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[Odyssey] T1 Frigate Polish Pass and Naglfar fix

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#181 - 2013-03-13 09:50:34 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Seriously?

2 TDs on condors are "nearly useless"? Three RSDs on the hookbill? What, do you want them to be able to be as horribly annoying as they are now with only 1 of these modules fitted?

Seriously?

Michael hit at the core of the issue here; ewar, and its ability to be run perpetually, at the frig level. Why the hell can the condor run MWD, point, plus two TDs, forever, exactly?

If CPU cost is so "insane", how come so many ships seem to fit and run them with no problems? Hookbills and Condors are of course the worst offenders here, but any form of ewar is crippling at the frigate level, and that just compounds the issue of more midslot ships being nearly universally better than ships with less mids. Add to this the fact that shield tanks are simply faster than armor tanks, and that shield tanks naturally work better with more mids (ofc) and the problem grows even more noticeable.

A ship with a 3/4/2 layout is simply better than a ship with a 3/2/4 layout (edit here, AT THE T1 FRIG LEVEL!) Period. With so many hulls being revamped to be useful, it only grows harder to balance them correctly. It almost feels like CCP should try to correctly balance 1 or 2 frigs per race and get them actually working right BEFORE trying to add or change more.

The Rifter could use some love, but of course, I am biased here; I fly Minmatar. The Rifter is not terrible, but it isnt exactly good. I will leave discussion of "what it needs" for people not quite so attached to it, I think.

Have you ever seen the tank of these ships ? No ! Because they don't have one ! A ship sacrificing its tank for EWAR deserve a bit of effectiveness !

As I said, EWAR is half the power of these deadly frigates, the other half is speed. And once you neutered speed, they flying killmail.

And no, shield tank are not universaly better than armor tank anymore. Say hello to the new rigs ! Did you flown an armor frigate recently ?

What make the Condor and Hookbill that deadly is not the EWAR, it's the missiles. Missile dps at range is huge, and don't decrease at close range, which make them a very nasty long range weapon. But like all kiters, lm kiters are paper thin, and their dps is still very low compared to a short range ship, so just catch the pesky kiter, and melt him ! You only need an MWD to do this. That's enough of a weakness IMO.
pyronatic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2013-03-13 11:04:47 UTC
Rifter needs 1 more medium or low slot to compete with the other 3 main combat frigates ( Mainly the merlin).
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#183 - 2013-03-13 15:05:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
The LML-damp/TD condor/hookbill fits aren't a problem of ewar being too effective. They're paper-thin and do awful damage. It's just that they get a ton of benefit from skirmish links and in certain places like FW, skirmish links are everywhere.

Midslots on a frigate hull are precious. Every ship that fits a TD or RSD sacrifices a ton to do so.
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#184 - 2013-03-13 18:28:30 UTC
and i juuuust finished capital missiles too. :( sighs.. me sad now
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2013-03-13 18:29:39 UTC
//Rifter
Okay, another take.

This is just an out of the blue comment and since slots-changes were commented just some two posts above.

So, let's say Slasher takes the actual crown of tackling - officially.

What would you think of actually moving things a bit more around on Rifter, so it really stands out?

Be it a

5/2/3 (so an aggressive 5-highslot feature)
or
3/2/5 (lowslot variant)

Having two meds, it would be as efficient as a tackler but more of a brawler with lows for some flexibility for gank or armor or speed tank fits. I know two meds sucks, but let's face it, Slasher is the tackler boss now - at least for that particular task.

And I would give another small of HP for Tristan, Punisher, Merlin (and eventually Rifter).

I probably missed something... (/braces for troll-quote :D!)

I wouldn't like to see Rifter with 4 Meds unless the hull evolves more around some sort of tank bonus, because we do not need a wannabe-Slasher.

I'd love to play around suggestions around Rifter's bonuses, but it breaks a lot of the playstyle of other players. Which is again why I'd love to see a cloned hull, for the upteenth time (which is to be denied again ;D).

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

baker43
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2013-03-13 18:32:59 UTC
No diversification at all on the different dreads soon. Sad to see.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#187 - 2013-03-13 18:37:10 UTC
Tristan needs more fittings, then it would be ok (although the useless bonus is kinda meh)

Punisher is going to be **** no matter what you do with it unless its completely redesigned.

Rifter pretty much the same.



As for the breacher, i don't think its bad at all but w/e

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#188 - 2013-03-13 19:58:12 UTC
Interesting comments on the Punisher from folks.

I can see it lacking a bit as a solo ship, but it is the go to ship for most gang work.

Trying to gank a ball of Punishers usually only ends in a painful death for the attackers and an amused group of Punishers.

Not all frigate PVP is 1v1.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Alek Row
Silent Step
#189 - 2013-03-13 20:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alek Row
It may be a stupid ideia, or overpowered, or underpowered, whatever.

First, it has been a great work by Fozzie and his team, at least there are much, MUCH more different frigates flying around. It's impossible to get everything right at the first approach, they sort of failed Rifter, and they sort of failed Slasher, I'll try to explain my pov. Slasher is great at the moment, I know.

With missiles they clearly stated the new missile path: Breacher -> Talwar -> Belicose -> etc, nice progression.
But with the falloff bonus they missed a good chance to create a falloff path. Stabber, Vagabond, Wolf, there is no falloff T1 frig.
Slasher is fast, have a scram bonus, and maybe could replace one of his bonus with a falloff one and still have the role of a kiter with a 4/3/3 slot layout (or even 4-2-4). Rifter could have a 4/4/2 with the current bonus (a dmg/rof would be awesome but maybe a bit too much).

The thing is, the Rifter with 4/4/2 could be worse than the Slasher we have now (speed matters).
And a Falloff slasher 4/3/3 maybe could not work as I imagined (tracking issues per example), I don't know.

Maybe this is a terrible ideia, and you are free to tell me to shut up and to sit down in my corner.
Cheers
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#190 - 2013-03-13 20:26:35 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Nice to see that Naglfar will be useful. I wish you would fix Phoenix too because it's a hardly can be called a Dreadnought.


There's a reason I refer to the Phoenix as the Dreadnot....
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2013-03-13 21:57:05 UTC
Quote:
And a Falloff slasher 4/3/3 maybe could not work as I imagined (tracking issues per example), I don't know.


A falloff Slasher would not always be upfront as it would be able to hit things with ACs from a longer distance (although it isn't that much either), so tracking shouldn't be that much of a problem, especially for using small guns. And if you use 125mm, that have some mad tracking speed already by nature.

I'd say the Slasher is solid as it is. Changes to bonuses to even out the balance between frigates is okay, but I'd say the slot layout makes it well appropriate for a "Fixed" status.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#192 - 2013-03-14 00:46:29 UTC
I'm chiming in to say I'm liking the falloff idea, keep the Rifters current slot layout and give it a falloff bonus, that would be nice and it could sport some pretty deadly scram/web/ab fits and even have room for a neut, giving it an advantage over the more popular scram-range kiters (Rail Incursus/Merlin, Rocket Condor, Hookbill etc)

Or even a shield-arty kiting fit, it would be slower than a Slasher, but it would have far superior tank/range/damage.

Thoughts?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#193 - 2013-03-14 01:46:06 UTC
I guess I can't stress enough how good the Tristan and Kestrel are right now. They really don't need a buff.

The Breacher is fairly rare, but I've seen our guys seem to be successful flying it. Probably doesn't need an upgrade either.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2013-03-14 03:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Garr Earthbender
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tristan needs more fittings, then it would be ok (although the useless bonus is kinda meh)

Punisher is going to be **** no matter what you do with it unless its completely redesigned.

Rifter pretty much the same.



As for the breacher, i don't think its bad at all but w/e


Nah, it just happens to be that a punisher sucks at 1v1s. It's a better fleet ship. Best fast(ish) T1 tackle frig out there! It's tank will allow it to take that 1-2 more volleys so that the slower tackle ships can get their point/web on.

Edit: with a standard AB fit, the thing can pack on a T2 400mm plate and get 9.5K EHP, and with a MWD, 8.9K ehp. Not shabby for a shi*** frigate.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#195 - 2013-03-14 08:48:05 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tristan needs more fittings, then it would be ok (although the useless bonus is kinda meh)

Punisher is going to be **** no matter what you do with it unless its completely redesigned.

Rifter pretty much the same.



As for the breacher, i don't think its bad at all but w/e


Nah, it just happens to be that a punisher sucks at 1v1s. It's a better fleet ship. Best fast(ish) T1 tackle frig out there! It's tank will allow it to take that 1-2 more volleys so that the slower tackle ships can get their point/web on.

Edit: with a standard AB fit, the thing can pack on a T2 400mm plate and get 9.5K EHP, and with a MWD, 8.9K ehp. Not shabby for a shi*** frigate.



The dps on it is god damn terrible

The tank is good but even for a fleet (Unless you're talking massive blobs) a frig with 3 midslots and some damage is better. Sure it can have some niche roll but that doesn't change that its mostly terrible.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Tub Chil
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#196 - 2013-03-14 09:53:03 UTC
tbh tormentor is the most 'meh' frigate of all,
I'm don't think you'll do major changes, but it would be great to see it as a drone boat. iirc you were going to do that at some point.
Lidia Caderu
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#197 - 2013-03-14 10:27:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lidia Caderu
Can Incursuses cap and cap recharge be increased in order to substitute last bonus nerf? It will not affect much fits with AAR but will be very useful for fits with 2 reps.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#198 - 2013-03-14 10:56:57 UTC
Lidia Caderu wrote:
Can Incursuses cap be increased since last bonus nerf? Or any other characteristics...


The Incursus does not have cap issues...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kesi Raae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#199 - 2013-03-14 11:09:32 UTC
I'd like to see the Punisher get a 4th turret, sure it'll still have 2 mid slots and poor tracking, but if you can manage those issues you're rewarded with some pretty good and rangey dps, whereas now if you can control the fight well enough to apply your laser damage you're still likely to be killed.

Plus I really don't want the Punisher to be made any more similar to the Tormentor and Executioner by giving it a 3rd mid, they're already treading on each other's toes enough as it is and it would be boring.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#200 - 2013-03-14 12:13:53 UTC
Vayn Baxtor wrote:
//Rifter
Okay, another take.

This is just an out of the blue comment and since slots-changes were commented just some two posts above.

So, let's say Slasher takes the actual crown of tackling - officially.

What would you think of actually moving things a bit more around on Rifter, so it really stands out?

Be it a

5/2/3 (so an aggressive 5-highslot feature)
or
3/2/5 (lowslot variant)

Having two meds, it would be as efficient as a tackler but more of a brawler with lows for some flexibility for gank or armor or speed tank fits. I know two meds sucks, but let's face it, Slasher is the tackler boss now - at least for that particular task.

And I would give another small of HP for Tristan, Punisher, Merlin (and eventually Rifter).

I probably missed something... (/braces for troll-quote :D!)

I wouldn't like to see Rifter with 4 Meds unless the hull evolves more around some sort of tank bonus, because we do not need a wannabe-Slasher.

I'd love to play around suggestions around Rifter's bonuses, but it breaks a lot of the playstyle of other players. Which is again why I'd love to see a cloned hull, for the upteenth time (which is to be denied again ;D).


TBH i want to see the Rifter go a Split Weapon ship, haave bonuses for projectile turrets and rockets/light missiles being a 2/2 weapon fit for the highs and either move a low slot to the mid or a mid slot to the low, but thats just me, i want a baby phoon :P

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