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AFK Cloaking Collection Thread

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Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3621 - 2013-12-03 19:54:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Teckos Pech wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:

The instant that you click on that client, you would be warped back to your previous location.


Yes, the anomaly I previously went AFK in. I'd warp in and see if anyone was doing that anomaly. I they are, tackle them and light cyno.

If not, then wait and get the AFK tag again and go AFK (or switch to another client) and come back later.

Eventually, I'll catch somebody and then we'll get the forum crying again.

Edit:
To be perfectly clear, I'd be using the AFK flag/warp to a deadspace mechanice, as form of sheep's clothing. Hoping some scrub would undock and start running an anomaly. I'd come back and hit d-scan in the direction of the anomaly which would activate my warp drive....see how I could use your mechanic to actually try and subvert your feeling of less uncertainty because I have that AFK tag next to my name.

Oh, and I get to watch netflix too...either on my computer on the other screen or more comfortably on the couch in my office at home where I have the flat screen 2 steps from my PC (i.e. I could see local from the couch too). Not a bad way to spend the a rainy Sunday hoping to catch somebody who let the AFK tag lul them into a false sense of security.

And once it goes past 4pm I'd bust out the scotch too. Make it a really nice day.

Oh and look, I'm i a coalition with enough people where they could mount such a campaign probably indefinitely. And they are the type of guys to do just that to show how bad a bad mechanic can be....why do you think the CFC is using domis now? They want to get across the point that drone assist is a dubious mechanic.

You should get into the habit of reading the entire post before responding to just one sentence of it. I already explained why there would never be anyone at the last anomaly that you were at before getting the afk tag and getting warped to a decloaking deadspace a mere million kms away. Read before you post.

Added: You are also very presumptious to assume that anyone is crying here. Much like the vain imaginations of having a big effect on Eve by AFK cloaking, these ideas in your head do not reflect the reality that everyone is just moving to the next system and moving to the next post. The tears are a lie.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Kenpo
The Guardians of the Beam
#3622 - 2013-12-03 19:57:29 UTC
Colostomy and Catheters, the answer to all AFK problems, never be AFK again Shocked

Caution, rubber gloves and faceshield required when handling this equipment.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3623 - 2013-12-03 20:14:03 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
So you're saying that's not your preference, that's functionally the only way to remove AFK Cloaking?
So removal of the cloak module would still result in AFK cloaking?
My response, answered those questions.

I think we can all see that neither side will agree here and it seems to be leading to personal insults. Time to tone it down chaps.

If I may...

I believe the point has been made, that creating fear and uncertainty in EVE does not require the use of a cloaking module.
The cloak is simply a popular option, in this context, hardly the only one available.

It is the fear and uncertainty that is being objected to, regardless of how one phrases it.
I hardly believe anyone genuinely cares about whether another player is AFK, except that this player might become a threat with no other warning than already is present.
(They being listed already in local)

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3624 - 2013-12-03 20:18:40 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:


Also, having the AFK tag, you would have been warped to within 1 million km of your previous location to a deadspace location with a decloaking marker, so you would show on dscan. Everyone would know what ship you were in and about where your last location was with a couple of dscans. We could simply choose to operate in locations greater than a couple million kms of you and know that you would not be warped back to our anomalies.


Andy, honestly now...if I you can't warp to me and you can't kill me. And I'm now visible on D-scan...couldn't I, in theory come back to my keyboard at any time?

Wouldn't you just be exacerbating the AFK cloaking problem?

Now you know for sure I'm in a covert ops type ship which would increase the probability I have a covert ops cloak. Before I could have been a schmoe in a lowly T1 frig with a prototype cloak and no cyno just trying to deny your resources. But now you see I'm in a ship that can fit a covert ops cyno....now even the most rational player (i.e. one not horrendously risk averse) would have to revise upwards his probability estimate that I have a covert ops cyno.

Under the current mechanic you log in and see my mug in local and go "****, there is that Teckos doofus again." You undock, drop probes and scan around. Nada. Okay, you think, "That boner is probably cloaked....Dammit!" But you don't know if I have a cyno fit or not. I could be in some cheap T1 frig (a navitas lets say) with just a prototype cloaking device. Or, I could have a Helios with a covert ops cloak and cyno.

Now, NIRVANA!!!!! CCP read our mega monster thread here and said, "Lets implement Andy's Idea, and well shut those complainers up."

You undock and still there is my mug in local. You mutter to yourself, "Jesus Christ of a ****ing pogo stick this guy wont give up! Oh wait, he went AFK there's the tag." So you undock you drop probes again so you can scan the whole system. You get the reults back, "****! Helios."

Given this new information it becomes much, much more likely I'm packing a covert ops cyno.

Now you'll really stay docked.

So from a resource denial aspect, AFK cloaking becomes even worse. And since you already assume I have a covert ops cyno...now you know for a fact I'm flying a ship that can fit one.

See where this is going.

Law of unintended consequences and all that.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3625 - 2013-12-03 20:18:51 UTC
I have no ISK.

I have no ISK because I can't rat.

I can't rat because someone is AFK.

That AFK person is 124j away from my ratting system in a freighter.

THAT FREIGHTER MUST BE SEVERELY PUNISHED.

Sorry. I had to.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3626 - 2013-12-03 20:23:22 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:

You should get into the habit of reading the entire post before responding to just one sentence of it. I already explained why there would never be anyone at the last anomaly that you were at before getting the afk tag and getting warped to a decloaking deadspace a mere million kms away. Read before you post.


Yes, you are correct. I saw you added the "uncloaked" aspect. I don't recall that being part of the original idea.

So I modified my response. I believe it destroys what I'm going to call the Andy-Lucas AFK tag solution.

It will make AFK cloaking for resource denial even more effective. Expect all the best ratting systems to be perma-camped by 100% safe cloakers if this "solution" ever gets implemented.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3627 - 2013-12-03 20:24:17 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I have no ISK.

I have no ISK because I can't rat.

I can't rat because someone is AFK.

That AFK person is 124j away from my ratting system in a freighter.

THAT FREIGHTER MUST BE SEVERELY PUNISHED.

Sorry. I had to.


Which is also why the proposed auto-log and AFK flag solutions are also bad.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3628 - 2013-12-03 20:34:50 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I have no ISK.

I have no ISK because I can't rat.

I can't rat because someone is AFK.

That AFK person is 124j away from my ratting system in a freighter.

THAT FREIGHTER MUST BE SEVERELY PUNISHED.

Sorry. I had to.


Which is also why the proposed auto-log and AFK flag solutions are also bad.

What?

You can't be active and make isk because someone is 124 jumps away?

You don't make much sense to this topic anylonger.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3629 - 2013-12-03 20:36:36 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:


Also, having the AFK tag, you would have been warped to within 1 million km of your previous location to a deadspace location with a decloaking marker, so you would show on dscan. Everyone would know what ship you were in and about where your last location was with a couple of dscans. We could simply choose to operate in locations greater than a couple million kms of you and know that you would not be warped back to our anomalies.


Andy, honestly now...if I you can't warp to me and you can't kill me. And I'm now visible on D-scan...couldn't I, in theory come back to my keyboard at any time?

Wouldn't you just be exacerbating the AFK cloaking problem?

Now you know for sure I'm in a covert ops type ship which would increase the probability I have a covert ops cloak. Before I could have been a schmoe in a lowly T1 frig with a prototype cloak and no cyno just trying to deny your resources. But now you see I'm in a ship that can fit a covert ops cyno....now even the most rational player (i.e. one not horrendously risk averse) would have to revise upwards his probability estimate that I have a covert ops cyno.

Under the current mechanic you log in and see my mug in local and go "****, there is that Teckos doofus again." You undock, drop probes and scan around. Nada. Okay, you think, "That boner is probably cloaked....Dammit!" But you don't know if I have a cyno fit or not. I could be in some cheap T1 frig (a navitas lets say) with just a prototype cloaking device. Or, I could have a Helios with a covert ops cloak and cyno.

Now, NIRVANA!!!!! CCP read our mega monster thread here and said, "Lets implement Andy's Idea, and well shut those complainers up."

You undock and still there is my mug in local. You mutter to yourself, "Jesus Christ of a ****ing pogo stick this guy wont give up! Oh wait, he went AFK there's the tag." So you undock you drop probes again so you can scan the whole system. You get the reults back, "****! Helios."

Given this new information it becomes much, much more likely I'm packing a covert ops cyno.

Now you'll really stay docked.

So from a resource denial aspect, AFK cloaking becomes even worse. And since you already assume I have a covert ops cyno...now you know for a fact I'm flying a ship that can fit one.

See where this is going.

Law of unintended consequences and all that.

Love your commentary!

We would see your ship type, true. And then you would be like, omg wtf #@$%#, Did I let my ship go AFK again?! Then you would learn your lesson about letting your ship go AFK, and you would try to keep your client active with a ship spin or something every half hour.

For the pve side, our scouts would see you as you entered each system, and your ship would be reported, not just your ship type. Our pve scouts would remain active because we would be watching the AFK timer as closely as we were watching for gate flashes, reds in local, and signs of anomalous decloaks, to name a few. Anyone who uses a scout but does not notice the AFK timer obviously was also not paying attention to any other valuable intel available through that client either.

So hopefully, you would tell yourself after the AFK tag, "Alright, lesson learned. I will try harder to avoid allowing my client from going neglected for half an hour and getting the AFK tag again." Or you might come to the forums with your tears about how hard it is to cloaky camp a system with letting your client go for half an hour without so much as a single click on it. (Here "you" is meant generically)

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3630 - 2013-12-03 20:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Here's how you solve the AFK cloaking problem:

Convert all nullsec systems to 1.0 with CONCORD as the sov holder.

Now you can rat in peace and perfect safety where nobody will hotdrop you ever.

Honestly. People move out to nullsec where the idea is to fight against each other and disrupt each other, only to complain about people disrupting their activities and fighting them (or being able to fight them).

Also.. "you should have learned your lesson"? Are we all eight years old again?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3631 - 2013-12-03 20:40:49 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Here's how you solve the AFK cloaking problem:

Convert all nullsec systems to 1.0 with CONCORD as the sov holder.

Now you can rat in peace and perfect safety where nobody will hotdrop you ever.

Honestly. People move out to nullsec where the idea is to fight against each other and disrupt each other, only to complain about people disrupting their activities and fighting them (or being able to fight them).


Was thinking this earlier this morning too....

I think it is not unfair to say an idea that gives additional information to a player and removes uncertainty, in null, is like making null more like high sec.

Can we have multiple outposts in a system too?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3632 - 2013-12-03 20:43:29 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Here's how you solve the AFK cloaking problem:

Convert all nullsec systems to 1.0 with CONCORD as the sov holder.

Now you can rat in peace and perfect safety where nobody will hotdrop you ever.

Honestly. People move out to nullsec where the idea is to fight against each other and disrupt each other, only to complain about people disrupting their activities and fighting them (or being able to fight them).


Was thinking this earlier this morning too....

I think it is not unfair to say an idea that gives additional information to a player and removes uncertainty, in null, is like making null more like high sec.

Can we have multiple outposts in a system too?


Maybe we should add special "ratting agents" that create instanced anomalies that only the player who got the ratting mission can access.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#3633 - 2013-12-03 20:47:11 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Here's how you solve the AFK cloaking problem:

Convert all nullsec systems to 1.0 with CONCORD as the sov holder.

Now you can rat in peace and perfect safety where nobody will hotdrop you ever.

Honestly. People move out to nullsec where the idea is to fight against each other and disrupt each other, only to complain about people disrupting their activities and fighting them (or being able to fight them).


Was thinking this earlier this morning too....

I think it is not unfair to say an idea that gives additional information to a player and removes uncertainty, in null, is like making null more like high sec.

Can we have multiple outposts in a system too?


Maybe we should add special "ratting agents" that create instanced anomalies that only the player who got the ratting mission can access.
And arenas, where only special pilots get to fight in. By consent, obviously.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3634 - 2013-12-03 20:47:18 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:

Love your commentary!

We would see your ship type, true. And then you would be like, omg wtf #@$%#, Did I let my ship go AFK again?! Then you would learn your lesson about letting your ship go AFK, and you would try to keep your client active with a ship spin or something every half hour.

For the pve side, our scouts would see you as you entered each system, and your ship would be reported, not just your ship type. Our pve scouts would remain active because we would be watching the AFK timer as closely as we were watching for gate flashes, reds in local, and signs of anomalous decloaks, to name a few. Anyone who uses a scout but does not notice the AFK timer obviously was also not paying attention to any other valuable intel available through that client either.

So hopefully, you would tell yourself after the AFK tag, "Alright, lesson learned. I will try harder to avoid allowing my client from going neglected for half an hour and getting the AFK tag again." Or you might come to the forums with your tears about how hard it is to cloaky camp a system with letting your client go for half an hour without so much as a single click on it. (Here "you" is meant generically)


Actually no. I'd be doing it on purpose, going AFK that is...much like now. In fact, I'd suggest to the larger alliances/coalitions, put more AFK cloakers in systems for resource denial.

Have a hictor/dictor go AFK off the station. Have one for every POS.

Now you'll have no safe havens if do undock and start ratting or mining in null.

Once in place you'd really shut that system down for ratting. Heck even a reaction system could be shut down.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3635 - 2013-12-03 20:53:20 UTC
That sounds like the most amazing thing ever. The tears from this idea being turned into a monster and unleashed back upon its creators... why, they'd water the desert. They'd make Mars turn green with lush plant life.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3636 - 2013-12-03 20:57:16 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
...For the pve side, our scouts would see you as you entered each system, and your ship would be reported, not just your ship type. Our pve scouts would remain active because we would be watching the AFK timer as closely as we were watching for gate flashes, reds in local, and signs of anomalous decloaks, to name a few. Anyone who uses a scout but does not notice the AFK timer obviously was also not paying attention to any other valuable intel available through that client either.

So hopefully, you would tell yourself after the AFK tag, "Alright, lesson learned. I will try harder to avoid allowing my client from going neglected for half an hour and getting the AFK tag again." Or you might come to the forums with your tears about how hard it is to cloaky camp a system with letting your client go for half an hour without so much as a single click on it. (Here "you" is meant generically)


So, you are going to have active scouts watching the gates closely enough to report actual ship models, not simply types...

Clearly, you seem willing to commit players to making an effort.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Kenpo
The Guardians of the Beam
#3637 - 2013-12-03 20:58:59 UTC
So ummmm where do you get an AFK cloak from anyway? Big smile

Caution, rubber gloves and faceshield required when handling this equipment.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3638 - 2013-12-03 21:03:58 UTC
Kenpo wrote:
So ummmm where do you get an AFK cloak from anyway? Big smile

I think you need to trade a PLEX for one... ask Jimmy the Ganker in Jita chat, he'll message you with a meeting location to make the swap....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3639 - 2013-12-03 21:33:55 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:

Love your commentary!

We would see your ship type, true. And then you would be like, omg wtf #@$%#, Did I let my ship go AFK again?! Then you would learn your lesson about letting your ship go AFK, and you would try to keep your client active with a ship spin or something every half hour.

For the pve side, our scouts would see you as you entered each system, and your ship would be reported, not just your ship type. Our pve scouts would remain active because we would be watching the AFK timer as closely as we were watching for gate flashes, reds in local, and signs of anomalous decloaks, to name a few. Anyone who uses a scout but does not notice the AFK timer obviously was also not paying attention to any other valuable intel available through that client either.

So hopefully, you would tell yourself after the AFK tag, "Alright, lesson learned. I will try harder to avoid allowing my client from going neglected for half an hour and getting the AFK tag again." Or you might come to the forums with your tears about how hard it is to cloaky camp a system with letting your client go for half an hour without so much as a single click on it. (Here "you" is meant generically)


Actually no. I'd be doing it on purpose, going AFK that is...much like now. In fact, I'd suggest to the larger alliances/coalitions, put more AFK cloakers in systems for resource denial.

Have a hictor/dictor go AFK off the station. Have one for every POS.

Now you'll have no safe havens if do undock and start ratting or mining in null.

Once in place you'd really shut that system down for ratting. Heck even a reaction system could be shut down.

If you had an AFK dictor off the station and off of each pos, I estimate that you would need at least half a dozen accounts for every system just to try to take advantage of the AFK mechanic. Experienced pve pilots who remained in system would be warping out to a safe spot as soon as any red ship switched from AFK to active. From the safe spot perch, the station or pos would be dscanned before it was warped to. Also, any dictors trying to bubble a pos would have the problem that their bubble would have to be outside the pos and would only catch a small portion of any of the warp-in vectors. He would also have to battle pos's setup with lots of small guns.

Pilots in null don't mind the risk. We simply don't like immune targets projecting potentially immense forces via cyno capability for the control of entire systems with a solo puny frigate. If it at least required 6 ships to successfully project the cyno, then entire systems could only be shutdown by groups of 6 or more.

We prefer that the effort required to gain sovereignty also require similar effort to counter or cancel the effects and benefits of sov. We prefer that the solo cloaky be put back in its place by countering the cyno with mechanics which do not favor the pve-hunting aggressor so much. Let them roam in gangs and target pvp assets more easily. Let sovereignty target roaming pvp gangs more easily with null sec gate guns, etc.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3640 - 2013-12-03 21:37:34 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
We prefer that the effort required to gain sovereignty also require similar effort to counter or cancel the effects and benefits of sov. We prefer that the solo cloaky be put back in its place by countering the cyno with mechanics which do not favor the pve-hunting aggressor so much. Let them roam in gangs and target pvp assets more easily. Let sovereignty target roaming pvp gangs more easily with null sec gate guns, etc.

That is the prettiest I have ever heard someone express the sentiment...

Blob or GTFO is so crude by comparison...

And really, who actually likes asymmetrical warfare anyhow?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...