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AFK Cloaking Collection Thread

First post First post
Author
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4061 - 2013-12-20 23:17:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Astroniomix wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
Salvaging and looting adds real virtual goods and are directly connected to ratting.

But not at anwhere near the rate that it injects raw isk into the system.

I'd like to see the numerical analysis to back-up this assertion. My inclination is to say that it might actually because the ISK/hr for mining optimally the ABC's seems at least somewhat comparable to the ISK/hr of ratting. I guess I should note that I consider mining in addition to salvage and drops with the activities allowed in a system free of AFK cloaking; operations are moved to such systems. What leads you to draw that conclusion, Astro?

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4062 - 2013-12-20 23:38:55 UTC
ISD Ezwal wrote:
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. This time I let a lot of edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The rules:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.


4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.


26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.
Honestly, this thread is never going to end and is always going to generate this kind of thing. When polarised to this extend the community tends to produce this kind of thing as people are so intolerant of people holding an opinion that isn't in line with theirs. Since both sides have this and neither will back down, it will keep heating up to a pinnacle, turning into attack and insults then collapsing before repeating the whole process again.

In all honesty, why is this thread still open? How is it adding to the forum in any positive way? It was started as a way to troll the ideas it was linking in the first place, so should have been closed on day 1, and has had numerous posts removed, and it way too long and repetitive to be of any use.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4063 - 2013-12-20 23:45:13 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Let me also explain the inflation comment above, thanks to Eve Search I see some had some issue with this.....

Basically, inflation occurs when the growth rate of money in an economy is faster than the growth rate of real goods and services (I hope I don't have to explain the elementary concept of real goods and services...oh heck....these are actual goods and services. A car is a real good.) Oh, and it was Andy that found that awesome quote attributed to Mankiw, Abel and Bernanke (definitely experts on macro economics and monetary theory to be sure).

Now, suppose we come up with a way to remove AFK cloaking but do nothing to add additional constraints on ratting. Income from bounties will go up. This is an extremely reasonable inference given that no more AFK cloaking means ratters can actually spend more time ratting and earning more isk via bounties. That isk via bounties means there is now an increase growth rate of isk in the game. Now going back to the statement, inflation is a result of having a growth rate of money faster than the growth rate of real goods and service, we can see that if the New Eden economy already has a positive rate of inflation removing AFK cloaking will absolutely have to result in more inflation due to the higher isk incomes from ratting bounties.

To the extent that CCP and players care about the inflation rate, AFK cloaking is something that keeps the inflation rate lower than it otherwise would be.

For this to not be the case, AFK cloaking has to result in absolutely no disruption of ratting at all. If this is true, then why are we going on about AFK cloaking if it has zero impact on people's ratting. Instead we see people going on and on on these forums with thread after thread about the horribleness of AFK cloaking.

So the answer has to be: no AFK cloaking ----> higher rate of inflation. With out any doubt what so ever. Otherwise the is zero problems with AFK cloaking. Everyone who complains about it, has complained about it or will complain about is is a liar...because it if it does not increase the rate of inflation, it must not be denying content or reducing ratting incomes.
This is wrong for at least 2 reasons.
1. AFK cloaking barely affects ratters. Ratters don't need to rely on stations or shipping of goods or anything like that so they have a lot more places to rat, and find it considerably easier to move. So the increase from ratting bounties will be minimal.
2. In addition to the above, if AFK cloaking were removed, and PVE activity increased (which honestly I doubt it would more than a trivial amount), then it wouldn't JUST be ratting that increases, it would be mining too, and it's likely mining would increase more (as it's marginally harder for a miner to shift operational areas). This means that any increase in the rate of isk entering the system would be countered by the increased raw materials entering the system.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#4064 - 2013-12-20 23:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Andy Landen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
.....
Basically, inflation occurs when the growth rate of money in an economy is faster than the growth rate of real goods and services (I hope I don't have to explain the elementary concept of real goods and services...oh heck....these are actual goods and services. A car is a real good.) Oh, and it was Andy that found that awesome quote attributed to Mankiw, Abel and Bernanke (definitely experts on macro economics and monetary theory to be sure).
...
To the extent that CCP and players care about the inflation rate, AFK cloaking is something that keeps the inflation rate lower than it otherwise would be.
...

Teckos, as we discussed before, increasing the goods decreases the effect of money supply increase on inflation. Salvaging and looting adds real virtual goods and are directly connected to ratting. Mining, which I call PVE because it is not pvp, increases goods without any connection to the money supply changes. When ratting resumes in a system (assuming it did not relocate yet) so also does mining, usually. The increase in ore goods also compensates for the increase in money supply due to additional ratting.

To be fair, since relocation is typically preferred to inactivity, afk cloaking may not have as much effect as we might think, and therefore the lack of any "influence" it may have on reducing the increase in money supply may not have as much affect on inflation either.

And lastly, incursions and wormhole activities continuing despite AFK cloaking dominate any inflation so that any reductions in AFK cloaking will not influence those activities or their effects on inflation. If three faucets pour into the inflation bucket, but the first one is only a trickle, then turning that one off or down will not have much affect. Most people agree that the real wealth is in wormholes and incursions.

Hey look, I found my post on your replies to my three comparison questions: http://eve-search.com/thread/216699-1/page/139#4169


Salvaging and looting will also add isk to the ratters wallet as well, so that effect I would argue. does not support your conclusion.

So unless we reduce rat bounties and just let the ratters get extra loot and salvage or they all switch over to mining, the conclusion is still ironclad, IMO. No AFK cloaking ---> higher inflation.

Incursions and wormholes are irrelevant because we are talking about an ACCELERATION of the inflation rate, the currently existing inflation rate. So either you nerf wormholes and incursions so that null sec ratters can enjoy higher incomes--i.e. a wealth transfer, or you accept that removing AFK cloaking results in higher inflation.

Sorry Andy, nice try, but your answer falls far, far short. Greg Mankiw would not give you a good mark for this kind of anwer in his econ 10 course.

Bottom line: No more AFK cloaking (with no additional constraints on ratting income) then a higher rate of inflation. And we'd almost surely see that in PLEX prices too.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#4065 - 2013-12-21 00:01:45 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
This is wrong for at least 2 reasons.
1. AFK cloaking barely affects ratters. Ratters don't need to rely on stations or shipping of goods or anything like that so they have a lot more places to rat, and find it considerably easier to move. So the increase from ratting bounties will be minimal.


Then AFK tags and removing AFK cloaking are irrelevant. In fact, standing policy should be to lock any and all anti-AFK cloaking threads henceforth as AFK cloaking does nothing beyond a minor annoyance. All the hurf-n-blurf from scrubs posting on the evils of AFK cloaking are a direct result of mendacious miscreants who should probably also get a forum ban, if not a ban from the game (minimum of 2 weeks, IMO, for being such useless scrubs).

Quote:
2. In addition to the above, if AFK cloaking were removed, and PVE activity increased (which honestly I doubt it would more than a trivial amount), then it wouldn't JUST be ratting that increases, it would be mining too, and it's likely mining would increase more (as it's marginally harder for a miner to shift operational areas). This means that any increase in the rate of isk entering the system would be countered by the increased raw materials entering the system.


This is, quite simply, errant nonsense. Ratting has to absolutely increase because, as YOU have so frequently argued, when an AFK cloaker shows up you:

1. Assume he is active at all times.
2. Dock/safe up and cease all PvE activity.

Removing this would therefore mean that ratters afflicted by AFK cloaking are not free to rat.

You cannot have it both ways.

So your choices at this point are:

1. Admit that AFK cloaking is really nothing but an insignificant annoyance (BTW, let me help you out, this is what you are claiming above...although I'm sure you'll completely deny this and in the next post claim that AFK cloaking is indeed more serious than you imply above), and local and AFK cloaking are perfectly fine and should continue as before--i.e. you support Mag's position 100%.

2. Admit that removing AFK cloaking by itself is not a balanced approach to the problem.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#4066 - 2013-12-21 00:03:17 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
ISD Ezwal wrote:
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. This time I let a lot of edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The rules:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.


4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.


26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.
Honestly, this thread is never going to end and is always going to generate this kind of thing. When polarised to this extend the community tends to produce this kind of thing as people are so intolerant of people holding an opinion that isn't in line with theirs. Since both sides have this and neither will back down, it will keep heating up to a pinnacle, turning into attack and insults then collapsing before repeating the whole process again.

In all honesty, why is this thread still open? How is it adding to the forum in any positive way? It was started as a way to troll the ideas it was linking in the first place, so should have been closed on day 1, and has had numerous posts removed, and it way too long and repetitive to be of any use.

Do you honestly think they want other threads opening on this topic?

I can't speak for any but myself, but I believe I am objective, and willing to hear out ideas on their own merits.

I can say this, because I am not favoring ANY idea, even my own.

If I find a better idea that addresses the problem, and solves it more efficiently while not diminishing gameplay, I will be happy to endorse that idea. I have links to my own idea because I am still waiting on a better solution.
Please, if you can give me something I like better, I want to know about it, so I can replace my own idea in that spotlight.

But I am always willing to talk it out.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4067 - 2013-12-21 00:06:37 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvaging and looting will also add isk to the ratters wallet as well, so that effect I would argue. does not support your conclusion.

So unless we reduce rat bounties and just let the ratters get extra loot and salvage or they all switch over to mining, the conclusion is still ironclad, IMO. No AFK cloaking ---> higher inflation.

Incursions and wormholes are irrelevant because we are talking about an ACCELERATION of the inflation rate, the currently existing inflation rate. So either you nerf wormholes and incursions so that null sec ratters can enjoy higher incomes--i.e. a wealth transfer, or you accept that removing AFK cloaking results in higher inflation.

Sorry Andy, nice try, but your answer falls far, far short. Greg Mankiw would not give you a good mark for this kind of anwer in his econ 10 course.

Bottom line: No more AFK cloaking (with no additional constraints on ratting income) then a higher rate of inflation. And we'd almost surely see that in PLEX prices too.
You put this a choice between two options, ignoring the obvious option 3, which is that you are in fact wrong, as stated above.

And for inflation, it doesn't matter who holds the isk, as you rightly stated before, its to do with the isk coming into the system vs the products. more isk into the system without increasing the amount of product causes inflation. Increasing the products without increasing the isk generation causes deflation. In the situation we are discussing, I would expect the amount of products entering the system to increase considerably more than the amount of isk, though I would think the amount of either would be negligible.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#4068 - 2013-12-21 00:09:39 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvaging and looting will also add isk to the ratters wallet as well, so that effect I would argue. does not support your conclusion.

So unless we reduce rat bounties and just let the ratters get extra loot and salvage or they all switch over to mining, the conclusion is still ironclad, IMO. No AFK cloaking ---> higher inflation.

Incursions and wormholes are irrelevant because we are talking about an ACCELERATION of the inflation rate, the currently existing inflation rate. So either you nerf wormholes and incursions so that null sec ratters can enjoy higher incomes--i.e. a wealth transfer, or you accept that removing AFK cloaking results in higher inflation.

Sorry Andy, nice try, but your answer falls far, far short. Greg Mankiw would not give you a good mark for this kind of anwer in his econ 10 course.

Bottom line: No more AFK cloaking (with no additional constraints on ratting income) then a higher rate of inflation. And we'd almost surely see that in PLEX prices too.
You put this a choice between two options, ignoring the obvious option 3, which is that you are in fact wrong, as stated above.

And for inflation, it doesn't matter who holds the isk, as you rightly stated before, its to do with the isk coming into the system vs the products. more isk into the system without increasing the amount of product causes inflation. Increasing the products without increasing the isk generation causes deflation. In the situation we are discussing, I would expect the amount of products entering the system to increase considerably more than the amount of isk, though I would think the amount of either would be negligible.


The only way for you to conclude I am wrong is to assume I am wrong.

That type of argument is only slightly better than posting, "I know you are, but what am I?"

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4069 - 2013-12-21 00:12:17 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Then AFK tags and removing AFK cloaking are irrelevant. In fact, standing policy should be to lock any and all anti-AFK cloaking threads henceforth as AFK cloaking does nothing beyond a minor annoyance. All the hurf-n-blurf from scrubs posting on the evils of AFK cloaking are a direct result of mendacious miscreants who should probably also get a forum ban, if not a ban from the game (minimum of 2 weeks, IMO, for being such useless scrubs).
If you are only looking at income, sure. I'm not though. I think that there would be more usable space and more people would have the opportunity to try out null should many systems not be effectively shut down 24/7. For me it's all about space and the content it generates by being used for any active activity.

Teckos Pech wrote:
This is, quite simply, errant nonsense. Ratting has to absolutely increase because, as YOU have so frequently argued, when an AFK cloaker shows up you:

1. Assume he is active at all times.
2. Dock/safe up and cease all PvE activity.

Removing this would therefore mean that ratters afflicted by AFK cloaking are not free to rat.

You cannot have it both ways.

So your choices at this point are:

1. Admit that AFK cloaking is really nothing but an insignificant annoyance (BTW, let me help you out, this is what you are claiming above...although I'm sure you'll completely deny this and in the next post claim that AFK cloaking is indeed more serious than you imply above), and local and AFK cloaking are perfectly fine and should continue as before--i.e. you support Mag's position 100%.

2. Admit that removing AFK cloaking by itself is not a balanced approach to the problem.
Uh, no. You don't just "dock up". You move to alternate/backup systems. There are few people that basically quit playing because a cloaker shows up, they just find something else to do to fill the gap.

And please stop telling everyone they have to pick between the choices you lay out for them. You are setting out heavily loaded responses limited by your incredibly narrow view and saying we must conform to them. Ludicrous.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4070 - 2013-12-21 00:14:41 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvaging and looting will also add isk to the ratters wallet as well, so that effect I would argue. does not support your conclusion.

So unless we reduce rat bounties and just let the ratters get extra loot and salvage or they all switch over to mining, the conclusion is still ironclad, IMO. No AFK cloaking ---> higher inflation.

Incursions and wormholes are irrelevant because we are talking about an ACCELERATION of the inflation rate, the currently existing inflation rate. So either you nerf wormholes and incursions so that null sec ratters can enjoy higher incomes--i.e. a wealth transfer, or you accept that removing AFK cloaking results in higher inflation.

Sorry Andy, nice try, but your answer falls far, far short. Greg Mankiw would not give you a good mark for this kind of anwer in his econ 10 course.

Bottom line: No more AFK cloaking (with no additional constraints on ratting income) then a higher rate of inflation. And we'd almost surely see that in PLEX prices too.
You put this a choice between two options, ignoring the obvious option 3, which is that you are in fact wrong, as stated above.

And for inflation, it doesn't matter who holds the isk, as you rightly stated before, its to do with the isk coming into the system vs the products. more isk into the system without increasing the amount of product causes inflation. Increasing the products without increasing the isk generation causes deflation. In the situation we are discussing, I would expect the amount of products entering the system to increase considerably more than the amount of isk, though I would think the amount of either would be negligible.


The only way for you to conclude I am wrong is to assume I am wrong.

That type of argument is only slightly better than posting, "I know you are, but what am I?"
lol?
No, I'm simply stating that you are wrong, and clearly and concisely explaining why. The fact that you completely ignore the explanation and instead post "You are arguing wrong" merely shows you have no counterpoint.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#4071 - 2013-12-21 00:17:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


In all honesty, why is this thread still open? How is it adding to the forum in any positive way? It was started as a way to troll the ideas it was linking in the first place, so should have been closed on day 1, and has had numerous posts removed, and it way too long and repetitive to be of any use.


In all honesty why is any anti-AFK cloaking thread allowed for more than 10 seconds?

They all repeat the same tired old ideas--i.e. they are repetitious posts which are against the forum rules. Every last one should be closed immediately, heck they should have every reply removed and ISD should edit the opening post and remove all content and note that such posts are expressly forbidden by the rules. I'd even be in favor of ISD/CCP automating that process so that as soon as such a post shows up it is nuked almost immediately.

Yet, such posts are not only allowed, they go on for page-after-page with almost no meaningful discussions and no interesting ideas suggested beyond the totally banal.

Here we have had at least 2 ideas that are interesting (IMO).

1. Andy's idea of intel structures and cloaked ships not showing in local if they aren't on grid with said structures.
2. Your idea Lucas, that a ship jumping into a new system does not show in local until after the gate cloak drops.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4072 - 2013-12-21 00:18:16 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
ISD Ezwal wrote:
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. This time I let a lot of edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The rules:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.


4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.


26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.
Honestly, this thread is never going to end and is always going to generate this kind of thing. When polarised to this extend the community tends to produce this kind of thing as people are so intolerant of people holding an opinion that isn't in line with theirs. Since both sides have this and neither will back down, it will keep heating up to a pinnacle, turning into attack and insults then collapsing before repeating the whole process again.

In all honesty, why is this thread still open? How is it adding to the forum in any positive way? It was started as a way to troll the ideas it was linking in the first place, so should have been closed on day 1, and has had numerous posts removed, and it way too long and repetitive to be of any use.

Do you honestly think they want other threads opening on this topic?

I can't speak for any but myself, but I believe I am objective, and willing to hear out ideas on their own merits.

I can say this, because I am not favoring ANY idea, even my own.

If I find a better idea that addresses the problem, and solves it more efficiently while not diminishing gameplay, I will be happy to endorse that idea. I have links to my own idea because I am still waiting on a better solution.
Please, if you can give me something I like better, I want to know about it, so I can replace my own idea in that spotlight.

But I am always willing to talk it out.
For the entirety of this thread, any time any idea that is counters to yours and Teckos has been stated, you guys have piled wall upon wall of text on them until they give up and leave. You are not discussing anything. You are bombarding people with nonsense until they either agree with your point of view or leave. This is a completely pointless thread that adds no worth. It's was designed from post 1 as a troll. All you have to do is read the way the initial post is written to understand that it was ridiculing the ideas linked.

And you... objective? You can't be serious.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#4073 - 2013-12-21 00:20:03 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvaging and looting will also add isk to the ratters wallet as well, so that effect I would argue. does not support your conclusion.

So unless we reduce rat bounties and just let the ratters get extra loot and salvage or they all switch over to mining, the conclusion is still ironclad, IMO. No AFK cloaking ---> higher inflation.

Incursions and wormholes are irrelevant because we are talking about an ACCELERATION of the inflation rate, the currently existing inflation rate. So either you nerf wormholes and incursions so that null sec ratters can enjoy higher incomes--i.e. a wealth transfer, or you accept that removing AFK cloaking results in higher inflation.

Sorry Andy, nice try, but your answer falls far, far short. Greg Mankiw would not give you a good mark for this kind of anwer in his econ 10 course.

Bottom line: No more AFK cloaking (with no additional constraints on ratting income) then a higher rate of inflation. And we'd almost surely see that in PLEX prices too.
You put this a choice between two options, ignoring the obvious option 3, which is that you are in fact wrong, as stated above.

And for inflation, it doesn't matter who holds the isk, as you rightly stated before, its to do with the isk coming into the system vs the products. more isk into the system without increasing the amount of product causes inflation. Increasing the products without increasing the isk generation causes deflation. In the situation we are discussing, I would expect the amount of products entering the system to increase considerably more than the amount of isk, though I would think the amount of either would be negligible.


The only way for you to conclude I am wrong is to assume I am wrong.

That type of argument is only slightly better than posting, "I know you are, but what am I?"
lol?
No, I'm simply stating that you are wrong, and clearly and concisely explaining why. The fact that you completely ignore the explanation and instead post "You are arguing wrong" merely shows you have no counterpoint.


You have not explained nothing. Ratting has to increase in the absence of AFK cloaking...or if not, then ratting was never impacted by AFK cloaking and nothing should be done about it.

Even though ratting does produce more loot and salvage, that also produces more income much like increasing mining would also increase both goods and incomes and have little impact on inflation...but ratting also has a pure income effect--bounties. THAT part would be purely inflationary.

Since high sec incursions and wormholes would not be changed by any change to AFK cloaking that part of the inflation issue would also be unchanged. Hence mentioning was merely a distraction.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4074 - 2013-12-21 00:20:48 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:


In all honesty, why is this thread still open? How is it adding to the forum in any positive way? It was started as a way to troll the ideas it was linking in the first place, so should have been closed on day 1, and has had numerous posts removed, and it way too long and repetitive to be of any use.


In all honesty why is any anti-AFK cloaking thread allowed for more than 10 seconds?

They all repeat the same tired old ideas--i.e. they are repetitious posts which are against the forum rules. Every last one should be closed immediately, heck they should have every reply removed and ISD should edit the opening post and remove all content and note that such posts are expressly forbidden by the rules. I'd even be in favor of ISD/CCP automating that process so that as soon as such a post shows up it is nuked almost immediately.

Yet, such posts are not only allowed, they go on for page-after-page with almost no meaningful discussions and no interesting ideas suggested beyond the totally banal.

Here we have had at least 2 ideas that are interesting (IMO).

1. Andy's idea of intel structures and cloaked ships not showing in local if they aren't on grid with said structures.
2. Your idea Lucas, that a ship jumping into a new system does not show in local until after the gate cloak drops.
Because the ideas, whether YOU like them or not are valid and deserve a discussion. A discussion which you will not allow to happen here. You've created a thread about AFK cloaking where any discussion outside your ideas is outlawed, and you will simply troll people into leaving if they try.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4075 - 2013-12-21 00:27:27 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
You have not explained nothing. Ratting has to increase in the absence of AFK cloaking...or if not, then ratting was never impacted by AFK cloaking and nothing should be done about it.

Even though ratting does produce more loot and salvage, that also produces more income much like increasing mining would also increase both goods and incomes and have little impact on inflation...but ratting also has a pure income effect--bounties. THAT part would be purely inflationary.

Since high sec incursions and wormholes would not be changed by any change to AFK cloaking that part of the inflation issue would also be unchanged. Hence mentioning was merely a distraction.
Oh man I can;t be bothered to go down this road again, where you simply ignore half of a post then tell us what we're saying.

Here it is in the simplest terms.
If AFK cloaking is removed and PVE activity increase, BOTH ISK and products will increase thus inflation won't, as the balance between ISK and products in the system remains unchanged (or likely in favour of product). For inflation to increase bounty income would have to increase beyond the increase in product supply, which it wouldn't, not even remotely.

You are literally being difficult for the sake of being difficult, and because you are so utterly ******* incapable of admitting you are wrong. Well right here you are buddy. If you think the removal of AFK cloaking would increase inflation, you are wrong, totally and utterly wrong. You clearly do not understand the fundamentals of the mechanics you are trying to explain, so just don;t bother.

Alternatively proceed with what you will do, which is ignore half my post and cry about how you are so incredibly right because nothing you say can possibly be wrong, ever. And this right here is why this thread goes nowhere. Even the simplest of concepts you will argue to death just for the sake of it no matter how ******** you sound doing it.

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Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4076 - 2013-12-21 01:12:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Teckos Pech wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
.....
Basically, inflation occurs when the growth rate of money in an economy is faster than the growth rate of real goods and services (I hope I don't have to explain the elementary concept of real goods and services...oh heck....these are actual goods and services. A car is a real good.) Oh, and it was Andy that found that awesome quote attributed to Mankiw, Abel and Bernanke (definitely experts on macro economics and monetary theory to be sure).
...
To the extent that CCP and players care about the inflation rate, AFK cloaking is something that keeps the inflation rate lower than it otherwise would be.
...

Teckos, as we discussed before, increasing the goods decreases the effect of money supply increase on inflation. Salvaging and looting adds real virtual goods and are directly connected to ratting. Mining, which I call PVE because it is not pvp, increases goods without any connection to the money supply changes. When ratting resumes in a system (assuming it did not relocate yet) so also does mining, usually. The increase in ore goods also compensates for the increase in money supply due to additional ratting.

To be fair, since relocation is typically preferred to inactivity, afk cloaking may not have as much effect as we might think, and therefore the lack of any "influence" it may have on reducing the increase in money supply may not have as much affect on inflation either.

And lastly, incursions and wormhole activities continuing despite AFK cloaking dominate any inflation so that any reductions in AFK cloaking will not influence those activities or their effects on inflation. If three faucets pour into the inflation bucket, but the first one is only a trickle, then turning that one off or down will not have much affect. Most people agree that the real wealth is in wormholes and incursions.

Hey look, I found my post on your replies to my three comparison questions: http://eve-search.com/thread/216699-1/page/139#4169


Salvaging and looting will also add isk to the ratters wallet as well, so that effect I would argue. does not support your conclusion.

So unless we reduce rat bounties and just let the ratters get extra loot and salvage or they all switch over to mining, the conclusion is still ironclad, IMO. No AFK cloaking ---> higher inflation.

Incursions and wormholes are irrelevant because we are talking about an ACCELERATION of the inflation rate, the currently existing inflation rate. So either you nerf wormholes and incursions so that null sec ratters can enjoy higher incomes--i.e. a wealth transfer, or you accept that removing AFK cloaking results in higher inflation.

Sorry Andy, nice try, but your answer falls far, far short. Greg Mankiw would not give you a good mark for this kind of anwer in his econ 10 course.

Bottom line: No more AFK cloaking (with no additional constraints on ratting income) then a higher rate of inflation. And we'd almost surely see that in PLEX prices too.

Just because the real goods that you receive can be sold for an increase in ISK in your wallet does not mean that real goods were not added to the economy. Mining is no different. For every bounty, their is also an addition of loot and salvage to counter that money supply increase. Except for the drone lands, of course.

We are not talking about an acceleration in the inflation rate. We are only talking about the increase in money supply due to bounties and Concord payments. Technically, since wormholes do not add ISK directly and only provide goods, I must agree that wormholes do not apply, but incursions do pay out ISK. Let's say that incursions pays 500 ISK per hour into the economy while ratting pays 100 ISK per hour into the economy with all interruptions considered. If removal of AFK cloaking increases the ratting payouts to 120 ISK per hour, then the total money supply increase increases from 700 to 720 and the effect on inflation is small. My numbers are arbitrary, but I do believe that incursions brings a very large amount of ISK into the economy compared to ratting, according to my sources (rumors) which seem accurate by my own experience.

So I think that your conclusions are a bit off, and that Greg would not appreciate you speaking for him. I do agree that PLEX should follow inflation of ISK wrt inflation of the dollar.

Added: It is noted that loot and salvage does not usually compare with the value of bounties so perhaps increasing the value of loot and salvage should be considered in order to directly balance the increase in money supply due to ratting bounties, whatever the levels are.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#4077 - 2013-12-21 02:24:02 UTC
This thread has since long become a discussion on AFK cloaking (and Local) and as such has become just that what the OP of this thread was trying to avoid (there are plenty on the subject, here they are, no need to start a new one)
As it has been winding down in an endless spiral of the same repetitive arguments over and over again, it gets a lock.

There are other threads on the same subject, here's a list....

The rules:
16. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.

As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)