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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Author
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2013-02-12 11:56:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Qvar Dar'Zanar
Andski wrote:
Now let's be honest, if that thread was about somebody in TEST or Goonswarm the community's reaction would have been "lol botter." Let's not pretend otherwise. The fact that this guy is in an ~honourable~ corp based in hisec seems to indicate, to some, that he plays within the rules, when for all we know he's been running a market bot the whole time and is just trying to start drama in response to being punished appropriately.

"But hurr they didn't remove the ISK until he sent it to E-UNI!"

The ISK wasn't there when he was banned - he liquidated his assets after the suspension period was over.


What ban man? He donated the money after coming back from the suspension and then biomassed. The money was all the time there during the only suspension.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#102 - 2013-02-12 11:58:23 UTC
Orbital Dyke wrote:

He wasnt botting CCP interpreted his actions as botting because they didnt understand what he was actually doing in theory 'attack what you dont understand' in this case


Aye, is not botting, it's only using a scripted external tool to manage 10.000 market orders per second while AFK, how can CCP says what was the feeling in his soul? :)


Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-02-12 11:58:57 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
Andski wrote:
Now let's be honest, if that thread was about somebody in TEST or Goonswarm the community's reaction would have been "lol botter." Let's not pretend otherwise. The fact that this guy is in an ~honourable~ corp based in hisec seems to indicate, to some, that he plays within the rules, when for all we know he's been running a market bot the whole time and is just trying to start drama in response to being punished appropriately.

"But hurr they didn't remove the ISK until he sent it to E-UNI!"

The ISK wasn't there when he was banned - he liquidated his assets after the suspension period was over.
.


What ban man? He donated the money after coming back from the suspension and then biomassed. The money was all the time there during the only suspension.


Suspension is commonly mistaken for the word Ban. I think it's an American thing.

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Lovely Dumplings
My Little Pony Appreciation Corporation
#104 - 2013-02-12 12:01:35 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Suspension is commonly mistaken for the word Ban. I think it's an American thing.



It's that denial to instant gratification thing. Might as well be a ban. You should hear the screaming during downtime.

www.minerbumping.com

Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2013-02-12 12:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Qvar Dar'Zanar
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Suspension is commonly mistaken for the word Ban. I think it's an American thing.


Then Adnski is making it up while he says that the money wasn't there when the 'ban' was applied. Not even CCP has argued that it didn't.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#106 - 2013-02-12 12:03:05 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
What ban man? He donated the money after coming back from the suspension and then biomassed. The money was all the time there during the only suspension.


I'm quoting your CEO, straight from his thread. After his ban (or "suspension") he liquidated his assets and donated the ISK to E-UNI, who sanity checked it by petitioning. If they had doubts about the legitimacy of the ISK, why were they so shocked when the decision was to remove it, rather than sighing in relief and being glad that they didn't spend tons of that ISK on unrecoverable assets (i.e. skillbooks and ship replacements) that would have gained a massive negwallet later on?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#107 - 2013-02-12 12:04:10 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Suspension is commonly mistaken for the word Ban. I think it's an American thing.


Then Adnski is making it up while he says that the money wasn't there when the 'ban' was applied. Not even CCP has argued that it didn't.


The fact is irrelevant to the investigation and allegations made. We've said that at least some of the isk was both there and liquid.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#108 - 2013-02-12 12:04:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Suspension is commonly mistaken for the word Ban. I think it's an American thing.


Then Adnski is making it up while he says that the money wasn't there when the 'ban' was applied. Not even CCP has argued that it didn't.


We're only using the information that was supplied on your forum. You should speak to the OP of that thread about making stuff up. Also, what the hell is this:

Jim Parsons wrote:
I've always wondered if what CCP does can be subject to a lawsuit (either by one person or as a class-action) and I believe this would definitely qualify, because CCP is essentially committing FRAUD by not allowing people to benefit from its service as they intended and their security team can, without any recourse, cause irreperable harm in both time and real life money lost by one or more players.

This needs to go to court, and CCP must be held accountable.


You guys clearly need more quality control on your posting.

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Nemo deBlanc
Resource Acquisition Unlimited
#109 - 2013-02-12 12:05:27 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:


I'm not sure how asking for where we've made a statement I disagree with (and I'm the only one that matters in this instance) is "cluelessness" but suffice it to say that I would highly recommend you not engage in such activity. You can choose to ignore that and make a self righteous post defending yourself after we take action if you like.


Speaking of self righteous...

Are we to interpret this as official policy change on the issue of cache scraping? 9 months ago, you were fine with it, have things changed since then? If so, I guess enjoy gloating over wrongly banned market accounts.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2013-02-12 12:09:14 UTC
Funny thing coming from a Goons guy Lol
I have no special interest in this, just wanted to point out what it seemed to me like nonsense. Peace and love.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#111 - 2013-02-12 12:12:10 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
What ban man? He donated the money after coming back from the suspension and then biomassed. The money was all the time there during the only suspension.




Accordingly to CCP Sreegs previous posting that isk was about to be confiscated. The fact "John" gave it to Eve-U before it was confiscated changes nothing about the final destination of said isk.

The only one that should be here explaining himself for his actions and put Eve-U in that position is "John", not CCP Sreegs.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

K1netic
Doomheim
#112 - 2013-02-12 12:13:33 UTC  |  Edited by: K1netic
Oh noes some1 who got banned says he didn't do anything wrong. Where have i seen that before? oh.. right, every botter does it.

Thank you CCP for removing another botter. I couldn't care less if he was a prominent member of E-UNI a botter is a botter.
Whitehound
#113 - 2013-02-12 12:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Wescro wrote:
Typing a price is also unnecessary, as simply rolling the mousewheel changes the price by 0.01 ISK. I'm sure you knew that though. =P

No, I did not, but there is a lot of things I do not know. Like for instance why you are defending botters now.

I would still double check my prices to be sure and take more than 2 seconds for it, because mouse wheels can jump and prices can change by more than 0.01 ISKs.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#114 - 2013-02-12 12:21:33 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
I'm very sure that you can't modify 30 orders within a minute - whether with macros or by hand.


You can use the in-game browser to display market data, which makes it a trivial task to write software that detects when you need to update you orders. All you need to do is use javascript to cycle trough the item you want to sell, this updates the local cache which you can parse to get the items sell prices. From there on all you need to do is verify the weather or not you have the lowest price.

You can list the correct price need to undercut by .1 isk, or maybe even manipulate the copy/paste buffer directly to contain the correct value. In the end all you need to do is find the correct order, edit and paste the value. It probably takes more then 2 sec for reach order, but you can do a lot of orders each minute.

This is a public know and legal way of managing market orders.



In no way this can be legal. I'd call it botting.

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance

Garcia Arnst
Doomheim
#115 - 2013-02-12 12:33:15 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

I'm not sure how asking for where we've made a statement I disagree with (and I'm the only one that matters in this instance) is "cluelessness" but suffice it to say that I would highly recommend you not engage in such activity. You can choose to ignore that and make a self righteous post defending yourself after we take action if you like.


So are you saying that scraping the Market cache is not okay, or only okay until you decide it constitutes botting?
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#116 - 2013-02-12 12:33:37 UTC
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
[

I would not recommend anyone do this and I'd ask that you not tell our players what you consider to be legal. The EULA does a decent enough job of that and is contrary to your statement.


This has been discussed before on the official forums, where dev/gm posts said this method was not against the rules as the player edits the market order.


then by all means give up a link to it.


GM Karidor wrote:
11) Market cache scraping to automatically collect, collate and upload market data.
As long as the IGB-specific procedure to open the market window for a specific item (and thus having the client creating cache data for that item) exists, you can use it. Keep in mind, though, that changes to this may happen and this procedure may stop working at any time. Also, reading and evaluating the clients cache data with third party tools is permitted, however modifying cache files used by the client is not and falls under modification of client files.


Link to post

The development forum has the dev posts explaining how you are allowed to parse the cache files.

This concept has been used for years, and the legality has been confirmed more then once, as long as you are doing the price update yourself you are not breaking any rules.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-02-12 12:39:24 UTC
You're talking about something that is quite different from merely collecting market data for eve central, fyi

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#118 - 2013-02-12 12:39:24 UTC
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


I'm not sure how asking for where we've made a statement I disagree with (and I'm the only one that matters in this instance) is "cluelessness" but suffice it to say that I would highly recommend you not engage in such activity. You can choose to ignore that and make a self righteous post defending yourself after we take action if you like.


Speaking of self righteous...

Are we to interpret this as official policy change on the issue of cache scraping? 9 months ago, you were fine with it, have things changed since then? If so, I guess enjoy gloating over wrongly banned market accounts.


I've never agreed with it. My stance of "Don't modify the client" hasn't changed since day one. That GMs for some reason have a different interpretation than I do is irrelevant.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Whitehound
#119 - 2013-02-12 12:42:36 UTC
Garcia Arnst wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

I'm not sure how asking for where we've made a statement I disagree with (and I'm the only one that matters in this instance) is "cluelessness" but suffice it to say that I would highly recommend you not engage in such activity. You can choose to ignore that and make a self righteous post defending yourself after we take action if you like.


So are you saying that scraping the Market cache is not okay, or only okay until you decide it constitutes botting?

No. He says it is ok for you to continue making self righteous posts.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#120 - 2013-02-12 12:43:01 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
The only allegation that I can recall with any substance was that one. Whether the paranoid conspiracy theory community has had a separate trial process and decided other crazy batshit insane garbage was true I can't attest to as I don't subscribe to that mailing list and instead deal in the realm of fact.


<3

Think this pretty-much sums up the paranoid state of the community at large. Lol

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com