Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I think it is a great sign for the proposed Navy Frig changes that the discussion is covering pretty much anything and everything other than the specific changes themselves! I also think it is great that such an interesting sidebar discussion of related topics is being constructively covered.

As for TDs:

TDs are an EWAR that magnifies the effects of range control, especially at the frig combat level.

If you have range control on an opponent you can mitigate the effects of any turret DPS your opponent is fielding with an unbonused TD – this is true if you are flying a MWD TD condor or a scram/web/TD hookbill. Alternatively with range control you can negate the effect of an opponent TDing you by controlling your range or reducing your tracking in order to make sure your turret DPS is still effective. TDs just turn the constant and generally well understood issue of range control in frig engagements into an all or nothing proposition and that seems to be what people have an issue with.

So the OPness is a range control problem more than a specifically TD problem. TDs just magnify the issue against the sub-set of PvP frigs fielding turrets (ie. the most popular subset in game), so it is very fair to ask the question of whether magnifying the importance of something that is so key to frig combat (range control) is a good thing or not.

The reason the Slicer is so wtfpwned by TDs is because its range control is completely dependant on being outside of scram range – and a single scripted unbonused TD makes its DPS untenable outside of scram range. The reason the Hookbill is so OP with a TD is because of its already strong range control abilities (both MWD kite fit, and scram/web fit).

So TDs are definitely an issue, and I think it will always be a contentious issue, but for my perspective reducing the range control of the hookbill slightly (agility nerf) is a pretty good nerf to the problem of OP TDs on them. And I am pretty okay with a Slicer being countered by a TD (and it is the reason I would never support a 3rd mid on the hull – it would be worse than the current Condor craze). I also hope that CCP makes TDs (and TCs/TEs) affect missiles soon. But I agree that a very very close eye needs to be kept on the balance of TDs as an unbonused EWAR and I think Fozzie and the rest of the balance team knows and understands this already.

Im thinking anti missile lasers.

Or both ideally.

There should be a anti-missile deterrent for launchers (working defender missiles), turrets (flack cannon), and utility highs (chaff launcher).

Optionally some of these defenses might also be effective against drones, but that would necessitate drones getting a rework in the first place to be more effective (harder to kill, obedient, smarter).

Of course, drones need to be reworked anyway as far as balance against each racial type, and the interface needs to be reworked to make them easier to control effectively (similar to controlling your other weapons systems). Drones slots, if you will.

Defender missiles were a bad idea mkay? Anyhow i don't think introducing a way to **** over missiles would make TD's balanced.

Just reduce the effectiveness on them so that instead of being awesome on frigates they turn to being just good.

Well unbonused ECM is bad, unbonused damps are bad, why shouldn't unbonused TD's be bad? (Unless you have two of each)

Speaking of damps, or rather the boost they could use, why is it they only affect lock range/speed?

Why don't they damp all electronics .. should apply their dampening to a targets sensor strength as well (ie. debuff prior to throwing ECM around) .. hell, let them be able to damp cloaks/stabs/etc. as well for some extra utility (combine with changing super point immunity to a very high built-in stab count for 'lulz'), I miss shooting Gallente recons!

Edit: Whoops, drifted off topic there .. but I stipulate that it is CCP's fault (at least I am consistent!) for dragging their feet on the eWar revamp.

Dude ewar isn't useless

Have you tried fighting a dual damp condor? Its ******* ridiculous..


But anyhow i think ewar should be useful but not great on unbonused ships, but thats just me.

Problem is that it's not only you, and that there s no real arguments against EWAR besides the "it's OP".

As I said, EWAR is only good with speed superiority, because that's the only way to use it offensively : the protection the EWAR provide is not counterable without speed, so if you don't have speed superiority that will only prevent the ennemy to use some tactics (defensive use).

If EWAR is not useful enough, the defensive use is impossible, and only speed superiority module are useful (it's already almost the case).

Then, the only ships able to use EWAR will be fast shield ships, because only the offensive use will be possible, and only the ship able to stack at least two module will have enough of an effect to consider using it.

The dual SD condor is not more ridiculous than a dual rep incursus : catch the condor, and he is ******* dead ; kite the incursus, and he is ******* dead.

In frigate warfare, TD don't rule *any* thing, speed superiority does. That's why a lot of people consider 3 mid slot for AB+scram+web the minimum to be competitive for a brawling frig. And that's why Hookbill are so powerful : 5 mid slots allow for the best speed control ability, on top of missiles not affected by tracking and then impossible to fool with speed superiority. TD is only a cherry on the cake, only widening the gap between the speed leader and the speed controlled.

But nerfing web may not be the solution, hence why I think the only problem TD may show could be a problem with the hull (condor, hookbill) or with small missiles overbuffed last time (GMP skill on rockets + LML multiple buffs).

PS : tl;dr : unless people start using TD instead of web, no, TD aren't overpowered.

Sorry but these changes are total fail.
The firetail needed a buff--->Okay. Well done
Slower Hook with more cap??? --> Fail. CCP reduces the Hook to only two fits that will work. Complete fail. These 2 fits won´t need the additional cap^^...... CCP really hates caldari.
Comet buff---> Whaaaaat? It really didn´t need buff. Complete fail again.
Slicer get a buf and a lil bit more cap---------> A beginning. Slicer already has HUGE problems because only 2 mid slots available. But it would need +0.5 instead of some +0.2 cap/s to make it really competitive again.

1) Navy frigs: only RF Firetail needs fix. It is bad when it takes months to slightly fix ONE frig.

2) T1 frigs need some polishing. Look:

Changed merlin role to brawler, but didn't fixed secondary stats = "can't damp that" frig.

Incursus is more agile than rifter, speed is only 50 m/s lower, dps with nulls is better on almost all ranges, tank is better, almost everything is better. The king is dead long live the king?

3) EAFs need a revamp badly. EAFs are worse than T1 analogs.

4) Intys need some love, especially battle ones. Crow sux since nano nerf, maybe it is time to un-sux it? Battle intys like ranis/sader have too narrow niches coz of pirate/faction frigs.

Generally I want to see more kiters and more fast and agile ships countering kiters.

PS for guys complaining about dualdamp condor: it isn't ridiculous, it is you flying slow stuff, unable to protect yourself from kiters.