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AFK Cloaking Collection Thread

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3521 - 2013-12-02 20:33:20 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I am saying the changes you seek are not necessary, the game is balanced to be exactly the way it is.

Doesn't change the fact that it can still be change to make the game better.

And that's what we want. We want to have more balance in the game.


Changing a game in your favor alone is not an improvement in balance, unless you are arguing the game is currently unbalanced and that it has been that way for more than 5 years and that the CCP Devs know this and are just bad at their jobs.

Are you making that argument?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3522 - 2013-12-02 20:40:03 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I am saying the changes you seek are not necessary, the game is balanced to be exactly the way it is.

Doesn't change the fact that it can still be change to make the game better.

And that's what we want. We want to have more balance in the game.


Changing a game in your favor alone is not an improvement in balance, unless you are arguing the game is currently unbalanced and that it has been that way for more than 5 years and that the CCP Devs know this and are just bad at their jobs.

Are you making that argument?

So changing the game to your favour is any better?

Yes, the game is unbalanced when it comes to the afk thingie as the game gives benefits to players who doesn't play the game.

How is that balanced and fair?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3523 - 2013-12-02 20:41:34 UTC
What benefits does the game give to AFK players, exactly?

Don't deflect the question or twist it. Just answer it in a straightforward fashion.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3524 - 2013-12-02 20:42:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I am saying the changes you seek are not necessary, the game is balanced to be exactly the way it is.

Doesn't change the fact that it can still be change to make the game better.

And that's what we want. We want to have more balance in the game.


Changing a game in your favor alone is not an improvement in balance, unless you are arguing the game is currently unbalanced and that it has been that way for more than 5 years and that the CCP Devs know this and are just bad at their jobs.

Are you making that argument?

So changing the game to your favour is any better?

Yes, the game is unbalanced when it comes to the afk thingie as the game gives benefits to players who doesn't play the game.

How is that balanced and fair?


I have not suggested any such thing.

Thanks for the bump.

Edit: Good to know you think CCP is doing a bad job too. Why you think people who do a bad job will suddenly do a good job after years of failing is an incredible display of faith.

And why do you play a game where the Devs get it wrong year after year in your view.

Note: Since you love to twist what I write: I think the game is currently balanced between local and AFK cloaking.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3525 - 2013-12-02 20:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
What benefits does the game give to AFK players, exactly?

Don't deflect the question or twist it. Just answer it in a straightforward fashion.

It pushes out fear and risks while it also makes peoples work their asses off for someone that might not even play the game. Again, how is that fair?

Just to take an example. Would you like it that i could spy on you with a hidden camera ingame that streams that to a webpage while not playing the game so i could give intels to my other corp / alliance mates out of game via TeamSpeak?

Would that be fair?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3526 - 2013-12-02 20:50:01 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I am saying the changes you seek are not necessary, the game is balanced to be exactly the way it is.

Doesn't change the fact that it can still be change to make the game better.

And that's what we want. We want to have more balance in the game.


Changing a game in your favor alone is not an improvement in balance, unless you are arguing the game is currently unbalanced and that it has been that way for more than 5 years and that the CCP Devs know this and are just bad at their jobs.

Are you making that argument?

So changing the game to your favour is any better?

Yes, the game is unbalanced when it comes to the afk thingie as the game gives benefits to players who doesn't play the game.

How is that balanced and fair?

Myself, and I daresay Teckos, are not arguing for a change in balance.

We are suggesting a penalty mixed with a new opportunity on both sides.

We are not removing local, which is often thrown about like an absurd rag doll of a straw man indeed.
We are suggesting changes, so that effort is not only required for certain types of intel, but goes so far as to offer new types not currently even found in the game.

But this new intel comes at a price, no longer would a cloak offer such absolute security. By exposing it to hostile awareness, hostile weapons certainly follow.
And with new power, comes hand in hand new responsibility to use it wisely. While noone would need to hunt cloaked ships, a lesser degree of effort would be needed to know security from them, an effort that could be opposed by those set with hostile intent.

The stalemate is broken, and whosoever made the grandest effort would claim the prize.

We but suggest details, mine slightly different than Teckos, but in the end it would be the devs who decided what and how, not us.
If you lack faith in their judgement, I have no balm to soothe your concerns to offer.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3527 - 2013-12-02 20:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
NightmareX wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
What benefits does the game give to AFK players, exactly?

Don't deflect the question or twist it. Just answer it in a straightforward fashion.

It pushes out fear and risks while it also makes peoples work their asses off for someone that might not even play the game. Again, how is that fair?

Just to take an example. Would you like it that i could spy on you with a hidden camera ingame that streams that to a webpage while not playing the game so i could give intels to my other corp / alliance mates out of game via TeamSpeak?

Would that be fair?


I told you "don't deflect the question or twist it" and you just did both.

Now answer me: What benefits does the game give to AFK players?

Don't strawman me this time either.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3528 - 2013-12-02 20:51:59 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
What benefits does the game give to AFK players, exactly?

Don't deflect the question or twist it. Just answer it in a straightforward fashion.

It pushes out fear and risks while it also makes peoples work their asses off for someone that might not even play the game. Again, how is that fair?

Just to take an example. Would you like it that i could spy on you with a hidden camera ingame that streams that to a webpage while not playing the game so i could give intels to my other corp / alliance mates out of game via TeamSpeak?

Would that be fair?

What makes you think this does not happen?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3529 - 2013-12-02 20:54:40 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:

I asked you to acknowledge that the solo cloaky was easy to deal with. I did not ask you to show evidence that a solo cloaky can win against non-pvp fits or against non-pvp players. Yes, the solo cloaky can prevail if the target does not fight it well. But no, the solo cloaky is not a significant threat by itself.

A single omni-tanked domi with a flight of hobgoblins and another flight of garde IIs (depending on distance) can pop the cloaky frigate fast.

Get a group of 3-5 ships together with some anti-frigate capabilities and an omni-resist setup and that solo frigate will find pop before he can say "Uncle." So, will you now please concede that the solo cloaky is a very manageable threat when the cyno is NOT an option. And please don't begin your response again with, "sorry, I disagree," because that only makes it look like you think solo cloaks without cynos are immense threats by themselves.


I don't disaggree on the domi comment....now if you had 4 more guys in such fits, and with MJDs....what then? A small BLOPs gang is out of luck. Even a medium one might have issues with such a group depending on their tactics (i.e. not too close together so that only one domi can be tackled, and the rest could just use sentries to blap the SBs). In other words, that tactic can work even against a "cyno threat".

Granted if a super comes through the cyno you are screwed, but again we have to look at the probabilities here. How frequently does that occur? I'm going to guess it isn't that frequent.

Yes, they could bridge in 100 guys too. All in the new SoE cruisers and just wipe the floor with you. Again, probably not that likely.

And also we have to have that AFK cloaker being active. If you got 4 guys along with you burning through anomalies and he is AFK, even better.

My basic point is, the same tactic that can work against a solo cloaker can work against a larger BLOPs gang. And when we consider the various probabilities involved it is, IMO, a viable counter.

For example, if the probability that the guy is not AFK is 0.8 and that he has a big BLOPs gang is also 0.8, then the actual probability you'd use is 0.64. If the probabilities are 0.5 and 0.5 then probability of you getting dropped is now 0.25. And use the in-game map, is there are suspicious looking orange circle on the map indicating a possible BLOPs team? How many pilots in that system on average? Would sending a scout there be a good idea? (Yeah probably). This could mitigate your risk even more. Even to zero (i.e. there is a sizable orange dot, the map says an average of 20 pilots...time to send the scout...uh-oh 23 guys in system and nobody showing even with probes). You know that guy in local in your ratting system is most likely active (why else have 23 guys one cyno out) and best strategy at this point is to not undock unless you can get even more guys in your ratting fleet.

I don't find any of the above unreasonable. And this is with the current mechanics. Can you know for certain that he is active? No, but you can get additional information (as above) that allows you to refine your initial probability assessments.

Or you could just assume the worse, stay docked, log off and go watch something on television.

Thank you for agreeing that it is the cyno which multiplies the threat of the solo cloaky immensely. Now I will show you how the probabilities scale vastly against the hotdrop target. IF I was the FC of a BLOPS gang of 6 stealth bombers, a falcon, and a BLOPS BS, and I saw 4 domi's in an anomaly in the same system as a stealth bomber with a covert cyno gen, I would immediately put out a call for more stealth bombers to log on and move to the staging system. I would increase the fleet to 12 SB, and I would have the Falcon refit to all mag ECM. As soon as I got the numbers, I would order the point and cyno for bridging. My SB would have at least two long points fiited to it and we would get at least two BS kills. So the tactic of 4 BS is likely to fail against my 12 stealth bombers, and the probability that I will drop 12 on you is assured to increase to 100% over a short period of time. In fact, given the presence of a target, the probability of me dropping you will rise to one (100%) for any pve fleet composition; the question is, "How long will it take me to get the right fleet together in order to assure an overwhelming win if I wasn't prepared to engage your fleet upon the first report?" Your other question is whether I will ever choose to engage you. SO on the one hand, your preparations will always eventually be overcome on my timetable, and on the other hand, your preparations my be wasted on an AFK cloaky. You can never know, but it is a safe bet that if you do not prepare, you will be attacked, and if you do prepare, your preparations will be overcome; all thanks to the cyno.

Now if you have a way of distinguishing between blue and red players on the Eve Universe players in space map, then please let me know, but otherwise it can be a very difficult matter to determine if an enemy blops gang is active. Even still, the covert cyno allows an FC to prepare the right fleet to take on any pve group from a position of complete safety to a position of cleared field and all cloaked up within a few precious seconds.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3530 - 2013-12-02 20:55:05 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

It pushes out fear and risks while it also makes peoples work their asses off for someone that might not even play the game. Again, how is that fair?

Just to take an example. Would you like it that i could spy on you with a hidden camera ingame that streams that to a webpage while not playing the game so i could give intels to my other corp / alliance mates out of game via TeamSpeak?

Would that be fair?

What makes you think this does not happen?


I believe Mad Ani does it, and quite popularly.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3531 - 2013-12-02 20:55:30 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Myself, and I daresay Teckos, are not arguing for a change in balance.

Then why are you arguing against an afk timer when that doesn't change anything in how we play the game and it doesn't hurt those who actually plays the game?

That solution is the easiest one and it's the best one as it just targets one type of players that isn't actively playing the game.

Why do things so difficult when we can solve the afk problem with a single solution ?

If you want to change local, then make a new topic about how and why you want to change local. This topic is about afk cloaking and how to solve the issues with that.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3532 - 2013-12-02 20:57:15 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
What benefits does the game give to AFK players, exactly?

Don't deflect the question or twist it. Just answer it in a straightforward fashion.

It pushes out fear and risks while it also makes peoples work their asses off for someone that might not even play the game. Again, how is that fair?

Just to take an example. Would you like it that i could spy on you with a hidden camera ingame that streams that to a webpage while not playing the game so i could give intels to my other corp / alliance mates out of game via TeamSpeak?

Would that be fair?


I told you "don't deflect the question or twist it" and you just did both.

Now answer me: What benefits does the game give to AFK players?

Don't strawman me this time either.

You didn't answer my question there. It's the same principle as the afk cloakers does now, they get benefits for not playing the game, so i gave another example on the same type of playing on why it's bad.

If you are ok that you as an afk cloaker gets benefits for not playing the game, then my solution with the hidden camera spying on you must be a genious idea for those who are not playing the game to. Right?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3533 - 2013-12-02 21:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I didn't answer your question because I quite frankly do not give a damn about it. I'm interested in knowing what benefits the game gives to someone who is AFK, a question which you still have not answered.

Now stop with the useless rhetoric, horrible logical fallacies and transparent stalling tactics. ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Unless, of course, you can't.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3534 - 2013-12-02 21:02:33 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I didn't answer your question because I quite frankly do not give a damn about it. I'm interested in knowing what benefits the game gives to someone who is AFK, a question which you still have not answered.

Now stop with the useless rhetoric, horrible logical fallacies and transparent stalling tactics. ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Unless, of course, you can't.

Ahh there we have it. You couldn't be bothered to answer it because i made my point and you doesn't want to answer it because you can't counterargument against it, because you know i'm right.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3535 - 2013-12-02 21:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
No, I couldn't be bothered to answer your question because you haven't yet been bothered to answer mine. All you've done is stall and try to distract.

You haven't actually made any points. You haven't actually said anything.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3536 - 2013-12-02 21:05:46 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
No, I couldn't be bothered to answer your question because you haven't yet been bothered to answer mine. All you've done is stall and try to distract.


I have answered yours and given you the reason why an afk timer is the best solution to solve the problem with afk cloaking. You have been trolling and talked the case with afk cloaking and how to solve it to something else.

So there is a reason why you might see it as not answered for you as i wont answer things that is not about afk cloaking.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3537 - 2013-12-02 21:25:15 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Myself, and I daresay Teckos, are not arguing for a change in balance.

Then why are you arguing against an afk timer when that doesn't change anything in how we play the game and it doesn't hurt those who actually plays the game?

That solution is the easiest one and it's the best one as it just targets one type of players that isn't actively playing the game.

Why do things so difficult when we can solve the afk problem with a single solution ?

If you want to change local, then make a new topic about how and why you want to change local. This topic is about afk cloaking and how to solve the issues with that.

Your claim that it doesn't hurt those who actually play the game, is in direct conflict with evidence to the contrary.

Now, you can of course claim anything you like, as claims carry no weight of proof.

As well, you would pretend that an AFK timer would not change the balance of the game.

So, which is true, out of the following two options possible?

A: The game is not balanced, the devs have known of this issue for years and left it like this. The AFK timer will fix this problem.

B: The game is balanced, but the devs will introduce this AFK timer because they will decide to shift the balance point in favor of those negatively affected by AFK behavior.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3538 - 2013-12-02 21:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Nikk Narrel wrote:
So, which is true, out of the following two options possible?

A: The game is not balanced, the devs have known of this issue for years and left it like this. The AFK timer will fix this problem.

B: The game is balanced, but the devs will introduce this AFK timer because they will decide to shift the balance point in favor of those negatively affected by AFK behavior.

The afk timer on other games have fixed the problems with afk players. Why wouldn't it fix the problem in EVE?

I'm just asking, because it have fixed the afk problem in every other games and it works. And it will work here to.

Do you see any issues or rants on the other game's forums about 'omg the afk timer is killing our game !1111oneoneeleven'?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3539 - 2013-12-02 21:37:51 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I didn't answer your question because I quite frankly do not give a damn about it. I'm interested in knowing what benefits the game gives to someone who is AFK, a question which you still have not answered.

Now stop with the useless rhetoric, horrible logical fallacies and transparent stalling tactics. ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Unless, of course, you can't.

I have answered your question countless times. Riskless system control via the potential for hotdrop using the cyno mechanism. Pretty strong benefits for zero risk if you ask me. See my previous post on how I would escalate my hotdrop fleet against any who thought to be brave by forming a small gang for pve ops.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3540 - 2013-12-02 21:47:41 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I didn't answer your question because I quite frankly do not give a damn about it. I'm interested in knowing what benefits the game gives to someone who is AFK, a question which you still have not answered.

Now stop with the useless rhetoric, horrible logical fallacies and transparent stalling tactics. ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Unless, of course, you can't.

I have answered your question countless times. Riskless system control via the potential for hotdrop using the cyno mechanism. Pretty strong benefits for zero risk if you ask me. See my previous post on how I would escalate my hotdrop fleet against any who thought to be brave by forming a small gang for pve ops.


You are also not the person I was asking, but thank you for whiteknighting on NightmareX's behalf.