Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Page two?!

NOT ON MY WATCH!

Why? I don't see the need for these additional abilities of the probes/module/whatever.




The idea of making a cloaking ship visible on overview for the ship with the module is so that if the cloaked ship is fit for speed he wont be able to avoid be decloaked by moving. If it takes 10 seconds to get to the spot scanned down the guy could be 6,000 meters or more a way. Lucas' point of trying to chase that guy down while still cloaked is valid.

Smart players will discover new tactics with the new abilities. It may turn out to be easier to scan a wreck than a frigate in the same anomaly. It may turn out that someone is using a GSC floating out in open space away from structures and celestials for resupply during extended camping far behind enemy lines. One could also find long finished anomalies (previously assumed to be safe from scanning) and "interact" with the wrecks or players there (or attempt to decloak them). The number of possibilities for new tactics is endless and the ability is certainly an advanced one in the realm of the new advanced scanners. The bigger question would be why not. The ability to scan wrecks and containers certainly pales in comparison to giving the ability to BOTH see and lock AND decloak at substantial range, which I am inclined not to support; I don't want to break cloaking .. I love cloaking, just not afk cloaking with cyno.



He may be 6000m away or more in an unknown direction, but a second scan would yield a second result to which the ship could approach and therefore move in the general direction of the cloaked shipwith a good idea on range and ship type too. If it was a covert ops scanning, he could do it all cloaked and at higher speeds which makes it even more powerful .. without guaranteeing a cloaky kill. You can still try to chase the cloaky down with general ideas of the target's direction and distance, but you will have to decloak him (and yourself) the old fashion way of approaching with 2km. He might even be watching you with his own cloak probes, and evading cloak and dagger style.


Elec, I believe that the idea is that if the afk cloaky can be hunted then players can stop his afk cloaky camping by killing him. It is relevant because those who are bothered by the camping now have a way to try to kill the camper. I agree that the part of their idea about locking and decloaking a ship is OP as a massive nerf to all cloaky vessels, which is why I submitted a counter proposal along similar lines without the ability to see, lock, and decloak cloakies with the module.

Not really. Everyone and their mother has probes within reach. In your rented home system you'll have probes out 24/7. This doesnt really cost anything and you got your way: you're 100% safe from cloakies now. If you're on a roam or whatnot there's always probes near. Lets say you got a big fleet fight. People already bring probes to those. If you got your way bombers in fleet fights would be useless, because you mass-decloak them using your OP probes.

Ofcourse you dont care about that, you just want to afk rat in your carrier without any danger.

You are only safe so long as you are looking for them with a ship/module dedicated to that activity. Will some players use them all the time? I suppose some poop-socking null ratters might, but you'll have to being doing it...as often as the cycle time lets you. And watch local. And watch your ratting ship. If it takes a minute (just an example) for the module to cycle and return results that is way more time than you currently have where you are essentially invisible to the guy except for a very brief period between gate cloak and cloaking device cloak.

Right now, that poop socking ratter has a total advantage over any active hunter. Enter his system and he'll bugger off to a POS, station, etc. Then he can go switch out his poop sock, get some more hot pockets and soda while waiting for you to leave. If you AFK cloak, my guess is most of these guys will switch systems. Get your cyno alt out to your secondary ratting system and jump out your carrier(s) and start working on filling up that clean sock.

And to be perfectly honest, this is just part of what I'd like to see implemented. I'd love to decouple intel from local. So that local is only a chat channel and any ship does not show in local...at all. However, there'd be an intel infrastructure that could be attacked and damaged and compromised.

The overall idea is to make active hunting and disrupting logistics and economic activities more interesting vs. logging in your alts in systems X, Y and Z and then going to work. The latter is effective, but it is also horrible game play.

And Dude, you might want to go back and read my posts. I don't rat. I hate it. Very boring. I have found other avenues of generating isk.

And I figure if I'm being vilified by both sides...I must really be on to a fantastic idea. Of course, having some positive criticism would be better IMO. I know you hate the idea, so, how would you eliminate AFK cloaking, but still ensure that null is risky and hopefully more interesting?

You still havent thought about the effect this "omgwtfwin" module has on legit cloaky gangs.
Its like me requesting a probe launcher that, when you find someone within a complex/mission you'd warp straight on top of them instead of to a gate or whatever. And while probing your target is unable to warp away or log off.

It would work like probes do now, so you wouldn't necessarily warp right on top of them. Also, this ship cannot cloak, and to get the warp in I think you'd need actual probes out (I'll have to recheck Nikk's thread/description--and if it doesn't it could be made as a requirement, thus potentially alerting the cloaked active player to the potential danger).

Heck, I wouldn't even mind if this module sent out a warning message to the cloaked ships that the module is in use (kind of like the active sonar some people have used as an analogy). To me the idea of this module is to ensure no more AFK cloaking. So only if you are AFK would you really need to fear this being an OMGWTFWIN module. As for active cloaking pilots it would create a game of cat and mouse.

The way I see it both sides will have to accept some degree of a nerf. I think cloakies should also get a countering buff...but only for active players. Active hunters, bomber wings, transport ships, etc. I don't want to nerf game play for active players.

Edit: And I don't think your comparison is valid.

With probes and a guy in a complex/anomaly, they show in local. Shortly after you hit the jump button at the gate you KNOW they are there in system. You KNOW, pooping out probes will likely be a wise idea.

With Nikk's changes you wouldn't necessarily KNOW a cloaky is in system. Especially if you jump into that system to rat, mine, etc. If the cloakies are in system and are cloaked up, you'd see local as clear. So now you'd have to send in a ship with this module and scan every system you plan on moving through/into.

Yes, current tactics might have to change some, but I don't see this as the OMGWTFWIN module. If anything the strenuous disagreement of guys like Lucas and Andy and now you suggest...this module might be quite balanced. Makes everyone have to work. Oh no!! /o\

Edit 2: Oh, and if you are in a cloaked vessel and you see somebody using combat scanner probes and you suspect this module is in use, and you are using D-scan and notice a ship closing on you...nothing stops you from warping. Even if they land on grid with you, you can still warp. Even if they lock you, you may still be able to warp (depends on if you are aligned out, their locking time, range, etc.).

Decloak anything on grid? WTF?!

You can SEE them on grid. ONLY YOU, because you have the module active.
IF they are in targeting range of your ship, you can start to lock them.
If they are not in targeting range, or you already have the maximum number of locked targets for your ship, you can stare at them.

Like any ship being locked, this will warn them someone can see them.

If a bomber wing making a run wants to casually hang out in locking range of other ships, knowing that one or more might be able to see them, that is their judgement call to make.

They currently operate while being openly listed in local, so the idea they were surprising people always assumed a lack of effort on their opponents' part. While not the same one as before, still a lack of effort.

Or, you might want to bring the bomber wing in later when the hostile FC is occupied. A covert cyno to bypass any gate camp at a safe. Get in cloak up and the hostile FC might not even see the brief spike in local (or bring them in waves--i.e. 4 to 5 bombers at a time). Now you have the true element of surprise unless there is a guy in this ship sitting around scanning for precisely this kind of thing. Remember, once cloaked these bombers all disappear from local.

I could definitely support ships entering a system through some point offgrid of the gates not being listed in local until they appear uncloaked at a known-space station, stargate, IHub, customs office, or local registry structure [below] (I'll call these "local" structures) OR until they chat in a known-space local chat channel.

I could support local listing all ships previously listed in local as disconnected after they cloak up, engage a jump drive to another system, or jump through a wormhole, until they appear at a "local" structure in any known system. Entering a system through an unmonitored (see local registry structure [below]) wh would not change any local listings, and each ship would remain listed as disconnected in the last previous known system, until it appear decloaked at one of the "local" structures.

The only exception would be that the listing would be removed upon logout and replaced upon login, even if logging was done away from those structures. The logging mechanic would be an extension of the contact list watch feature.

These adjustments to local should be balanced by themselves without needing a "hunter" module to counterbalance or justify them. The would reveal cloaky and wh activity. They would allow whs to mask activity.

I would probably also support the addition of a local registry structure to be anchored and onlined anywhere in space to report to local all decloaked ships appearing on grid. In unknown space, the listing would be isolated from all k-space local, so that a pilot could be listed in 1 k-space system local and multiple, isolated w-space locals with "disconnected" stamped on ships not visible to the registry structure. This would allow w-space to develop a very limited form of their own isolated local intel. The logging mechanic would affect these isolated listings. The isolated listings would be permanently dropped if a registry structure saw the ship leave the system through a wormhole or the k-space listings were updated for that pilot AND a member of the corp was in known space after the update and while the pilot was logged into known space.

These local mechanics changes follow the lore that local is tied to the gate system, but allows both stealth and logical mechanics. A stealth bomber could enter a system in known space through an unmonitored wh and strike a target with local notifying the target because his presence was not made known at a "local" structure, even for a brief period of time.

There still should be a 1 minute timer after decloak before a cyno can be lit/cycled. The auto-logoff will also still go well with this idea.