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AFK Cloaking Collection Thread

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TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#1681 - 2013-09-23 12:27:27 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
You have said multiple times throughout this topic that AFK cloaked players are a legitimate risk that you must respond to. Forgive me if I don't trawl backwards through pages to find quotes. Luckily, I do not have to - the post I quoted was heavy with that very implication. You said you are fine with the risk presented if the player is ACTIVE, but wish that the AFK players were removed.

But then you state removing them would not reduce risk.

These two things directly contradict each other.
No, They give the APPEARANCE OF RISK. I've said it like a hundred times. If you can't read, that's YOUR problem.
Any APPEARANCE OF RISK, must be reacted to in the same way. Thus while an AFK cloaker has no risk, he must be reacted to the same as an active cloaker.
And I'm sure we've covered this last time you got bored and decided to go out trolling.


My mistake, you only want the "appearance of risk" to removed, such that the only thing that remains is real, unarguable risk. Surely you understand, however, that removing such uncertainties is in and of itself a reduction of risk. Rather than having an uncertain situation, you have a certain one. That is a reduction of risk, as there is no possible chance that your interpretation, or your actions, could be wrong.

Thanks for clearing it up.
JIeoH Mocc
brotherhood of desman
#1682 - 2013-09-23 12:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: JIeoH Mocc
Azrael Dinn wrote:
JIeoH Mocc wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
JIeoH Mocc wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:

Why cannot I find the cloaked ship even if I wanted to?

Because it's cloaked, duh. Pretty much ths same as I'd ask why can't I shoot some carebear who's under the POS field, i mean we've already agreed that he has 99% certainty to make it there in good health.


Now see you have a problem in your logic. You can kill the carebear underneath the pos shields. You just need to kill the tower first or bum him out from there. And if that wont give you more pvp then what will?


Sophism.
Set a a bait for the cloaky, and kill him. That's pretty much the same reasoning, eh.


It is not. If the cloaked up person does not want to engage me or someone else he will stay hidden as long as he wants and I still cannot not do anything to find, or to stop him or anything else, while if someone is behind the pos shields you can just start shooting the tower and eventualy the shields are gone.


You haven't killed a POS ever, did you? Kindly proceed to read (if not do) how these things work in EvE.

*I see now that you did, so i must assume you're pursuing the ways of sophistics in lame trolling, or you were told to press F1 and you did JUST that.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1683 - 2013-09-23 12:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Azrael Dinn wrote:
It is not. If the cloaked up person does not want to engage me or someone else he will stay hidden as long as he wants and I still cannot not do anything to find, or to stop him or anything else


Well, considering we're talking about a CovOps or at best a Recon here, you could always just escort your industry alt with a PvP alt, or have PvP alts on stand by in the same station ...

Or I don't know, you could fit 2 warp core stabs, and then you don't even have to worry about him making a move for you. You just warp out regardless of what he does. Then again, I guess fitting stabs means you have to do more trips back to the stations because you had to remove those cargo expanders instead, and that would hurt your mining income. We can't have that now can we.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1684 - 2013-09-23 12:29:16 UTC
To be honest though, carry on. I'll continue to shower myself in isk, made between my null guys and my high sec fleet (leaning more toward high these days) and you can continue to reduce null population, then cry about how there's nobody for you to fight. You realise it's yourself you are punishing right? Where I make isk during my op downtime has absolutely no impact on me at all. You want me to do it in null, so you have more people to shoot at. Yet you argue for changes that reduce null population and against changes that would encourage it. It truly boggles the mind.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#1685 - 2013-09-23 12:31:21 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
You mean you can't be bothered to reply to people who point out glaring contradictions in your posts, friend lucas.

And I have never said that local should be removed, only that some changes to local would need to be made if changes to cloaks were made.

No, I mean we've covered this over and over. You refusing to read and instead choosing to repeat your old posts is not worth my time.
I'm going to highlight "if changes to cloaks were made" since I DON'T WANT CLOAK CHANGES. I want AFK PLAYER changes.


Then how come you aren't demanding people who afk mine, or sit afk in POS shields or stations, also have similar penalties pushed upon them? Why aren't you asking that they be ejected after X minutes, or make a change such that I, the hunter, could put in some effort which would remove them from the station?

And how come the suggestions also, more than anything, massively hinder active players? If I'm sitting at my keyboard and actively watching you while cloaked, this idea of removing the uncertainty about afk players would in turn provide you a certainties about me, the active player. It punishes me, the active player, as I may want you to THINK I'm AFK. Now I can't. Thanks for ruining active players playstyles, bro.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1686 - 2013-09-23 12:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Then how come you aren't demanding people who afk mine, or sit afk in POS shields or stations, also have similar penalties pushed upon them? Why aren't you asking that they be ejected after X minutes, or make a change such that I, the hunter, could put in some effort which would remove them from the station?

And how come the suggestions also, more than anything, massively hinder active players? If I'm sitting at my keyboard and actively watching you while cloaked, this idea of removing the uncertainty about afk players would in turn provide you a certainties about me, the active player. It punishes me, the active player, as I may want you to THINK I'm AFK. Now I can't. Thanks for ruining active players playstyles, bro.

He just doesn't want to get ganked by ships with cloaks anymore really. Imagine the drama we would have if modules would not start a new cycle automatically ... Imagine if miners would have to come back to their keyboard every xx seconds to click on that module again.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1687 - 2013-09-23 12:34:43 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
You mean you can't be bothered to reply to people who point out glaring contradictions in your posts, friend lucas.

And I have never said that local should be removed, only that some changes to local would need to be made if changes to cloaks were made.

No, I mean we've covered this over and over. You refusing to read and instead choosing to repeat your old posts is not worth my time.
I'm going to highlight "if changes to cloaks were made" since I DON'T WANT CLOAK CHANGES. I want AFK PLAYER changes.


Then how come you aren't demanding people who afk mine, or sit afk in POS shields or stations, also have similar penalties pushed upon them? Why aren't you asking that they be ejected after X minutes, or make a change such that I, the hunter, could put in some effort which would remove them from the station?

And how come the suggestions also, more than anything, massively hinder active players? If I'm sitting at my keyboard and actively watching you while cloaked, this idea of removing the uncertainty about afk players would in turn provide you a certainties about me, the active player. It punishes me, the active player, as I may want you to THINK I'm AFK. Now I can't. Thanks for ruining active players playstyles, bro.
We've covered this. Pages back. I'm not repeating things you should be reading. Go back, read it, then come back. If you can;t be bothered to read the thread, then why the hell are you posting in it?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1688 - 2013-09-23 12:35:13 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Then how come you aren't demanding people who afk mine, or sit afk in POS shields or stations, also have similar penalties pushed upon them? Why aren't you asking that they be ejected after X minutes, or make a change such that I, the hunter, could put in some effort which would remove them from the station?

And how come the suggestions also, more than anything, massively hinder active players? If I'm sitting at my keyboard and actively watching you while cloaked, this idea of removing the uncertainty about afk players would in turn provide you a certainties about me, the active player. It punishes me, the active player, as I may want you to THINK I'm AFK. Now I can't. Thanks for ruining active players playstyles, bro.

He just doesn't want to get ganked by ships with cloaks anymore really. Imagine the drama we would have if modules would not start a new cycle automatically ... Imagine if miners would have to come back to their keyboard every xx seconds to click on that module again.
Troll troll troll. I haven't asked for anything like this.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
JIeoH Mocc
brotherhood of desman
#1689 - 2013-09-23 12:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: JIeoH Mocc
Lucas Kell wrote:
To be honest though, carry on. I'll continue to shower myself in isk, made between my null guys and my high sec fleet (leaning more toward high these days) and you can continue to reduce null population, then cry about how there's nobody for you to fight. You realise it's yourself you are punishing right? Where I make isk during my op downtime has absolutely no impact on me at all. You want me to do it in null, so you have more people to shoot at. Yet you argue for changes that reduce null population and against changes that would encourage it. It truly boggles the mind.


Kind of contradicting yourself again, if guys like you move out, that won't be noticed on the "someone to fight" front.
After all, you won't fight, will you? You'll dock up with your good chances to do that... and sit there. So i don't want you in null, i don't recognize a valuable target in you, and as someone not interacting with you except maybe by roaming you i see no content from you ... As I said before, you can leave and i doubt anyone besides these who share a system with you will notice, your argument of "INDIES LEAVING NULL AND YOU ALL WILL SUFFER" is kind of overrated, I'd like to see some solid numbers before i can take it seriously.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1690 - 2013-09-23 12:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Lucas Kell wrote:
Troll troll troll. I haven't asked for anything like this.

Oh I see, staying in space with a cloak while AFK is bad, but mining while AFK is OK? How about instead of just looking at one specific group, you remove AFKing from ALL players, including mining characters. I'm open for that. If something is done about AFKing that targets ALL kinds and forms of AFKing, I'm definitely getting behind that.

As for something that only targets players using 1 specific module, no way. Are you out of your mind?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1691 - 2013-09-23 12:39:11 UTC
JIeoH Mocc wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
To be honest though, carry on. I'll continue to shower myself in isk, made between my null guys and my high sec fleet (leaning more toward high these days) and you can continue to reduce null population, then cry about how there's nobody for you to fight. You realise it's yourself you are punishing right? Where I make isk during my op downtime has absolutely no impact on me at all. You want me to do it in null, so you have more people to shoot at. Yet you argue for changes that reduce null population and against changes that would encourage it. It truly boggles the mind.


Kind of contradicting yourself again, if guys like you move out, that won't be noticed on the "someone to fight" front.
After all, you won't fight, will you? You'll dock up with your good chances to do that... and sit there. So i don't want you in null, i don't recognize a valuable target in you... As I said before, you can leave and i doubt anyone will notice, your argument of "INDIES LEAVING NULL AND YOU ALL WILL SUFFER" is kind of overrated, I'd like to see some solid numbers before i can take it seriously.
I'm "someone to gank" though. And as long as I think you are actually going to engage, I'm always willing to grab a combat ship and fight. Cloakers 9 times out of 10 simply hide and refuse to engage, thus wasting my time, which is why when it's a cloaker, I just move on.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#1692 - 2013-09-23 12:40:07 UTC
JIeoH Mocc wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
To be honest though, carry on. I'll continue to shower myself in isk, made between my null guys and my high sec fleet (leaning more toward high these days) and you can continue to reduce null population, then cry about how there's nobody for you to fight. You realise it's yourself you are punishing right? Where I make isk during my op downtime has absolutely no impact on me at all. You want me to do it in null, so you have more people to shoot at. Yet you argue for changes that reduce null population and against changes that would encourage it. It truly boggles the mind.


Kind of contradicting yourself again, if guys like you move out, that won't be noticed on the "someone to fight" front.
After all, you won't fight, will you? You'll dock up with your good chances to do that... and sit there. So i don't want you in null, i don't recognize a valuable target in you, and as someone not interacting with you except maybe by roaming you i see no content from you ... As I said before, you can leave and i doubt anyone besides these who share a system with you will notice, your argument of "INDIES LEAVING NULL AND YOU ALL WILL SUFFER" is kind of overrated, I'd like to see some solid numbers before i can take it seriously.


Good point. The whole "People like me dock up with 100% success and refuse to fight" doesn't quite match up with "People like me will leave nullsec and you wont have anyone to fight!"
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1693 - 2013-09-23 12:40:59 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Troll troll troll. I haven't asked for anything like this.

Oh I see, staying in space with a cloak while AFK is bad, but mining while AFK is OK? How about instead of just looking at one specific group, you remove AFKing from ALL players, including mining characters. I'm open for that. If something is done about AFKing that targets ALL kinds and forms of AFKing, I'm definitely getting behind that.

As for something that only targets players using 1 specific module, no way.
Erm no?
I previously stated I don;t like AFK mining either, and I don't AFK mine myself. Sure you can remove AFK from all players, but it's a lot harder to implement for others, and you can observe most AFK players. An AFK cloaker is hidden, thus can't be observed, and so has a benefit over all of the others.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1694 - 2013-09-23 12:41:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'm "someone to gank" though. And as long as I think you are actually going to engage, I'm always willing to grab a combat ship and fight. Cloakers 9 times out of 10 simply hide and refuse to engage, thus wasting my time, which is why when it's a cloaker, I just move on.

Aha, there it is! Your problem isn't with the AFKers, it's with the cloakers. You just haven't figured out how to handle players flying cloaked ships. Ultimately, you can't lose ships to an AFK pilot can you. :P
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1695 - 2013-09-23 12:42:23 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
JIeoH Mocc wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
To be honest though, carry on. I'll continue to shower myself in isk, made between my null guys and my high sec fleet (leaning more toward high these days) and you can continue to reduce null population, then cry about how there's nobody for you to fight. You realise it's yourself you are punishing right? Where I make isk during my op downtime has absolutely no impact on me at all. You want me to do it in null, so you have more people to shoot at. Yet you argue for changes that reduce null population and against changes that would encourage it. It truly boggles the mind.


Kind of contradicting yourself again, if guys like you move out, that won't be noticed on the "someone to fight" front.
After all, you won't fight, will you? You'll dock up with your good chances to do that... and sit there. So i don't want you in null, i don't recognize a valuable target in you, and as someone not interacting with you except maybe by roaming you i see no content from you ... As I said before, you can leave and i doubt anyone besides these who share a system with you will notice, your argument of "INDIES LEAVING NULL AND YOU ALL WILL SUFFER" is kind of overrated, I'd like to see some solid numbers before i can take it seriously.


Good point. The whole "People like me dock up with 100% success and refuse to fight" doesn't quite match up with "People like me will leave nullsec and you wont have anyone to fight!"
Honestly, since you seem to be either unable to read or purposely trying to attack me, I'm like a click away from simply ignoring everything you say. How about you learn to read and you learn to be civil or you go trash talk in a different thread?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1696 - 2013-09-23 12:43:29 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'm "someone to gank" though. And as long as I think you are actually going to engage, I'm always willing to grab a combat ship and fight. Cloakers 9 times out of 10 simply hide and refuse to engage, thus wasting my time, which is why when it's a cloaker, I just move on.

AH THERE IT IS. Your problem isn't with the AFKers, it's with the cloakers. You just haven't figured out how to handle players flying cloaked ships. Ultimately, you can't lose ships to an AFK pilot can you. :P
No. the fact that I don't waste my time with cloakers is TOTALLY SEPARATE from wanting AFK cloakers to be removed. Look at the method I'm asking for. It HAS NO EFFECT AT ALL ON ACTIVE CLOAKERS. There, nice and big since you seem to struggle reading.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
JIeoH Mocc
brotherhood of desman
#1697 - 2013-09-23 12:44:30 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
]I'm "someone to gank" though. And as long as I think you are actually going to engage, I'm always willing to grab a combat ship and fight. Cloakers 9 times out of 10 simply hide and refuse to engage, thus wasting my time, which is why when it's a cloaker, I just move on.

You're someone to chuckle at while passing in local and seeing you under a POS field.
You're someone to gank with 1 out of 100 probability, while the rest of 99 out of 100 times you just dock or crawl under a field.
Your time is hardly an argument in any case, since no one cares about what you do in game, and how you spend your time - that's what you fail to grasp. You buy a subscription, and waste that time at your leisure, with the constraints of the ingame socium/meta/mechanic. What you want or don't want hardly warrant any changes, while you fail to argument any objective reasons except "I DONT WANT TO SPEND MY TIME". I mean the guy cloaky-camping you spends his time, and he doesn't whine for "PURGE OUT OF THE POS FIELD TIMER FIX" BS, hah.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1698 - 2013-09-23 12:45:59 UTC
I just don't understand why you don't want to protect your industry. :( Obviously a PvE ship will die fast to a PvP ship, so the obvious solution would be to protect your PvE investments, with a PvP ship.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1699 - 2013-09-23 12:46:04 UTC
JIeoH Mocc wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
]I'm "someone to gank" though. And as long as I think you are actually going to engage, I'm always willing to grab a combat ship and fight. Cloakers 9 times out of 10 simply hide and refuse to engage, thus wasting my time, which is why when it's a cloaker, I just move on.

You're someone to chuckle at while passing in local and seeing you under a POS field.
You're someone to gank with 1 out of 100 probability, while the rest of 99 out of 100 times you just dock or crawl under a field.
Your time is hardly an argument in any case, since no one cares about what you do in game, and how you spend your time - that's what you fail to grasp. You buy a subscription, and waste that time at your leisure, with the constraints of the ingame socium/meta/mechanic. What you want or don't want hardly warrant any changes, while you fail to argument any objective reasons except "I DONT WANT TO SPEND MY TIME". I mean the guy cloaky-camping you spends his time, and he doesn't whine for "PURGE OUT OF THE POS FIELD TIMER FIX" BS, hah.
Erm no, he's instead whining for "remove cloakers from local". How is that not setting you off?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#1700 - 2013-09-23 12:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Lucas, what if the people sitting cloaked in system weren't AFK but had absolutely no intentions on fighting? What if they were waiting to see if someone else - a specific target, who they know logged off in your system, for examle - logs on? Or if they were just chilling there while waiting for something else to happen - for example waiting for to find out where to head to for an OP? Or if they were just sitting there doing PI or something. They're entirely active, but not interested in you or your system at all, and they're just in a little cov ops frig, no cyno, not even a scram. Would you be ok with the "appearance of risk" presented by this player? They are actively playing the game, after all

just a hypothetical I wanted clearing up, with regards to the "appearance of risk"