps drop at 20k
  • 3.51+37.2 with the old TE 187dps@20km
  • 3.23+32 with new TE 175dps@20km

  • RF EMP - 18% dps drop at 20km
  • 1.75+24.8 with old TE 170dps@20km
  • 1.61+21.3 with new TE 140dps@20km



  • sir, what do you expect to kill with this fit. i mean really... what?
    Kleen Enkook
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #591 - 2013-03-27 23:32:58 UTC
    let me rephrase that a bit. why on earth would you fly this instead of a caracal, and especially after the nerf?
    Dez Affinity
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #592 - 2013-03-27 23:35:34 UTC
    Kleen Enkook wrote:
    let me rephrase that a bit. why on earth would you fly this instead of a caracal, and especially after the nerf?


    or a merlin lmao 170 dps not taking into account tracking rofl
    2D34DLY4U
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #593 - 2013-03-27 23:37:28 UTC
    Quote:


    We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.


    Quote:
    I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.


    Quote:
    Improving solo options without either killing fun aspects of group play or making solo too easymode is definitely a goal of ours, but the solution there isn't to keep the learning cliff facing support pilots.


    Quote:
    I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder.
    In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face.


    Nerf something else if you want to fix the Talos or whatever you wanted to achieve when you came up with this TE idea. While you are at it please keep the SFI mass, thank you for the extra shield but no need, the SFI is also fun to use as it has it's own peculiar play style so why nerf it?

    We have a game with many ships and people only fly a small number of them, we should try to be creative and make the less used ships more fun to fly and useful rather than nerfing the ships / play styles that are actually used and flown.

    Please don't be afraid of asymmetries between ships, this is not a Tournament nor it was ever supposed to be balanced, your goal should be to get people to use as many different ships as possible (richer game) but not by creating a balanced competitive environment where everyone flies small variations of the same thing (poorer game).

    Remember EVE PVP is about open world engagements and not an arena, if you make your ship design choices based on conceptualizing engagements on an arena environment you are constraining yourself, if you see engagements as happening on an open world of sandbox opportunities you are broadening your vision and should be able to make creative additions.

    If a ship has some shortcoming versus some other of the same class, I wouldn't worry too much about it, this will be dynamically adjusted as players will incorporate this knowledge in their fleet compositions and engagement choices. What matters is if each ship presents a fun concept to fly with, if the ship "makes sense" by presenting each player with a set of things it can and things it cannot do that resonate with the player and allow him to spend a good time having fun while playing the game.

    I still love you Fozzie, thanks for all the good work and the effort you put into making this game better!
    Veshta Yoshida
    PIE Inc.
    Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
    #594 - 2013-03-27 23:51:24 UTC
    Cage Man wrote:
    So the plan is to make TE's less effective but nothing to change the Td'ing of npc. Seems missioning will be limited to missile and drone boats.

    Already is unless you use a Mach .. Tachyon Paladin has a whopping 5-6km range most of the time in the larger Blood/Sansha rooms, it is so bad that you make better time/ISK running missions against Angels/Serpentis even though most of your damage is sucked up by resists Big smile

    @Fozzie: Are there any talks about revising rigs beyond what was done the armour tanking pass? Was thinking that another 5% on the ambit/locus rigs would go long way towards alleviating some of the concerns people have with the TE rollback revision and offer a tangible alternative to the heaps of other useful rigs.
    Pelea Ming
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #595 - 2013-03-28 00:03:22 UTC
    PinkKnife wrote:
    Beaver Retriever wrote:
    PinkKnife wrote:
    This hurts Minmatar more than Gallente because Gal almost always have the free mids to run a Tracking Computer, thus your Talos and Megathron will be fine assuming you aren't shield tanking them.

    It's a nerf to shield ships with free lows, I.e. Canes, and it is ENTIRELY needed. Oh no Projectiles won't dominate in every single possible way anymore, they only get to still pick damage type, use no cap, and have the highest alpha of any turret. Yes, poor Projectiles.

    The Blaster boats won't suffer, and the Minmatar's ability to kite at any distance and still be able to hit fully will be nerfed. It is about time. Thank you Fozzie.

    The userbase can deal with flying ships with risk. Currently the same userbase flies almost exclusive caldari/minmatar because you can kite out, apply all your dps, and risk nothing in the engagement. See Drake, See Hurricane for further examples.

    Literally no one armor tanks their Talos.



    Which exactly proves my point, the reason being you HAVE to shield tank everything these days, and the current TE exacerbate this problem. You shouldn't get to have all of your tank, plus all of your gank. Trade offs and decisions, considerations, and drawbacks.

    The problem that you HAVE to shield tank a Talos, proves the issue. You have to be able to keep up/kite otherwise you lose, as Canes and other ships can apply their dps well within/outside scram range and there isn't **** you can do about it if you are slower than they are.

    It is a side buff to armor ships, and it is fantastic.

    If you're shield tanking your armor ships, you're gonna have a bad time. Well you should anyway.

    I don't know, I've had alot of fun with shield tanked armor ships in the right fleets before :P
    Lex Arson
    Adversity.
    Psychotic Tendencies.
    #596 - 2013-03-28 00:27:03 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes)

    Quote:


    We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.


    Quote:
    I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.


    Quote:
    Improving solo options without either killing fun aspects of group play or making solo too easymode is definitely a goal of ours, but the solution there isn't to keep the learning cliff facing support pilots.


    Quote:
    I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder.
    In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face.



    Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok"

    QFT

    There's no use crying after every mistake, you just keep on trying 'til you run out of cake.

    Gorski Car
    #597 - 2013-03-28 01:13:30 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes)

    Quote:


    We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.


    Quote:
    I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.


    Quote:
    Improving solo options without either killing fun aspects of group play or making solo too easymode is definitely a goal of ours, but the solution there isn't to keep the learning cliff facing support pilots.


    Quote:
    I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder.
    In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face.



    Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok"

    Collect this post

    ECM Buddah
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #598 - 2013-03-28 01:14:58 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes)

    Quote:


    We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.


    Quote:
    I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.


    Quote:
    Improving solo options without either killing fun aspects of group play or making solo too easymode is definitely a goal of ours, but the solution there isn't to keep the learning cliff facing support pilots.


    Quote:
    I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder.
    In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face.



    Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok"

    D Nightklirik
    Dark Forge Enterprise
    #599 - 2013-03-28 01:15:24 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes)

    Quote:


    We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.


    Quote:
    I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.


    Quote:
    Improving solo options without either killing fun aspects of group play or making solo too easymode is definitely a goal of ours, but the solution there isn't to keep the learning cliff facing support pilots.


    Quote:
    I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder.
    In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face.



    Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok"

    ISD Flidais Asagiri
    ISD Community Communications Liaisons
    #600 - 2013-03-28 01:19:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Flidais Asagiri
    Greetings

    This is an awesome discussion and want it to keep going, so this is the friendly reminder to keep it on topic and try and resist "quoting" everyone and their brother in one post as it does break the forum rules. Press on with the debate!

    On On

    ISD Flidais Asagiri Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department