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AFK Cloaking Collection Thread

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Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2641 - 2013-10-26 17:32:04 UTC
BOldMan wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
BOldMan wrote:
cloak + blackop cyno is OP
Anybody who disagree is in pure denial or in deep clueless. Or a hot dropper low life scum.

Dont need to nerf both, only their combination. Like a cloaked ship cannot covert cyno for 2 minutes after decloaking.

You realize most people use regular cynos right?

regular mean a beacon in system, It seem you dont live in null where is only black op cyno used on hot drop with afk cloakers.

TIL: titans can bridge to covert cynos.
BOldMan
Game Land Operations
#2642 - 2013-10-26 23:12:31 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
BOldMan wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
BOldMan wrote:
cloak + blackop cyno is OP
Anybody who disagree is in pure denial or in deep clueless. Or a hot dropper low life scum.

Dont need to nerf both, only their combination. Like a cloaked ship cannot covert cyno for 2 minutes after decloaking.

You realize most people use regular cynos right?

regular mean a beacon in system, It seem you dont live in null where is only black op cyno used on hot drop with afk cloakers.

TIL: titans can bridge to covert cynos.


And? what it is your point? Is not enough that black ops have all arms? Have BS covert, electronic ships covert, recons, covop, T3 and so on. Need moare? to drop some BS ratting? Thats pvp? LOL to who believe is pvp on hot dropping.
Fact and reality impossible to deny. One bomber AFK in one system can disrupt this system permanently. Totally. Any method to counter this is only a lame panaceu. He can choose whenever and whatever to drop. Only way to counter is to have a spy in his dropper corp or to ratt with whole fleet in same anomalies.
I can see how zero space will become more zero for small or medium corps.
JIeoH Mocc
brotherhood of desman
#2643 - 2013-10-27 08:54:23 UTC
Of course it's PvP. Unless you drop a bot - then it's PvE.
The argument about the different flavours and colours of PvP is irrelevant, you'll be surprised on how the opinions differ between different "true PvPers" so it's best to stick to the dry definition of "interaction between players" be it a gank in an anomaly, suicide in highsec, a honourable 1vs1 (with links and falcon alt on standby, of course) and :shock: market PvP.
None of it is relevant though, your appeals, based on your personal preferences about ingame activities carry little weight in arguments about mechanics/balance.
You did bring up an INTERESTING (if not unheard of!) solution - ratting in fleets! Great Scotch, that's a brave new idea!
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2644 - 2013-10-27 22:09:58 UTC
BOldMan wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
BOldMan wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
BOldMan wrote:
cloak + blackop cyno is OP
Anybody who disagree is in pure denial or in deep clueless. Or a hot dropper low life scum.

Dont need to nerf both, only their combination. Like a cloaked ship cannot covert cyno for 2 minutes after decloaking.

You realize most people use regular cynos right?

regular mean a beacon in system, It seem you dont live in null where is only black op cyno used on hot drop with afk cloakers.

TIL: titans can bridge to covert cynos.


And? what it is your point? Is not enough that black ops have all arms? Have BS covert, electronic ships covert, recons, covop, T3 and so on. Need moare? to drop some BS ratting? Thats pvp? LOL to who believe is pvp on hot dropping.
Fact and reality impossible to deny. One bomber AFK in one system can disrupt this system permanently. Totally. Any method to counter this is only a lame panaceu. He can choose whenever and whatever to drop. Only way to counter is to have a spy in his dropper corp or to ratt with whole fleet in same anomalies.
I can see how zero space will become more zero for small or medium corps.


My God...ratting in a fleet! What a horror!!! Roll

I know you mean a 256 man fleet with complete with boosting ships and logistics, whereas I mean 4-5 in PvP T1 ships with T2 modules. Nothing worth ganking, TBQH, and pobably too much for most BLOPs gangs.

I know, I know, that single AFK bomber is going to a light a cyno and 10,000 ships will stream through. Roll

Damn pansies....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2645 - 2013-10-27 22:26:01 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
BOldMan wrote:
cloak + blackop cyno is OP
Anybody who disagree is in pure denial or in deep clueless. Or a hot dropper low life scum.

Dont need to nerf both, only their combination. Like a cloaked ship cannot covert cyno for 2 minutes after decloaking.

You realize most people use regular cynos right?

I also think that the 2 minutes should apply to regular cynos too, under your proposal.

Traditional covert ops are usually against high value, low armored targets deep in enemy space with only 1 shot. A sniper cannot use a second shot without a guarantee that he dies. He also cannot shoot through a tank. With the right rifle, he can penetrate some armor, though, but that is mostly used just to disable equipment, not to kill people. After that first shot, the targets can easily flee and the sniper team certainly is not sticking around to pin anyone down.

The analogy goes to Eve in that high armor targets BC and larger should not be vulnerable to covert ops at all. Points on covert ops/recons simply doesn't make sense in light of traditional covert ops, as the world understands it.

Translating this to proposals of changes in Eve mechanics, the covert ship with a (reg/cov) cyno fit cannot have a scram/disruptor active at the same time. Covert ships which fire more than 1 volley while decloaked cannot recloak until after waiting a 5 minute timer. Lastly, the covert cyno would be visible on the system overview if any ship fires on another ship on the same grid.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2646 - 2013-10-27 22:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Andy Landen wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
BOldMan wrote:
cloak + blackop cyno is OP
Anybody who disagree is in pure denial or in deep clueless. Or a hot dropper low life scum.

Dont need to nerf both, only their combination. Like a cloaked ship cannot covert cyno for 2 minutes after decloaking.

You realize most people use regular cynos right?

I also think that the 2 minutes should apply to regular cynos too, under your proposal.

Traditional covert ops are usually against high value, low armored targets deep in enemy space with only 1 shot. A sniper cannot use a second shot without a guarantee that he dies. He also cannot shoot through a tank. With the right rifle, he can penetrate some armor, though, but that is mostly used just to disable equipment, not to kill people. After that first shot, the targets can easily flee and the sniper team certainly is not sticking around to pin anyone down.

The analogy goes to Eve in that high armor targets BC and larger should not be vulnerable to covert ops at all. Points on covert ops/recons simply doesn't make sense in light of traditional covert ops, as the world understands it.

Translating this to proposals of changes in Eve mechanics, the covert ship with a (reg/cov) cyno fit cannot have a scram/disruptor active at the same time. Covert ships which fire more than 1 volley while decloaked cannot recloak until after waiting a 5 minute timer. Lastly, the covert cyno would be visible on the system overview if any ship fires on another ship on the same grid.


Oh for God's sake. Roll

We get it already Andy, you should be able to rat in perfect safety. You can stop with these horrible ideas.

Let me see...

1. No covert ops cloak and covert ops cyno on the same ship.
2. No warp scrambler or disruptor on any ship with a covert ops cloak.
3. But, no true stealth for people with covert ops cloaks (even though you are invoking real world snipers for some bizarre reason...who do use actual stealth--e.g. gillie suits which work alot like, OMFG, cloaking devices and snipers would never work very well without stealth).

What's next no guns or launchers either?

Jesus mother ****** on a pogo stick.

Roll

And seriously, are you really invoking real world snipers as an analogy to in game covert ops? Okay, fine, I also want a module that when I do lurk up on the target I can one shot them...like a real sniper.

Deal? No? How shocking.

Dude....wrong game. Really, wrong game.

Whoops, and I forgot, its a sniping weapon good even at extreme ranges--i.e. 500 or more KM. So even if the grid is weird I can still one shot you.

Edit:

Going with your sniper idea Andy I think it should work this way:

1. No cyno on a covert ops ship of any kind. No covert ops cyno or cyno.
2. No scram or disruptor.
3. Sniper weapon that can one shot a target that does not have a 1600mm plate. Any smaller plate or no plate, sorry you are vulnerable to this weapon which if it gets a hit or better it destroys our ship.
4. When the sniper weapon is fit the ship can target and shoot while cloaked.
5. When the sniper weapon is fit, true stealth...you don't show in local when the cloak is active.

Deal Andy? That is how a "real world" sniper work. You'd never see him other wise you'd not have your head up like a ripe juicy melon waiting to get blown apart. Once he does shoot, nobody around you would even know where the shot came from until they looked are your body, got witness statements, etc. A professional soldier might get an idea of the general direction, but even that is doubtful. Seems reasonable to me given what you are basing your silly mechanics suggestions on.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2647 - 2013-10-27 23:39:34 UTC
Lance Stratos wrote:
First off, please sticky this thread. It really deserves it.

Proposal:
"Cat and mouse like"

Cats would be the hunters and rats would be the cloakys in this, i assume is what was implied during eve-Vegas.

Active module "Active sonar (tm)"
Cool down of 2 minutes, module CD reduced by 5% per skill level or something
possible supplemental skills: 5% range/strength bonus per level (you will see later)

how it works:

1 module fitted to ship max. will send out an active ping and give you a sphere (like probe scanning but you must fly the ship to each spot) for a possible detection of where a hostile might be located within the max range of the module. If a target is on-grid then depending on the (sonar str)/(hostiles signature +or * cloaking modifier)= chance of decloaking on gird. if chance > 1 then it has the opportunity to decloak off grid otherwise there is a 2% chance it may decloak within range based on target signature, your sonar str, and the range (falloff, exponential)

ie if you are 1 AU away from a bomber, you would get a sphere within 1 +or- 10-15% au of your ship stating a hostile might be there, and everyone within range of your ship's sonar gets notice of the active sonar ping, if active, the hostile can move, if afk he will not know the difference. but because a bomber sig is smaller the accuracy of your ping will be different then that of a Black Ops, which you would have a more accurate detail of where he may be at 1 au (+or- 2%).

if they are within 100,000km a bomber might not be decloaked (only due to the 2% chance which would be nearly 0 after 100,000km with the small sig), but a blackops has a good chance too, and a capital is probably getting decloaked within 500,000km guaranteed decloak. ongird would not be 100% chance decloak either. its highly possible a bomber wont be decloaked (only 50% if target's range > 100km if you have all lvl 5 skills)



I admit, there are problems with this,
-large fleets would decloak every thing within 100,000km if they choose to waste a mid slot
-the range needs to be looked at because of people hiding in safes 20 AUs between celestials and they may not ever get decloaked and being ongrid with them is (almost) impossible.
-will cloaking be jammed when decloaked or will it be an ecm burst and just break cloak?
-does the module (idea) hurt cloaking too much? {personal note: i do not think so, cloaking currently has no counters. plus this only hurts if someone is staying in the same location}




Secondary idea: Like the idea i proposed, a module but Passive Sonar-> Directional scan will say "Possible cloaked object", more acurate with lower direction (ie 5% will give better range idea then 30%)


There is no cat an mouse here since you already know with certainty the guy is in local.

Might be doable is cloaked ships do not show in local when cloaks are active.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2648 - 2013-10-27 23:46:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Teckos Pech wrote:

Oh for God's sake. Roll

We get it already Andy, you should be able to rat in perfect safety. You can stop with these horrible ideas.

Let me see...

1. No covert ops cloak and covert ops cyno on the same ship.
2. No warp scrambler or disruptor on any ship with a covert ops cloak.
3. But, no true stealth for people with covert ops cloaks (even though you are invoking real world snipers for some bizarre reason...who do use actual stealth--e.g. gillie suits which work alot like, OMFG, cloaking devices and snipers would never work very well without stealth).

I know you don't like the ideas. The strength of your aversion to weakening the cyno introduced a lot of misunderstanding though. Also, realize that when you use real world terms there is an implication of some semblance of cohesion with conventional understanding.

First, I am not talking about safety at all, even though misinterpretations can infer affects on safety to some ships in some conditions. Second, the ideas are just fine. They just change how you do business into a more meaningful way.

My answer to 1. Not correct at all. The idea was taken from another player's proposal: 2 min timer after decloaking before a cyno can be activated , which I extended to reg cyno.
MAT 2. No ACTIVE warp scrambler or disruptor on any ship with an ACTIVE reg/covert cyno module.
MAT 3. IRL, shot #1 gets people's attention despite the stealth, but they can't pinpoint the direction until shot #2. A BS has lots of armor already so no 1600mm plates are required .. it is a tank. No sniper can 1 shot an Abrams IRL, so 1 shot in Eve doesn't make sense unless it is to a pod or maybe a frigate too. The frigate would be like a jeep or something small. And no sniper can 1 shot a small fast jeep even with anti-material rifles. Those are designed to knock out a radio or stationary engine block or go through light armor to take out a key officer. Officers riding in Abrams are immune to snipers/cov ops. The point is that stealth exist until the second shot which implies limited, fast, light engagements. Cov Ops never pins down or "scrams" targets IRL unless they are willing to be flattened by the local standing armies.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
chrisss0r
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2649 - 2013-10-28 00:17:12 UTC
I must have missed officers in abrams tanks shooting up herds of cows for money.

Real life comparisons do not work for eve.
You getting dunked in your ratting ship is intended if you mess up.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2650 - 2013-10-28 02:58:41 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:

My answer to 1. Not correct at all. The idea was taken from another player's proposal: 2 min timer after decloaking before a cyno can be activated , which I extended to reg cyno.


This is a lie. You have written quite clearly you don't think a ship that can fit both a covert ops cloak and cyno should be able to do so.

Quote:
MAT 2. No ACTIVE warp scrambler or disruptor on any ship with an ACTIVE reg/covert cyno module.


In other words, make null safer.

Quote:
MAT 3. IRL, shot #1 gets people's attention despite the stealth, but they can't pinpoint the direction until shot #2. A BS has lots of armor already so no 1600mm plates are required .. it is a tank. No sniper can 1 shot an Abrams IRL, so 1 shot in Eve doesn't make sense unless it is to a pod or maybe a frigate too.


Then the entire sniper metaphor falls completely apart and the whole idea is idiotic and should be abandoned.

Quote:
The frigate would be like a jeep or something small. And no sniper can 1 shot a small fast jeep even with anti-material rifles. Those are designed to knock out a radio or stationary engine block or go through light armor to take out a key officer. Officers riding in Abrams are immune to snipers/cov ops. The point is that stealth exist until the second shot which implies limited, fast, light engagements. Cov Ops never pins down or "scrams" targets IRL unless they are willing to be flattened by the local standing armies.


Look at how pathetic this is. You are mixing your metaphors so badly you are just spouting errant nonsense now. Now frigates are jeeps and battle ships are Abrams tanks.

You have reached the level of complete self parody.

Keep posting and bumping the thread though. I appreciate keeping it on the front page so everyone can see the laughable ideas you have proposed.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2651 - 2013-10-28 03:29:18 UTC
Well, I said the SoE cruiser would be nerfed sooner than later.

http://themittani.com/news/sisters-eve-cruiser-rebalance

Guess I was right. I expect further nerfs too. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#2652 - 2013-10-28 13:45:29 UTC
This whole thing is so painfully obvious, that it crosses over into a comedy of errors....

Null is for group effort and play.
Players working together are intended to support all aspects, whether it is the 20 guys waiting to jump through a cyno, or 20 guys in a roam, or 20 guys in a mining op.
It is STILL 20 paid accounts playing the game, regardless of whether it is 20 actual players or not.
The side with more players working together, is SUPPOSED to be having that advantage.

High sec, by design, allows some of the benefits of group play for solo players, or those in groups otherwise too small to have the desired effect. That would be Concord's appearance to shoot at hostile players, exactly like allied players would do.
The limits and rules about who they shoot are there so they are not abused more than they currently are.

If you are upset that a larger group of players is beating you in null, you are complaining about game design.
If you are upset that you don't know how many players you are facing, you need to work harder at your intel and figure it out.
(Well, I saw 20 people in that roam, so I know how many they have! I call BS on that, since you only saw what they let you see. You have no idea how many they really have, but since it was a marching band equivalent in being easy to spot, anyone who wanted to avoid them could do so)

No part of the game is based around consensual PvP.
EVER.
The choices you make determine how safe you are. A bling fit ship in high sec, unless a fleet of really clever players is protecting it, is pretty much doomed the moment someone became aware a profit could be made suicide ganking it.

In null sec, it just has to be possible to make a profit with much easier conditions, since concord won't be helping either side.

The unknown is an intended game mechanic.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2653 - 2013-10-28 14:41:29 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
This whole thing is so painfully obvious, that it crosses over into a comedy of errors....


No kidding. Ships that fit a covert ops cloak/cyno are like real world snipers....but they get no sealth (unlike real world snipers), they can't get a one shot weapons (unlike real world snipers) and even if they did it wouldn't work on any ship in the game.

The entire analogy is farking stupid beyond belief. Covert ops, force recons, stealth bombers, etc. are like snipers in the real world...except in every way that actually matters. Instead of making such ships the Eve equivalent of Carlos Hathcock they become the Eve equivalent of Elmer Fudd.

All because some dingle berries wants to rant in safety you can't even find in high security space. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2654 - 2013-10-28 16:21:56 UTC
Bump...

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Markus Blaze
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2655 - 2013-10-28 16:49:59 UTC
I kind of wish covops ships could one shot certain ships; like bombers can one shot cruisers, recons BS, etc. if that was the case it might be worth looking into changing cloaking somehow. Cloakwhiners can have scanners or whatever, if cloakies get a REAL iwin button.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#2656 - 2013-10-28 18:56:24 UTC
how about we remove cov ops and cloaking from the game altogether?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#2657 - 2013-10-28 19:07:10 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
how about we remove cov ops and cloaking from the game altogether?

Would the context of this request be for consensual PvP only, then?
Your structures cannot run, but you can always play in ships capable of avoiding unwanted pew pew.

Would you define cloaked as unexpected, or undetectable?
Unexpected includes opponents on the other side of a gate, while undetectable means you know they are present, but cannot find them.
We don't actually have genuine cloaking, per se.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#2658 - 2013-10-28 19:13:35 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
how about we remove cov ops and cloaking from the game altogether?

Would the context of this request be for consensual PvP only, then?
Your structures cannot run, but you can always play in ships capable of avoiding unwanted pew pew.

Would you define cloaked as unexpected, or undetectable?
Unexpected includes opponents on the other side of a gate, while undetectable means you know they are present, but cannot find them.
We don't actually have genuine cloaking, per se.



no its just that cloaking is a broken mechanic. i mean all these patches they had to do to fix it, it wasnt until a while ago where bomb squads would decloak each other and all this. BlackOps cant even warp cloaked! capital ships use the same module for something that has 20x larger axis and it still uses the same cpu and powergrid?

broken mechanic, remove it from the game, no one uses it for combat anyways.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#2659 - 2013-10-28 19:26:34 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
how about we remove cov ops and cloaking from the game altogether?

Would the context of this request be for consensual PvP only, then?
Your structures cannot run, but you can always play in ships capable of avoiding unwanted pew pew.

Would you define cloaked as unexpected, or undetectable?
Unexpected includes opponents on the other side of a gate, while undetectable means you know they are present, but cannot find them.
We don't actually have genuine cloaking, per se.



no its just that cloaking is a broken mechanic. i mean all these patches they had to do to fix it, it wasnt until a while ago where bomb squads would decloak each other and all this. BlackOps cant even warp cloaked! capital ships use the same module for something that has 20x larger axis and it still uses the same cpu and powergrid?

broken mechanic, remove it from the game, no one uses it for combat anyways.

For that logic, you don't have non consensual combat at all, then.

It is either a gank, or a misinformed group encounter.

Cloaking is part of the mechanism intended to create non consensual combat. The other part is actually having something to defend.
Gate camps, perversely, are closer to being cloaked simply because the victims don't realize they are entering range of hostiles until it is too late.

As to having something to defend, this only exists right now as anchored structures, and how one side will often try to protect them, if they think they have a chance. This leaves out small groups, as typically only blobs attack or defend regarding structures.

The PvE activities most often threatened by cloaked ships, are far more effort for the cloaked pilot to attack.
A PvE pilot either needs to make a judgement call failure, or a fitting failure, if not a combination of the two, before they are actually at risk. This locks out the cloaked pilot until the described opportunity presents itself.
(both sides defend quite well, which is why stalemates are so common)

With the threat removed from this, admittedly ineffective though it is, would you advocate towards reducing the rewards in null, or replacing the threat with something NPC generated?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2660 - 2013-10-28 19:33:30 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
how about we remove cov ops and cloaking from the game altogether?

Would the context of this request be for consensual PvP only, then?
Your structures cannot run, but you can always play in ships capable of avoiding unwanted pew pew.

Would you define cloaked as unexpected, or undetectable?
Unexpected includes opponents on the other side of a gate, while undetectable means you know they are present, but cannot find them.
We don't actually have genuine cloaking, per se.

I'd define it as "invisible", and ye, you have cloaking. You just want MORE cloaking.
In many games with a cloaking ability, you have ways of detecting the cloaker is there, just not where they are.
You just want to have more ability to hide so you only have to engage when you absolutely want to. And you have the nerve to say it's others that want consensual PvP only.
You do make me chuckle bro.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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