Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Anyone who promotes the idea of any ship that can one shot another ship shamelessly advances their preferred ship class into the OP zone. At least pretend to be unbiased and to advocate a balanced solution, especially after advocating so many times the value of balance in the game. The one-shot ability is laughable in the face of balance, and yes, I take direct aim at the Titan with that remark.

Now, my analogy was solely intended to illustrate how covert ops has always been seen as a small force which slowly and stealthy moves through enemy territory in order to strike a high priority targets when they are not armored using limited weaponry and no armor. Covert ops in Eve has little semblance to the conventional undertanding of covert ops, because Covert Ops ships compared to normal ships of the same class:

1. Move fast (normal speed through enemy gates and instant speed through cynos),
2. Strike any target despite their armor class or priority level,
3. Can be quite highly armored themselves and can have high dps too; weaponry is not limited much for BLOPS BS or SB

.

My ideas addressed those three issues by slowing movement (cynos) and limiting the time available for the engagement (ideas 1 and 2), and prevent immediate stealth after an extended engagement (idea 3). IRL, cov ops cannot move quickly through enemy territory (2 min cyno activation wait after decloak), do not have long for an engagement and if they engage with a second (extended time) round, they cannot hide very easily until after they evade the local forces for a while (2 min after last volley before recloak).

Andy, anyone who shamelessly advances nerfing ships they don't like into utter uselessness is advancing their own agenda and not being honest. That would be you.

Me, I was being rather facetious and running your silly idea that ships that fit a covert ops cloak are "Eve's version of Real World™ snipers". I took what you wrote and applied it to said class of ships.

1. Snipers use 1 shot, 1 kill method.
2. Snipers use stealth, and never reveal their location even after shooting...if they can help it.
3. They work at a distance.

So, if you don't like all the implications of your dopey metaphore, then perhaps you should disavow it now. And don't sit there and pretend to be unbiased. We can all see that for the complete and utter nonsense that is.



Oh and as for your list:

Normal ships move fast. Normal speed through gates, instantly through cynos. Yes a normal ship can use a cyno, not a BLOPs cyno, but conventional one still works and IIRC you were complaining about hundreds of ships streaming through a cyno early on.

Normsl ships can strike any ship despite armor call or priority...whatever that means. (Hint, I once saw a BS get taken down by a gang of interceptors.)

Normal ships, compared to ships fitting covert ops cloaks, have considerably more armor/tank and DPS. Which is why you don't see fleets of cloaky ships during sov warfare (except perhaps the occasional bomber wing).

No, removing and/or reducing a ships ability to do what it was designed to do is a nerf. And a nerf for no other reason than to enhance your play style (at least your PvE play style).

And the reason this is important to me is I'm interested in game balance and providing a counter view point the whiny carebear screeds that appear on this particular sub-forum. To maintain the notion of a sandbox and not turn Eve into a theme park.

If the only purpose of a SB was to light cynos for blue balling hotdrops, then the 2 min spool up on the cyno would make it utterly useless. Fortunately, SBs are used for more than just that. Much more.

Lacking a cyno spool timer mechanic, a cyno fitted SB without an online point would still have a lot of usefulness with teamwork and other ops and structure shoots. An SB without a cyno would be able to online a point under my proposal, and have a whole lot of value in that configuration.

Lastly, SB are frigates and as such have never had any tank to begin with. Recons can fit a hefty 1600mm plate though.

You have no idea why I propose any idea; especially given what you have posted so far. If there is anything transparent, it is your assumptions of bad intent from anyone who takes issue with AFK cloaks or in this case with cloaky cyno. Realize that the cyno bridge, the Titan Doomsday, and pretty much everything brought into the game with the super caps are overpowered. The blue balling cyno hotdrops are also very overpowered in themselves. Without those cyno and supercap elements, there is nothing to fear about any cloaked ship beyond normal pvp considerations and the afk cloaky issue holds little interest or concern.

I didn't say it was the only use, but it is one of the primary uses. Scouting, bombing runs, siege fleets, and BLOPs, there isn't much else one can put on the list of things a stealth bomber does.

And BLOPs BS? What are they going to be good for? What about force recons?



It is still a nerf for your enhanced security where you haven't even shown an imbalance. That is the problem you don;t like it so you want it nerfed.



Yeah, a force recon can fit a 1600mm plate if they don't want to fit guns or too many other modules (without gimping the fit). And the no tackle pretty much ruins the Arazu. Plus a 2 minute extension on the cyno is a 40% increase in the duration of the cyno and that is a serious nerf as it means the ship has a substantially increased period where it is helpless.




That is your opinion you have provided no explanation as to why they are overpowered. Oh, and this...



In other words, you have failed to consider that hot dropping and cynos are to get around the issues with local. As has already been established what you call "normal PvP" wont be a serious issue for anybody doing PvE in null. Anybody trying to catch a ratter or miner will have little hope so long as local continues to give advance warning when a hostile enters. And you have failed to consider that the Devs have this precisely in mind when they introduced BLOPs and covert ops cynos. And that titan bridges are to provide a way to get around massive bubble/gate camps and make combat in null more dynamic and unpredictable.

And blue balling is not a simply a result of cynos. Blue balling is an issue of numbers...which again local makes very easy to determine. Want to know where our enemy is and how many of them you maybe facing? Get into their staging system (which the in game will give you plenty of help with) and get a scout into local, there done. A bit more work and you can get ship types as well. If one side sees it is heavily outnumbered, they stand down.

Bullshit.

BLOPS BS will still bridge. Recons will still do EWar as effectively as ever. They will still light cynos sometimes.[/quote]

1. A BLOPs bridge will be useless. A 2 minute spool up timer is plenty of time for any target to get safe. If you can't get safe your a horrible, horrible, horrible player.

2. Tackls is part of EWAR and wow, they can still do something...but that is it.

3. And as I noted the primary job of the Arazu is tackle.

You are advocating a huge nerf that leaves most of the ships that can fit a covert ops cloak and cyno useless in that role. They are left with scouting, and for bombers siege fleet and bombing runs. That's it. BLOPsing will be dead...which we know is precisely what you want.



Uhhhmmm because sitting imobile in hostile space for an additional 2 mintues is a 40% increase in the amount of time one is stuck immobile for regular cynos and additional 200% increase in time spent immobile. That is a nerf. There is no other way to consider it. Your own words damn you as well. You have said that anything having to do with super capitals is OP (what this has to do with BLOPs, I don't know) and that would include cynos. Hence cynos are OP. And you have written this claim numerous times in this thread. So if you really think a cyno is OP then the logical solution from your stand point is to nerf them.



Change the tactics? How exactly would you catch someone with a 2 minute spool up timer, showing in local and not having a point. Please elucidate how these new tactics would work. I'm calling you a liar at this point on this one. You are saying this just to try and bolster your horrible position and in reality have nothing. Oh...wait, anchor a bubble right?



Solo kills? WTFAYTA? We were discussing cynos and tackle, not solo work. If a cyno I'd say others are going to be involved with probability 1. And I have nowhere written or implied anyone is entitled to a solo kill. What I have written is that people who are so inclined are entitled to try to get those solo kills if they want. So your attempt to turn the claims that your are entitled to your safe ratting around falls flat on its face here. Perhaps you can show a post where I even hint that a solo pilot is entitled to his kill (note, using my facetious comments using your idiotic sniper metaphor wont cut it BTW, and technically that wont even work because when I wrote that I noted the pilot would have to get a "hit" or better--i.e. the hit has to be of a certain quality before it is a kill).

And yes, we can make a reasonable inference on what you want here. You want a safer ratting environment. That much is trivially obvious. And rebalancing is either nerfing or buffing. You either make something that is too weak stronger or too strong less strong. For example the tracking titan rebalance was clearly a nerf. You are just playing at semantics at this point, something I see as rather dishonest.



Oh. So were you just confused then? Any spool up timer will increase the amount of time any ship is exposed and capable of being shot. WTF is a cold drop? Cynoing in off grid? If so then yes we get the idea you want more time and warning even for covert ops cynos. You don't have to keep beating this horse. You feel entitled to a safer ratting environment.

Continued....

It is not integral in that not every AFK cloaker fits one. Some do, some don't.

And yes, cynos do get around the problem of local. One guy showing up in local is different than 10-15. The latter is going to be more noticable. A cyno gets around that.

And yeah, the intended target saw the hostile, that is precisely the problem...not only that, but target saw the hostile with advanced warning. Your "solutions" build on that advanced warning and push them to extreme limits forcing cynos off grid, but since local sitll works the target is still going to have time to get safe. So even if the active hunter gets lucky and the target does not notice him, once local starts filling up there is a much greater chance he will notice and warp off.

You clearly consider the cyno OP and want to nerf it to bring into what you consider balance. Your dishonest attempts at word smithing that point away are duly noted.

As for shifting tactics, exactly how would tactics shift? Light the cyno where? Just off grid? Probably wont be very good since the cyno ship will show up on d-scan. Not sure, but I think the covert cyno might as well (like I said, I haven't done much BLOPsing, contrary to your continued erroneous claims). So, more than 14 AU away? Great a nice long warp and thus more time for the hostile to warp off...clearly a nerf to covert cynos and BLOPs work, and a buff to the targets of BLOPs work--i.e. ratting and other PvE activities. Use of bubbles? Nope, no ship can use bubbles that can fit a covert ops cyno. Anchoring bubbles? Not viable since most players are going to notice this kind of activity as well. Oh, I know...send in the tackle, then send in the cyno! At that point, why not just have the rest of the fleet sitting one jump out. Oh wait, local and intel channels could very well give them away....which is why they like using the BLOPs and the cyno in the first place...to avoid being reported in intel channels.

So Andy, what brilliant tactic are you thinking will work?



We have not agreed to anything you are just being arrogant and presumptuous.

Oh and untouchable cyno? You can shoot them you know. And this is my thread so people can discuss local which is absolutely the source of AFK cloaking. No local, no AFK cloaking.

This is an excellent summary of why local as an intel mechanic is broken. It conveys on one side an advantage the other side does not get and by purely mechanistic means--i.e. it is a benefit that one side gets simply because of how the game works, not by something the players have done (e.g.--bring more players, bring ships with the better fit, etc.). By definition that is imbalanced.

How about droping on a fleet? It's useless for that now too.

****, escalations are pretty much impossible now.

With the exception of bridging capitals or the once-in-a-blue-moon gatecamp dodge, it would be better to just bring your fleet in through the goddamn gate rather than cynoing them in.