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New blog: All quiet on the EVE Launcher front?

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CCP Aporia
C C P
C C P Alliance
#41 - 2013-03-11 16:26:52 UTC
Tribal Solidarity wrote:
So, while I agree with the issues of using HTTP/1.1, I disagree with the torrent protocol usage.

Tons of ISPs in the UK restrict torrent client usage, as do universities and businesses, making it much harder for people to patch.

And how long will you keep seeding the data on your servers before requiring people to download a full client?

Also, I personally have downloaded patches directly from the server and applied them after download, outside of waiting for the patcher to complete. I haven't done this for a while so it may not be possible but it was a great way of bypassing your servers being swamped on patch day by using mirrors.

And finally, can you guarantee the same throughput/speed of using bittorrent over HTTP/1.1? Or are we looking at ridiculously slow speeds?


Let me start by addressing your previous question:

Bittorrent over HTTP/1.1 should have the same speed as normal HTTP transfers because it is actually "just" the range-header implementation. Bittorrent over HTTP/1.0 depends a little bit on the webserver implementation because there the range-header is emualted using the querystring and the server then has to figure out which parts to send using a custom request handler. But for most real world scenarios I would not expect a big difference in throughput, if any.

The other part is probably more interesting and I should probably have addressed this in the blog itself: You are no longer downloading an installer for the EVE client or it's updates. Instead when you start the launcher, the launcher checks if there was a new EVE version released and if so, it downloads the files it needs to acquire. Since we will always keep the most recent EVE version on the CDN this will make sure that your installation is always up to date. The times of downloading a full client should be gone unless you are installing EVE for the first time, in which case the download is actually a lot bigger than before. But we are looking into utilizing compression methods there, and in the longer run plan on organizing the client resources in a way that a new player can go and use the character creator while the game is still installing all the space assets.
Every update in itself kind of works like the repair tool used to work (which is now simply forcing a re-check of your installation against the information found in the torrent file), e.g. the launcher figures out which files in your installation need an update and only downloads these files then. In the long run this should save on traffic required for updates as well because there is no longer any need for the whole overhead of having an installer executable.

Friend of walking avatars, currently hibernating until he gets to open that door.
Kasuko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-03-11 16:29:30 UTC
I am whole heartedly in agreement with this change! Please CCP do it!

Now with that said I would like to point out that I am behind an ISP that fully throttles ALL P2P traffic and I still want this change.

Bit Torrent is a fully legal, hugely supported and open protocol. Because ISPs throttle this traffic shouldn't affect your decision. If my ISP suddenly throttled Youtube traffic I wouldn't call up Google and demand they implement a different protocol I'd phone my ISP and say "I am a paying customer and I am paying for internet, so please stop preventing my access to the internet!"

If more and more companies are using Bit Torrent in a completely legal way and more and more people call their ISPs saying "Excuse me but your crappy service that I pay for doesn't allow me to do the things that I am paying for" then they will learn their lesson!

Thank you CCP and be sure to use the open standards for Bit Torrent and don't go mutilating it and destroying all the work the community has done!
CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#43 - 2013-03-11 16:30:33 UTC
I put a link to this dev blog in the launcher so there is now a launcher dev blog...in the launcher. I'll just leave you with this bit of knowledge.

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard
CCP Aporia
C C P
C C P Alliance
#44 - 2013-03-11 16:32:18 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Aethlyn wrote:
SamuraiJack wrote:
That alone makes CCP's implementation of this much better than most Torrent installers. Flooding out your upstream just throttles your connection as you cannot send commands due to data floods. Shame Blizzard never took that onboard.

From my experience over the past years, I really think that's intentional and not just happens: Your download slows down as you Approach 99% and the last few bytes take forever (at least for me; not talking about SC2/D3 patching; only their standalone torrent stuff). Once your sharing ratio approaches 1.0 the last few bytes are completed. Something like that is really stupid, especially for people on asynchronous lines (e.g. my upstream is less than 10% of my downstream). Luckily you could trick their implementation by simply restarting the client.


this isn't the fault of the protocol, its the client. Clients try to maintain 1.0 share ratio to keep the network healthy. In CCPs case its entirely different. The network is always healthy since CCP will obviously keep the servers up which upload 24/7.

maybe i am wrong but i don't think that CCP wants to use bittorrent because they have bandwidth issues on patch day - it really sounds like all they want is a more reliable protocol.


You are correct, what we wanted is a more reliable and flexible protocol. Of course, if people want to share as well then that would be great. But we intentionally do not make it a requirement; once you are done downloading you are not seeding unless you want to. And if you are seeding, then always at a speed that you control.

Friend of walking avatars, currently hibernating until he gets to open that door.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#45 - 2013-03-11 16:33:01 UTC
Finally, took some time to implement BT... I hope you do include support for web peers with that (how I do over at EVE-Files) for those that may get blocked by various firewall or IDS software.

/c

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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#46 - 2013-03-11 16:37:20 UTC
Another thing which would help for updating would be pre-release updates.

By that I mean if you're going to go sending out hundreds of MB to a hundred thousand people in the next days patch, then publish it a day or two before, let us be downloading it to a staging directory, and then apply it as necessary (plus any other changes) come patch day.

It would also give the torrent network time to spread itself out.
Sarmatiko
#47 - 2013-03-11 16:56:16 UTC
And what about Launcher 1.4x with integrated login/advanced client settings? This has been used on Serenity for some time but there is no plans to use it on TQ anymore?
Doublewhopper
Temporary Assignment
#48 - 2013-03-11 17:00:32 UTC
Just be sure it works on wine/linux/mac before you even consider to deploy it.

The release of the original launcher did not go to well for everyone and brought much trouble, tinkering and confusion.
CCP Aporia
C C P
C C P Alliance
#49 - 2013-03-11 17:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Aporia
Sarmatiko wrote:
And what about Launcher 1.4x with integrated login/advanced client settings? This has been used on Serenity for some time but there is no plans to use it on TQ anymore?


This is currently on ice until we are done with more pressing aspects. Eventually we would like to see the launcher managing all your EVE installations and no longer have the "one launcher per installation" as it currently is the case.

Doublewhopper wrote:
Just be sure it works on wine/linux/mac before you even consider to deploy it.

The release of the original launcher did not go to well for everyone and brought much trouble, tinkering and confusion.


The internal tests on Mac looked good so far, but again, this is one reason why we are going to run a test in the wild soon. Wine/Linux are not on the list of officially support platforms, so I cannot say anything about whether it works there or not.

Friend of walking avatars, currently hibernating until he gets to open that door.
CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#50 - 2013-03-11 17:10:58 UTC
On this note:

Doublewhopper wrote:
Just be sure it works on wine/linux/mac before you even consider to deploy it.

The release of the original launcher did not go to well for everyone and brought much trouble, tinkering and confusion.


I've been running a beta test on the Mac subforum for the last 3 months, testing some of these changes.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#51 - 2013-03-11 17:13:06 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
I'm not very techno proficient. But I have not had any problems with the launcher and patching. I did have problems with the client freezing. But in the 2nd most recent major patch it seemed to have fixed itself. Possibly either the eve patch or maybe the latest nvidia driver update. Don't know, just happy it's fixed.

As for bit torrent. Don't like this. I suspect it will mean I have to pay for some third party program just to update eve. Your launcher is doing fine by me. So please don't make use of another program mandatory.

If I'm not understanding all this then just ignore. But really I don't want to download and pay for another program just to patch and play eve. Thanks

Just to settle your mind, bit torrent is a way of transferring bits, not a specific type of software. You wouldn't need µTorrent or any kind of software, the Eve Launcher would just send and receive data by other means behind the curtains

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Sedilis
Lead Farmers
#52 - 2013-03-11 17:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sedilis
With the support for the Test server I hope this includes a button people click to build a test server install. Would be great if you could get it to launch and start the log server as well if connected to sisi.

I'm sure giving that some love would help with numbers for your mass tests as well as helping us guys out who have to try and talk members though setting up a Sisi client for our own testing.
T1nyMan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-03-11 17:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: T1nyMan
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PS: this is a fantastic move, well done CCP.
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-03-11 17:25:34 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
this isn't the fault of the protocol, its the client. Clients try to maintain 1.0 share ratio to keep the network healthy. In CCPs case its entirely different. The network is always healthy since CCP will obviously keep the servers up which upload 24/7.

maybe i am wrong but i don't think that CCP wants to use bittorrent because they have bandwidth issues on patch day - it really sounds like all they want is a more reliable protocol.


Of course, it is a thing of the client. This is also something I tried to say. I know there's nothing like that in the basic protocol.

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Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#55 - 2013-03-11 17:26:10 UTC
Yaay :) I used to download major releases through Chribba's torrents anyway, so it's nothing new for me.
Rael Datannen
JesusChrist Lord Way Truth Life
#56 - 2013-03-11 17:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rael Datannen
Inquisitor Kitchner (Page1) I agree. I Urge our beloved DEV to listen to us, past CSM roleplay, and leave us an OPTION to use new BITT+HTTP or stay with HTTP. I feel very strongly on this, being an online game admin/coder since 1990.



(**Added afterthought: READ CLOSELY there are risks, and ways to --REDUCE-- them, so don't make all Eve players subject to Cyberwar Attack than we already are, for Heavens sake**)
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#57 - 2013-03-11 17:38:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
CCP Atropos wrote:
On this note:

Doublewhopper wrote:
Just be sure it works on wine/linux/mac before you even consider to deploy it.

The release of the original launcher did not go to well for everyone and brought much trouble, tinkering and confusion.


I've been running a beta test on the Mac subforum for the last 3 months, testing some of these changes.

Oh, thats part of that test? OK, Im going to run the beta version at the same time as I run the current TQ client and see what happens.

Edit: And what happens? I get a client lockup.

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Demolishar
United Aggression
#58 - 2013-03-11 18:08:19 UTC
Firstly, I know nothing about how any of this works.

But surely this opens avenues of attack for the p2p transfer of "bad" files eg. .exe with keylogger and stuff?
SamuraiJack
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-03-11 18:16:10 UTC
Demolishar wrote:
Firstly, I know nothing about how any of this works.

But surely this opens avenues of attack for the p2p transfer of "bad" files eg. .exe with keylogger and stuff?


No. It doesnt. Stop believing the crap that the media mafia spew.

All the files will be sorted and inspected by ccp and they are checksummed. the client handles it and as such will not be able to "infect" you this way. Despite the fact you will be "copying" files from other pcs they will be checked via ccp's list and dropped if tampered with.

Bittorrent is legit and safe. (as long as you use legit torrents)

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Ryunosuke Kusanagi
#60 - 2013-03-11 18:29:44 UTC
a serious concern here in the US.

With CAS/Six Strikes rolled out, and obviously already claiming false positives on LEGAL files, how can i possibly be affected with EVE Online files essentially "Copyrighted material". I don't really want to start a political debate here, but politics in the US are veering towards the technophobe stage, if it hasn't already, and it is affecting P2P network traffic among other things.