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AFK Cloaking Collection Thread

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NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3401 - 2013-12-01 19:31:34 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
The only way to know if you're active is by being active too. Someone who's AFK doesn't know anything about you.

And the only way to see if you are afk is to be afk so the afk timer kicks in.

One thing shouldn't be in favour of the other.

So bottom line is, if you are active playing EVE, we can see that. If you are not playing EVE and are afk, we should see that.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3402 - 2013-12-01 19:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
If someone is afk, we should know it, it's that simple.


Why should you know it? Why are you entitled to know it - or anything at all?

If you are able to know if i'm active in EVE, we should be able to see if someone is afk to.

Why is one of that fine while the other thing is not fine?



Because handing out things for free is not good, this is what those who want an AFK tag are advocating. Free intel, intel they don't have to work for.

If the guy with a cloak is no longer AFK and finds out you are active: he worked for it. He found you on d-scan, wapred to your location, etc.

You want it handed to you by the client after doing...nothing to really earn it.

Yeah, you get free intel of me if i'm active in EVE. Why can't we get the same free intel that you are afk?

Again, you should not favour active players over the afk players. Everything should be even and balanced.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3403 - 2013-12-01 19:33:40 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Since the AFK cloaky can appear from complete invulnerability and invisibility as close as 2500m off any ship in space (outside a force field) and begin locking them up that same second, it seems only fair that those docked should be able to do the exact same thing. The comparison between AFK cloakers and AFK dockers has been made so many times, I say, why not let ships watch any point in their solar system and then undock to exactly that point in space instantly with no session timer so that they can start locking and lighting cynos instantly. Sounds fair right? We could even invent the undock probe wh generator to justify the concept in lore. (Too bad text doesn't show sarcasm very well. Maybe with this emoticon Roll ) .. or people could accept that being docked in station is fundamentally different than being cloaky in space.


No session timer? Ha, no. Maybe if you limited it to stealth bombers sure. Unless of course you want no session timer when you undock your carrier too.

Session timers can also be your friend. Which is why I have client set to show me the session timers.

Oh and no AFK cloaker can appear from complete invulnerability and invisibility as close as 2,500m. Has never, ever happened anywhere in the game and never will given current mechanics.

Why?

The pilot is AFK...can't deactivate the cloaking device. Can't lock. Can't shoot. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3404 - 2013-12-01 19:34:41 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
If someone is afk, we should know it, it's that simple.


Why should you know it? Why are you entitled to know it - or anything at all?

If you are able to know if i'm active in EVE, we should be able to see if someone is afk to.

Why is one of that fine while the other thing is not fine?



Because handing out things for free is not good, this is what those who want an AFK tag are advocating. Free intel, intel they don't have to work for.

If the guy with a cloak is no longer AFK and finds out you are active: he worked for it. He found you on d-scan, wapred to your location, etc.

You want it handed to you by the client after doing...nothing to really earn it.

Yeah, you get free intel of me if i'm active in EVE. Why can't we get the same free intel that you are afk?


The only free intel I get is from local...which you get too. Balance. If I'm AFK I don't even get that. To get more, I have to actually, you know, do something in game--i.e. not be AFK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3405 - 2013-12-01 19:36:14 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
The pilot is AFK...can't deactivate the cloaking device. Can't lock. Can't shoot. P

But how does the other players in system knows that?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3406 - 2013-12-01 19:38:55 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
[The only free intel I get is from local...which you get too. Balance. If I'm AFK I don't even get that. To get more, I have to actually, you know, do something in game--i.e. not be AFK.

Again, why should we not be able to see if someone is afk?

You that is active can see if someone is active pretty easy while we that are active and looking after someone in local that we might think is afk, we still have to look out for them until the afk timer have kicked in to be able to confirm if they are afk.

I'm not sure, but that's far from getting free intel dude.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3407 - 2013-12-01 19:39:12 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
The pilot is AFK...can't deactivate the cloaking device. Can't lock. Can't shoot. P

But how does the other players in system knows that?


Doesn't matter, it rebuts Andy's claim that an AFK cloaker can close in on a target while cloaked, deactivate the cloak, target and scram the target, and then light a cyno.

None of that can happen while the pilot is AFK. Ever. It is, literally, and impossible sequence of events.

So Andy's proposal for AFK dockers to undock with no session timer anywhere in system is fine...so long as the players that can take advantage of it are AFK--i.e. can never ever do it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3408 - 2013-12-01 19:39:36 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

Because handing out things for free is not good, this is what those who want an AFK tag are advocating. Free intel, intel they don't have to work for.
...
You want it handed to you by the client after doing...nothing to really earn it.

Really?
Let's go over everything that is free in Eve: Rookie ships, Basic ship insurance, Basic clone insurance, the overview, local, watchlist, contacts, skill points, datacores, PI, market data, ship data (cap, shields, armor, structure, module ranges), moon goo, gasp, and I am sure the list goes on and on but I think I have made my point. Free is good. Yes, free is good. Work is not an end in itself, and when things can be made easier, it is generally a good idea.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3409 - 2013-12-01 19:40:14 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
The pilot is AFK...can't deactivate the cloaking device. Can't lock. Can't shoot. P

But how does the other players in system knows that?


Doesn't matter, it rebuts Andy's claim that an AFK cloaker can close in on a target while cloaked, deactivate the cloak, target and scram the target, and then light a cyno.

None of that can happen while the pilot is AFK. Ever. It is, literally, and impossible sequence of events.

So Andy's proposal for AFK dockers to undock with no session timer anywhere in system is fine...so long as the players that can take advantage of it are AFK--i.e. can never ever do it.

To you it doesn't matter as you abuse the system to the maximum. For anyone else that plays this game and want things to be balanced it matters.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3410 - 2013-12-01 19:43:40 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

Again, why should we not be able to see if someone is afk?

You that is active can see if someone is active pretty easy while we that are active and looking after someone in local that we might think is afk, we still have to look out for them until the afk timer have kicked in to be able to confirm if they are afk.

I'm not sure, but that's far from getting free intel dude.


Why should you get something for free that provides you with a benefit? If you want that benefit work for it.

This is why I suggest a nerf to cloaks and change to intel/local which will try to preserve the current balance.

You, you just want a freebie and to give up nothing in exchange. That is not balanced.

And yeah, once that AFK timer kicks in, you just got something for free. What did you do to earn it? Wait? How long? 15 minutes? Bravo sierra. How about 8 hours. After 8 hours of inactivity the tag kicks in. Oh...you didn't get to rat at all? Well....now it cost you something didn't it? Better luck next time.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3411 - 2013-12-01 19:45:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Teckos Pech wrote:

Doesn't matter, it rebuts Andy's claim that an AFK cloaker can close in on a target while cloaked, deactivate the cloak, target and scram the target, and then light a cyno.

None of that can happen while the pilot is AFK. Ever. It is, literally, and impossible sequence of events.

So Andy's proposal for AFK dockers to undock with no session timer anywhere in system is fine...so long as the players that can take advantage of it are AFK--i.e. can never ever do it.

Let's bring the IQ back up to normal again please. We have already established that it is impossible to establish exactly when any player is AFK and therefore the term "AFK cloaker" is completely irrelevant beyond the most generic and academic applications. You can say "None of that can happen while the pilot is AFK" but since it is impossible to know when that statement is true, we can never consider the statement and thus it becomes pointless. So, try again to rebut my claim, but this time with a relevant argument. Not trying to get personal, just asking for everyone to keep the IQ up high enough for a meaningful discussion.

Quote:
So Andy's proposal for AFK dockers to undock with no session timer anywhere in system is fine...so long as the players that can take advantage of it are AFK--i.e. can never ever do it.

PS: Active cloakers can decloak anywhere in system. Seems fair that active players docked should have the same ability, to be fair. LOL. (no I am not being serious. I am making a point about how ridiculous it is to compare Cloakers to Station dockers.)

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3412 - 2013-12-01 19:48:25 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
The pilot is AFK...can't deactivate the cloaking device. Can't lock. Can't shoot. P

But how does the other players in system knows that?


Doesn't matter, it rebuts Andy's claim that an AFK cloaker can close in on a target while cloaked, deactivate the cloak, target and scram the target, and then light a cyno.

None of that can happen while the pilot is AFK. Ever. It is, literally, and impossible sequence of events.

So Andy's proposal for AFK dockers to undock with no session timer anywhere in system is fine...so long as the players that can take advantage of it are AFK--i.e. can never ever do it.

To you it doesn't matter as you abuse the system to the maximum. For anyone else that plays this game and want things to be balanced it matters.


You failed to realize I was answering a completely different question. The claim is that AFK cloakers can do all these amazing things...like many believe about ninjas.

Why they can get withing 2,500 meters of you, decloak, scram you, light a cyno and hours of work for that blinged out ship....down the drain!!!!

Except no AFK pilot can ever do that. He has to be active to do that...hence it is really a complaint about active cloakers. And since we've been told over and over by the anti-cloaking crowd that AFK cloaking never leads to kills, it must have been an active cloaker that was never ever AFK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3413 - 2013-12-01 19:49:54 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Doesn't matter, it rebuts Andy's claim that an AFK cloaker can close in on a target while cloaked, deactivate the cloak, target and scram the target, and then light a cyno.

None of that can happen while the pilot is AFK. Ever. It is, literally, and impossible sequence of events.

So Andy's proposal for AFK dockers to undock with no session timer anywhere in system is fine...so long as the players that can take advantage of it are AFK--i.e. can never ever do it.

Let's bring the IQ back up to normal again please. We have already established that it is impossible to establish exactly when any player is AFK and therefore the term "AFK cloaker" is completely irrelevant beyond the most generic and academic applications. You can say "None of that can happen while the pilot is AFK" but since it is impossible to know when that statement is true, we can never consider the statement and thus it becomes pointless. So, try again to rebut my claim, but this time with a relevant argument. Not trying to get personal, just asking for everyone to keep the IQ up high enough for a meaningful discussion.

Quote:
So Andy's proposal for AFK dockers to undock with no session timer anywhere in system is fine...so long as the players that can take advantage of it are AFK--i.e. can never ever do it.

PS: Active cloakers can decloak anywhere in system. Seems fair that active players docked should have the same ability, to be fair. LOL. (no I am not being serious. I am making a point about how ridiculous it is to compare Cloakers to Station dockers.)


Andy, you were the one that said that an AFK pilot can do those things.

To do those things you can't be AFK.

Your side has argued ad-nauseum that AFK cloaking does not lead to kills. Hell you even argued it does not stop PvE at all as people just shift systems.

Now you want us to believe they can get kills!

Make up your mind.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3414 - 2013-12-01 19:52:23 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Because handing out things for free is not good, this is what those who want an AFK tag are advocating. Free intel, intel they don't have to work for.
...
You want it handed to you by the client after doing...nothing to really earn it.

Really?
Let's go over everything that is free in Eve: Rookie ships, Basic ship insurance, Basic clone insurance, the overview, local, watchlist, contacts, skill points, datacores, PI, market data, ship data (cap, shields, armor, structure, module ranges), moon goo, gasp, and I am sure the list goes on and on but I think I have made my point. Free is good. Yes, free is good. Work is not an end in itself, and when things can be made easier, it is generally a good idea.


What a load of horse crap.

Much of that list is not free:

PI, Datacores, moon goo, etc.

If you don't understand the concept of opportunity cost you really should go learn about it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3415 - 2013-12-01 20:00:29 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

Again, why should we not be able to see if someone is afk?

You that is active can see if someone is active pretty easy while we that are active and looking after someone in local that we might think is afk, we still have to look out for them until the afk timer have kicked in to be able to confirm if they are afk.

I'm not sure, but that's far from getting free intel dude.


Why should you get something for free that provides you with a benefit? If you want that benefit work for it.

This is why I suggest a nerf to cloaks and change to intel/local which will try to preserve the current balance.

You, you just want a freebie and to give up nothing in exchange. That is not balanced.

And yeah, once that AFK timer kicks in, you just got something for free. What did you do to earn it? Wait? How long? 15 minutes? Bravo sierra. How about 8 hours. After 8 hours of inactivity the tag kicks in. Oh...you didn't get to rat at all? Well....now it cost you something didn't it? Better luck next time.

And here we go again with the massive troll of nerfing something that affect all instead of fixing one thing that only affect those who are afk.

Get real dude.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3416 - 2013-12-01 20:01:25 UTC
It doesn't affect only people who are AFK. It affects everyone who uses a cloak. Get your head out of your ass.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#3417 - 2013-12-01 20:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
What a load of horse crap.

Simply, you don't know how EVE works dude. No wonder why you want to destroy it with your ******** troll idea.

Instead of changing something that affect all just to change one thing, then lets change a system that only affect the players who are afk, that is the main problem.

Local is fine and the same with how the cloaks works.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3418 - 2013-12-01 20:01:40 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Because handing out things for free is not good, this is what those who want an AFK tag are advocating. Free intel, intel they don't have to work for.
...
You want it handed to you by the client after doing...nothing to really earn it.

Really?
Let's go over everything that is free in Eve: Rookie ships, Basic ship insurance, Basic clone insurance, the overview, local, watchlist, contacts, skill points, datacores, PI, market data, ship data (cap, shields, armor, structure, module ranges), moon goo, gasp, and I am sure the list goes on and on but I think I have made my point. Free is good. Yes, free is good. Work is not an end in itself, and when things can be made easier, it is generally a good idea.


And the local, overview and market data are available so you can, you know actually play the game. Setting up stuff like that in game would be very, very hard even for CCP (i.e. allow players to create their own market systems like what is already in game).

Yes, everyone gets those for free...but that does not mean that more and more free stuff is good, especially intel. Do you really think this? Should I be able to know everything and anything about your players (all of them) at any second I choose in the game. Where are they, what are they doing, what ships they are in, etc.?

Bots also make things easier too. Should we allow bots?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3419 - 2013-12-01 20:03:02 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Because handing out things for free is not good, this is what those who want an AFK tag are advocating. Free intel, intel they don't have to work for.
...
You want it handed to you by the client after doing...nothing to really earn it.

Really?
Let's go over everything that is free in Eve: Rookie ships, Basic ship insurance, Basic clone insurance, the overview, local, watchlist, contacts, skill points, datacores, PI, market data, ship data (cap, shields, armor, structure, module ranges), moon goo, gasp, and I am sure the list goes on and on but I think I have made my point. Free is good. Yes, free is good. Work is not an end in itself, and when things can be made easier, it is generally a good idea.


What a load of horse crap.

Simply, you don't know how EVE works dude. No wonder why you want to destroy it with your ******** idea.


So, PI and datacores are free....

If you mine minerals for building, those are free too?

Jesus....the economically illterate are out in force today.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kenpo
The Guardians of the Beam
#3420 - 2013-12-01 20:04:47 UTC
Round and round we go, where we'll stop nobody knows.

Caution, rubber gloves and faceshield required when handling this equipment.