Player Features and Ideas Discussion

You are making a very strong case for why AWOXing is a good thing.

I see no benefit denying having cloaky cyno alts. I use them on occasion to help move caps to benefit my allies.

I have not, however, been involved in a hot drop with them.

Two reasons for that, as others have made clear in different words already.

1. I don't find this fits my play style. I really don't have the time to cloaky camp a system for hours on end, it's too tedious and unrewarding for the required use of a system running a game client continuously. I would be more willing to running a boosting operation in a mining system AFK, if I could spare the game hardware. At least THAT benefits my corp directly, rather than possibly confusing someone else into not playing.

2. How do you hot drop a target, assuming number 1 did not exist already, that can reliably avoid you? It really does take a screw up on their part to even create an opportunity in the first place, let alone getting a kill.

As to your bonus, why would a PvE pilot who had safed up, suddenly not notice the new bubbles outside their safe area when they undocked again?
Bubbles at the belts? So, you would assume that mining and ratting ships don't scout areas before going in?

You are making more effort to catch these PvE targets, and who knows, you may be teaching some a few hard lessons, but ultimately these traps only work if the pilot screws up, and doesn't take precautions.

This is the overriding point that the anti-local and any cloaking people just don't get.

The best possible situation you can have is the one that already exists: you can PVE in null sec but you have to be on the ball and think ahead to prevent isk-costing losses. you can hunt PVErs in null sec, but you have to get lucky (such as jumping into system when a pve battleship is scrammed in a haven of forsaken hub) or be exceptionally crafty (such as using wormholes, soft or hard awoxxing techniques like the very cool "blue sabre undocking in a ratting system and bubbling station before neutral comes into system" trick, login style traps ect.

Local doesn't make null pve too safe, it makes it just safe enough to be viable. Take that away and you repeat CCPs military upgrade nerf mistake (which sent null pve pilots packing to do incursions in empire). The goal should be MORE pve type players in null (because with more of them, you have a higher chance of someone making a mistake and thus dying).

I think the remove local and anti afk cloaking people have good intentions (like ccp had with various game changes that ended up doing the opposite of what they intended lol), but unfortunately they seem to be blinded by what they think they want rather than seeing what would most likely happen.

How incredibly short sighted can one be?

How useful is an intel channel for a wormhole that pops up in your ratting system? The whole idea that holding sov and thus having an intel channel (which people might not even report in) is enough to keep people PVEing in a null sec with no local but that still has instantly warpable anomalies, warp-cloak capable ships and cynos is beyond ridiculas.

And again, what is to keep people in null rather than (as with other changes) going back to high sec?

I know you think this is a good idea. It isn't. If everyone were like you (which means you'd then be reliably able to predict the outcome of the changes you want) that would be different. But the fact is, people are different, most of them would not pve in null under a system you'd propose and CCP would be insane to ever develop your ideas.

Don't fix something that isn't broken.

As I said, short sighted. Yes, they make jmore effort. That's good.

Why aren't there more of them?

because human nature didctates that people will follow the path of least resistance. Your ideas increase effort (resistance) in null. The end result is fewer people in null just like so few people go to or live in wormholes. This is bad for the game.



The system may be ugly, but it works enough to keep enough people in null pveing and putting their ships at SOME risk as opposed to the near riskless pve players spewing isk into the eve economy for very little risk.

And that's the point. The part you don't understand. People are playing a video game. most of those people aren't like us (that pve in null or live in wormholes). That's fine, but don't advocate changes to the game with would make even fewer of us be in null sec.



I'm quoting this to show how purely insane it is. you're advocating the destruction of null because.....ccp is destroying null already...

That makes no sense. They nerfed my mach's tracking enhancers (which IS costing me isk) and are going to nerf my beloved mach (blessed be it's name lol) further in the future. you don't see me saying "ccp should screw over null more because ccp hurt my feelings",

That's just crazy. You are posting from a position of emotion rather than reason. That's not good.

You know what? I am just going to lay it out there how I react to current and proposed null conditions. Many other players react similarly.

Given current mechanics, if there is a red in local of unknown ship type, I switch to a Cov Ops and scan the system. If I don't find him, I assume that he is cloaked and monitor the situation. If I determine that he is inactive or that I will not be able to get a scan on him or catch him, then I evaluate either moving to a different system. If it is not safe to move to a different system, then I log off. Eve is less valuable to me and I do something else. If I find myself not playing Eve for extended periods of time, I let my subscription terminate and CCP loses money. Simple as that. Hunt, assess, adapt, log-off, un-sub.

If local did not exist, the gates would have to be manually secured and reported. If I could not be sure that all neuts entering the constellation were reported, then the risk of pve operations would be entirely unacceptable, and I would not undock any pve assets; no exceptions. Most likely, the risk outside high sec would be far too great, and all operations would be immediately and permanently moved to high sec or to wormhole space, free from cynos and supers.

The Key Words are: "Free from cynos and supers." Even when local is gone, the key issues remain the same: cloaked threat of bridges/hotdrops. Wormholes don't have those issues and they are fine despite the loss of local.

A lot of people would accept either high sec or wormholes, and would prefer to simply let their subs end. Without local, you would quickly see the end of Eve Online. As subs dropped, interest would drop leading to more subs drop; in a downward spiral. No good can come of dropping local in known space until after either supers or both jump drives and bridges are removed from the game.

I think the "nerf local" people here miss some points.

WH space works for the people that live in WH space, WH space isn't for everyone, otherwise everyone would have moved there. WH space doesn't have a lot of the threats that null sec and low sec and even high sec does, null sec ones being hot drops, super caps, large fleets (blobbing) and cloaky camps are kind of pointless in WH space. It does have the problem of no medical station and no JCs. It's a case of some people like the mechanic of WHs. Some don't. Don't think that just because something works for WHs, it will work for everything else.

As far as mining in ventures, again, some like it, most don't, just because you like it, doesn't mean everyone else will, the same goes for using PvP fit fleets for PvE, this fails on two counts, first is, a lot of people who play the PvE side of the game, like to fit for PvE, they like active shield tanks, missiles, fitting for max dps and enough tank to do the PvE stuff they want to do, the second is it doesn't matter, PvP is about planning, PvPers want to win so they engage what they can kill, someone in a PvP fit fleet doing PvE will still die because the gankers (people who warp/hot drop in on them) will not have the rat aggro on them straight away, and they are always going to bring in more than the PvE fleet can handle because they want to win. The only way a fleet doing PvE can handle this is with baiting, ie, doing there own cloaky fleet or hotdrop.

I do think that the way local is done needs a bit of an update but I don't agree that removing people flying around cloaked from any form of detection with current game mechanics can be done without majorly upsetting game balance.

On top of this, Nikk's proposed change will favor NBSI space over NRDS even more, think about it, all someone camped in NRDS space will have to do to see local is create a fresh alt, sit in an NPC corp and fly into the system he wants to watch local in. This will favor big pure PvP blobbers like Goons even more. This is what both most players of eve and CCP don't want (remember moon mining nerf sending Test broke and drying up Goons isk suppy). NRDS people are willing to share their space with others provided they don't shoot other NRDS people, so should be encouraged if anything (most are happy with things the way they are), not nerfed.

Lame tactics like cloaky camping (for days) and logging off in your target system then logging back on again 15 mins later are really bottom feeder PvP tactics, they are for those who can't get kills engaging other PvPers, have ships too expensive to risk in real pvp or just plain suck at the game. They are a crutch. People who do the logging game have auto-warp, yer, it's outside of the game, they are a known danger, but they don't shut down PvE and industry activities like campers do.

Campers use the fact that people in system don't know if they are active or afk to annoy their targets. However they aren't really a problem on their own, people just use other systems and ways of doing things that mask their activity. The problem comes when there are lots of them, shutting down entire pockets by camping every system in the pocket. This starts interfering with people's game play and can depopulate systems with people clone jumping back to high sec until the problem is gone.

Lets get a few things straight, my main characters have never lost any ships to campers and I don't see many people lose ships to campers ether. Camping and logging aren't great pvp tactics, frankly it sucks, they get a few kills but far less than most active fleet pvpers. Campers are the number one reason why a lot of PvEers stay in high sec, after all, who wants to log on just to find can't do what they want to do because some clown hasn't logged off his hostile character.

Most of all, cloaking camper's or AFK cloaker's argument contradicts itself, they say an AFK cloaker has never killed anyone because he/she is AFK. If this is true, the cloaker has no reason to stay logged into the game, after all it's exactly the same, an offline character has never killed anyone ether.

If this statement is false, as is the case in EvE, then a cloaky camper (AFK cloaker) is just as dangerous as any other active character and come from appearing AFK to being active and deadly before his/her target can take defensive actions outside of being cloaked, in station/POS bubble or simply not being in the same system as the cloaker.

This makes being AFK cloaked for days a valid, but not very effective tactic, can anyone name any other game where a valid (botting isn't valid) PvP tactic that involves a character online for days without the player being at the keyboard.

Yes.

But the point is: that tactic is de facto the only viable, the only potential danger in such 0.0 systems. People is forced to use it becuase of this, not because they consider it's effective or fun. Scale down the chance to make those systems 100% safe in a cheap and easy way and you'll see less people AFK camping and hotdropping and more people coming in HAC gangs.

WH holder can also lock and secure their systems. The huge difference is that their safety involve daily effort to scan, patrol, hunting intruders, collapse WH; involve using specialized ships, modules and skills. Involve active gameplay. For sov null is all based on local and stay docked. No skill, no ship, no modules, no effort, no game knowlege. Only local.

So, you are saying the additional reward levels don't compensate for the need to fit properly.

You expect to use high sec fittings, against null sec rewards, and have the least risk in the game.

Yeah... our rewards will be fine with that outlook....

cue flushing noise...

so... basically what you forum-pvpers are saying... is that... EVE is harsh and undocked you often feel unsafe?

Allow me to respond in the way you (should) understand: *clear throat* HTFU. Welcome to EVE. Can I have your stuff?