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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Frigates

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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#281 - 2013-03-22 20:20:18 UTC
How do you get those numbers .. the additional transversal can only be achieved by dedicating all (or sometimes more than is available!) lowslots to agility lest the orbit expand out where enemy movement can negate much of it ... experienced that more than once being webbed in my brawling Slicer.

It is why I too believe the 'new' Firetail will be the king of brawlers as it has enough natural agility/speed to stay in nice and tight without having to gimp its lows for same.

Reason why web on the rocket Hook makes a ton of sense is that it adds damage as well as minimize incoming ditto due to explo speed ..
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#282 - 2013-03-22 21:59:58 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Problem is that there is no way to stop these cries outside of nerfing TD to uselessness, because as long as TD will have any use, this tactic will be usable. And this is because speed superiority along with the ranges and speed involved in frigate fights allow for this to happen.

After a TD nerf, the hookbill will use triple web and do the same as before, because only the speed difference allow a ship to fool the tracking of another ship.

The module to blame is not the TD, it's the web.


That's so true. The problem of web is that there is no real way to counter web. While one web is not a big problem two or more webs are. A ship with more medium slots can always dicate range towards a ship with less slots due to the capability to fit more webs.

I think CCP should consider to either limit the number of webs to one per ship or preferably they should provide a low-slot anti-web module which significantly reduces the effect of a web on your ship. This would add some spice since you would be able to counter double-webs (medium slot) for example with two anti-web modules (low slot).


Webs are OP and the AB would be the perfect mod to build in a counter to it with some resistance to webbing strength

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#283 - 2013-03-23 00:17:51 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Webs are OP and the AB would be the perfect mod to build in a counter to it with some resistance to webbing strength

Counter to both web and TD should be the tracking computer.

And I'm not advocating for a web or TD nerf.

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
How do you get those numbers .. the additional transversal can only be achieved by dedicating all (or sometimes more than is available!) lowslots to agility lest the orbit expand out where enemy movement can negate much of it ... experienced that more than once being webbed in my brawling Slicer.

It is why I too believe the 'new' Firetail will be the king of brawlers as it has enough natural agility/speed to stay in nice and tight without having to gimp its lows for same.

Reason why web on the rocket Hook makes a ton of sense is that it adds damage as well as minimize incoming ditto due to explo speed ..

Take incursus, for reference :
base speed : 425 m/s
AB speed : 1077 m/s
AB minus web speed : 431 m/s
AB minus double web : 206 m/s

Combat frigate speed with AB are all around 1000 m/s. If the first one have one web, and the second one have two, then the speed difference is 200 m/s. If both have only one web, speed difference will be roughly the base speed difference (because the web counter the AB, and vice versa).

Then, about web and TD : a web have 60% speed malus. A TD have 50% tracking malus. In the tracking formula, transversale speed and tracking disruption have the exact same influence. A second web will do a 60*0,87 = 52% speed malus, equal to a TD. TD is better only versus the third web for tracking.

Granted the web is less noob friendly than the TD, because you need to induce transversale with piloting, but speed superiority and speed neutering of the ennemy have other advantages ; and most of the time, as I said, kiting at the edge of scram range don't require a TD. TD only add a lol/rage factor people enjoy.

And once your ship is designed to counter turret ships by dedicating 2 mid slots for this, what will you do against missile or drone ships ?

What I mean is only that speed superiority is stronger in itself than TD, and that's why TD don't need a nerf. A nerf to TD would achieve nothing ; condor and hookbill would still be as effective as they are.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#284 - 2013-03-23 01:04:05 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Take incursus, for reference...

You are not accounting for range. Turret tracking is as far as I am aware still based on radial speed, extending ones orbit alleviates any tracking issues quite rapidly in my experience .. those 200m/s mean absolutely nothing if you can't orbit closer than 3-4km instead of 1km for example.

With just one web difference you will not be able dictate range enough for it to impact incoming damage noticeable (again my experience Smile), which is why the brawling Slicer works as majority of ships only carry the one ... ships to be wary off are the 4+ mid hulls as they will supplement very often have a TD to force you to use scorch which combined with speed difference makes you miss .. a lot.
In short: Speed is inconsequential if you do not also have the agility to make use of it (ie. achieve that tighter orbit). If said agility is not present, which is the case for almost all unmodified hulls, then TD will serve you much better than a second web.

As for countering missile and drone boats, the former depends on pilot record/age, most can be burned down before popping .. usually too close for comfort but thats part of the fun .. the latter are irrelevant unless they pack TD's to prolong their drones time-to-live, there is a reason why the sad, sad Worm has not really been seen for quite some time even though it ticks all the right boxes.

PS: Only speaking as from the side of being the "victim" of TD's as Amarr hulls generally do not have the luxury of fitting employing such cowardly tactics (read: prop+tackle is all there is room for, send more mids! Big smile)
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#285 - 2013-03-23 01:30:58 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


After a TD nerf, the hookbill will use triple web


Stacking penalty, how does it work
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#286 - 2013-03-23 01:34:35 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And why should a Heron not be able to kill a combat ship by exploiting its weeknesses ?



a heron can kill a combat frigate, you just need to fit exactly for what your opponent is flying.


and by "fit exactly for what your opponent is flying" you mean "fit to fight a ship that has guns."


I do allot of frigate fights.

I see both sides of this. I do use tds allot with my kestrel (actually I love the fit and have lost close to 100 of them) However the fights are close.


I also do a lot of frigate fights. A kestrel isnt a heron. If it had 5 mids, sure. But it doesnt.
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#287 - 2013-03-23 23:19:39 UTC
Capqu wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Why does the Hookbill get essentially 3 bonuses?

"Caldari Frigate bonuses: +20% to Kinetic missile damage, +10% to EM, Explosive and Thermal missile damage and +10% to missile velocity per level"

Every other ship in this class clearly only gets two bonuses. Is there really any reason to give the ship the bonus for other damage types? Or if somehow you think the current state of affairs where the Hookbill is the best should be preserved, and somehow it deserves 3 bonuses, how about shaving that 10% range bonus to 7.5 or 5?

Another disappointment Fozzie. Take another week to think about this stuff before posting it all. None of this appears to be balancing things off of the already skewed state of affairs.


you're pretty dumb if you think two mutually exclusive bonuses counts as it getting an extra bonus


It already gets three bonused weapons, which is one more than any other navy faction frigate. I think limiting its damage bonus only to kinetic in order to make its ability to choose damage types harder would help close the gap in effectiveness between the Hookbill and other faction frigates.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#288 - 2013-03-24 03:45:08 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
Capqu wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Why does the Hookbill get essentially 3 bonuses?

"Caldari Frigate bonuses: +20% to Kinetic missile damage, +10% to EM, Explosive and Thermal missile damage and +10% to missile velocity per level"

Every other ship in this class clearly only gets two bonuses. Is there really any reason to give the ship the bonus for other damage types? Or if somehow you think the current state of affairs where the Hookbill is the best should be preserved, and somehow it deserves 3 bonuses, how about shaving that 10% range bonus to 7.5 or 5?

Another disappointment Fozzie. Take another week to think about this stuff before posting it all. None of this appears to be balancing things off of the already skewed state of affairs.


you're pretty dumb if you think two mutually exclusive bonuses counts as it getting an extra bonus


It already gets three bonused weapons, which is one more than any other navy faction frigate. I think limiting its damage bonus only to kinetic in order to make its ability to choose damage types harder would help close the gap in effectiveness between the Hookbill and other faction frigates.


I think an interesting compromise would be to make the range bonus apply only to kinetic missiles
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#289 - 2013-03-24 14:23:50 UTC
stop being silly, it's only got 2 bonuses. 1 to damage, which is a bit stronger for kinetic missles, the other to range.

what should be done is to change the damage bonus to be consistent. as i've suggested before, something like 15% for all damage types. a nerf to kinetic damage and buff to the other 3. this means the hookbill would do less damage than now, but be able to choose damage types.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#290 - 2013-03-24 14:49:32 UTC
2manno Asp wrote:
stop being silly, it's only got 2 bonuses. 1 to damage, which is a bit stronger for kinetic missles, the other to range.

what should be done is to change the damage bonus to be consistent. as i've suggested before, something like 15% for all damage types. a nerf to kinetic damage and buff to the other 3. this means the hookbill would do less damage than now, but be able to choose damage types.

Shocked

Compare to the rocket specific hull called Vengeance and tell me again that 15% to all types will not break it spectacularly Smile

Kinetic has the advantage that no one tanks against it except when facing a scouted Caldari themed enemy, base resist is mediocre to begin with on most hulls with T2 Gallente being the exception .. Kinetic is good.

PS: If you meet an enemy that against all odds have tanked Kinetic then swap ammo and watch him drop like a fly regardless of it being unbonused.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#291 - 2013-03-24 15:11:18 UTC  |  Edited by: 2manno Asp
in theory sure. but it's like a 25% reduction in dps to switch out of kinetic, and that doesn't even take into account the resist they may have on the damage type you switch to, or the 11-12 seconds you lose in switching.

if you can afford to lose 25% in dps and the time it takes to do it, then you're controlling range anyway, and it's probably just a matter of killing faster than it is of winning and losing.

it almost never makes sense.

ps - speaking of the vengeance, gimme the double bonus for missles too!
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#292 - 2013-03-24 16:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
The ammo switch is shared with hybrids and to a certain extent projectiles. It is all about doing research, running the numbers and hopefully picking the 'right one' before the fan starts spreading the manure around .. thankfully we live in a FoTM(Y)/Cookie Cutter world so the decision is often made well in advance.
If you are forced to redo the selection mid-fight then you are already dead as the enemy must have done his due diligence and performed the necessary research/number-crunching or he has you locked down controlling range completely.

Note: Above only really applies to frig/dessie fights. Cruisers and above fights are normally long enough to allow for second guessing oneself after the lead starts flying.
2manno Asp wrote:
ps - speaking of the vengeance, gimme the double bonus for missles too!

15km rocks on the Vengeance .. hmm, I have learned that things/thoughts that make me drool uncontrollably is bad for game balance so best not Smile
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2013-03-24 20:15:27 UTC
2manno Asp wrote:
stop being silly, it's only got 2 bonuses. 1 to damage, which is a bit stronger for kinetic missles, the other to range.

what should be done is to change the damage bonus to be consistent. as i've suggested before, something like 15% for all damage types. a nerf to kinetic damage and buff to the other 3. this means the hookbill would do less damage than now, but be able to choose damage types.


If anything hookbill DPS is low although normally well applied due to the range and number of mids for fight control, I honestly would not have a problem with the bonus for other damage types being raised to 15% as it seems to be getting a bit of a nerf compared to the others at the moment but reducing the kinetic bonus at all would be a big nerf.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#294 - 2013-03-24 21:08:14 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
2manno Asp wrote:
stop being silly, it's only got 2 bonuses. 1 to damage, which is a bit stronger for kinetic missles, the other to range.

what should be done is to change the damage bonus to be consistent. as i've suggested before, something like 15% for all damage types. a nerf to kinetic damage and buff to the other 3. this means the hookbill would do less damage than now, but be able to choose damage types.


If anything hookbill DPS is low although normally well applied due to the range and number of mids for fight control, I honestly would not have a problem with the bonus for other damage types being raised to 15% as it seems to be getting a bit of a nerf compared to the others at the moment but reducing the kinetic bonus at all would be a big nerf.

I disagree. Hookbill is already OP. It doensn't need "omni-damage" as well.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2013-03-24 22:24:39 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:
2manno Asp wrote:
stop being silly, it's only got 2 bonuses. 1 to damage, which is a bit stronger for kinetic missles, the other to range.

what should be done is to change the damage bonus to be consistent. as i've suggested before, something like 15% for all damage types. a nerf to kinetic damage and buff to the other 3. this means the hookbill would do less damage than now, but be able to choose damage types.


If anything hookbill DPS is low although normally well applied due to the range and number of mids for fight control, I honestly would not have a problem with the bonus for other damage types being raised to 15% as it seems to be getting a bit of a nerf compared to the others at the moment but reducing the kinetic bonus at all would be a big nerf.

I disagree. Hookbill is already OP. It doensn't need "omni-damage" as well.


Have not lost a comet in a 1v1 to a hookbill since armour tanking 1.5, only fit that worries me is kiting mwd dual td fits with backup.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#296 - 2013-03-24 23:19:03 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:
2manno Asp wrote:
stop being silly, it's only got 2 bonuses. 1 to damage, which is a bit stronger for kinetic missles, the other to range.

what should be done is to change the damage bonus to be consistent. as i've suggested before, something like 15% for all damage types. a nerf to kinetic damage and buff to the other 3. this means the hookbill would do less damage than now, but be able to choose damage types.


If anything hookbill DPS is low although normally well applied due to the range and number of mids for fight control, I honestly would not have a problem with the bonus for other damage types being raised to 15% as it seems to be getting a bit of a nerf compared to the others at the moment but reducing the kinetic bonus at all would be a big nerf.

I disagree. Hookbill is already OP. It doensn't need "omni-damage" as well.


Have not lost a comet in a 1v1 to a hookbill since armour tanking 1.5, only fit that worries me is kiting mwd dual td fits with backup.


Go to heyd and 1v1 Iam Kikas if you want to feel what a **** a proper hookbill can be.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#297 - 2013-03-25 01:44:07 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:
2manno Asp wrote:
stop being silly, it's only got 2 bonuses. 1 to damage, which is a bit stronger for kinetic missles, the other to range.

what should be done is to change the damage bonus to be consistent. as i've suggested before, something like 15% for all damage types. a nerf to kinetic damage and buff to the other 3. this means the hookbill would do less damage than now, but be able to choose damage types.


If anything hookbill DPS is low although normally well applied due to the range and number of mids for fight control, I honestly would not have a problem with the bonus for other damage types being raised to 15% as it seems to be getting a bit of a nerf compared to the others at the moment but reducing the kinetic bonus at all would be a big nerf.

I disagree. Hookbill is already OP. It doensn't need "omni-damage" as well.


Have not lost a comet in a 1v1 to a hookbill since armour tanking 1.5, only fit that worries me is kiting mwd dual td fits with backup.


Backup is ovepowered and needs a nerf.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#298 - 2013-03-25 10:51:57 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
[
Kinetic has the advantage that no one tanks against it except when facing a scouted Caldari themed enemy, base resist is mediocre to begin with on most hulls with T2 Gallente being the exception .. Kinetic is good.

PS: If you meet an enemy that against all odds have tanked Kinetic then swap ammo and watch him drop like a fly regardless of it being unbonused.




Hmm base kinetic resistance 2nd best one shield, and bonused on Gallente, that make it probably the best unbonused resistenca out there.

Also I'd consider it wise to look at kinetic when facing Gallente as well, since hybrides do Kin/Therm.

So a lot of Caldari missile ships are Kin bonused, and Hybrides are kin bonused, so if every ship in EVE would be equaly used Kinetic would be the most seen damage type out there.

Both Gallente and Caldari line are mainly kinetic.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#299 - 2013-03-25 17:24:52 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Hmm base kinetic resistance 2nd best one shield, and bonused on Gallente, that make it probably the best unbonused resistenca out there...

Base resist does not mean 'shields only', argument would be valid if all ships were shield tanked, but thankfully even at the height of both nano age 1 and 2 (sun is setting on 2 now) that never occurred. Also, second best on shields means it will hardly ever be tanked against, something I as a laser user know all too well (EM/Therm are always hardened first) .. and on armour it is pitiful through and through.
Q: Have you ever used a Kin hardener if you had an explosive or thermal ditto lying around, assuming you have just the one slot open? If so I'd wager it was against a specific and known enemy/ship/fit.
Mike Whiite wrote:
...So a lot of Caldari missile ships are Kin bonused, and Hybrides are kin bonused, so if every ship in EVE would be equaly used Kinetic would be the most seen damage type out there...

3/2 Kin/Therm ratio is as far as T1 hybrid ammo drops (starting at almost 50/50) if I recall, switches in favour of thermal with T2 .. so technically correct that it is mostly Kin but again, as a laser user, that almost constant ratio is outright godly (MF starts 'OK' but quickly tilts towards EM) .. and believe it or not EM is not good at all, Scorch works only because it can usually be applied from outside the danger zone so time-to-kill is irrelevant.

Plus you have drone bays (however small) on most Gallente hulls skewing the damage type argument even further.

Once more for posterity: Kin is good.
Flash Bomb
Forgotten Union of Knackered Tradesfolk
#300 - 2013-03-25 18:50:52 UTC
Hope the changes work well be nice to see my firetail in black again. [hint hint]