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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

First post First post
Author
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#781 - 2013-02-13 01:34:13 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:

Trying to label all members of E-Uni as supporters of botting is pretty low, even for you Grath and completely without foundation. Look to the public E-Uni forum thread on the matter and you will see many members making more conservative assessments of the situation. Note also that upholding the EULA at all times is built into the corp rules at the highest level:


What I see is a bunch of E-Uni guys posting in support of Kelduum right up until a couple of hours ago. There were even suggestions of suing CCP over space pixel money. I see far more support than condemnation, and almost universal support from Eve-University leadership.

So. Yeah. Eve University explicitly supports botting in this one case.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#782 - 2013-02-13 01:35:00 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
At the end of the day CCP says the "John" was botting, that's proof enough for me and many others.


This is truth.

Had this been Goons or Test having a market bot banned Kelduum would be patting suggs on the back and telling him good job catching and punishing the botter.


Kelduum Revaan supports botting.....does Eve University as well?


Eve University has a tough choice ahead. They can either replace keldumm and start to show everyone that the corporation will not tolerate this type of behavior or its will risk losing its hard earned reputation.

No botting. No CSMs that fudge the and blur the line for their own interests.


Down with Kelduum on the CSM. Step down immediately. The people demand it.



Go read the Ivy League forums real quick. There's lots of director level support coming out for Kelduum.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Shamon Hussad
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#783 - 2013-02-13 01:35:26 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The truth is that "John" wrote a program to accelerate his trades and he was banned for botting.

Using the cache files to get information, using javascript to alter the paste buffer, and regular use of the IGB javascript functions.
Doing any of these things aren't illegal according to the EULA,
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#784 - 2013-02-13 01:36:29 UTC
Shamon Hussad wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The truth is that "John" wrote a program to accelerate his trades and he was banned for botting.

Using the cache files to get information, using javascript to alter the paste buffer, and regular use of the IGB javascript functions.
Doing any of these things aren't illegal according to the EULA,


So... do you do these things? Would you like to post the name of the character that does them?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#785 - 2013-02-13 01:37:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Shamon Hussad wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The truth is that "John" wrote a program to accelerate his trades and he was banned for botting.

Using the cache files to get information, using javascript to alter the paste buffer, and regular use of the IGB javascript functions.
Doing any of these things aren't illegal according to the EULA,


Well obviously they are, someone got banned for presumably doing what you just posted, although we'll never know the full extent of what he was and was not doing.

This needs repeating, as far as CCP Sreegs is concerned cache scraping is against the EULA although it is a widespread practice amongst 3rd party tools, he doesn't enforce it, presumably because it is widespread, hard to detect and some GMs disagree with his interpretation of the EULA.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#786 - 2013-02-13 01:37:29 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:


Clutching at straws? Its common sense that if he was botting, he wouldn't give the program unless he's an idiot. If he wasn't, some assumption was made.


Or he decided to help CCP in exchange for a lighter punishment. It wouln't be the first exploit someone has freely handed over.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#787 - 2013-02-13 01:41:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Aren Madigan wrote:
Clutching at straws? Its common sense that if he was botting, he wouldn't give the program unless he's an idiot. If he wasn't, some assumption was made.


A couple key things:

CCP isn't going to disclose whether or not they received any source code from a customer, period. They rarely disclose correspondence from their customers and the last example of them doing that was in 2007.
Even if he did give them source code, that doesn't mean that it is what he used.

Again, you're taking his story at face value because he was a ~valuable~ member of your particular group.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#788 - 2013-02-13 01:42:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:


Clutching at straws? Its common sense that if he was botting, he wouldn't give the program unless he's an idiot. If he wasn't, some assumption was made.


Or he decided to help CCP in exchange for a lighter punishment. It wouln't be the first exploit someone has freely handed over.


Odd then that he's quit right after then, isn't it?

Khanh'rhh wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
And you just proved yourself wrong by one thing. They INTERPRET the evidence, they themselves don't provide the entire basis of the evidence. Their word can make a difference, but they have to back their words up with something. What the person did, or said, have the evidence itself to give context to. It isn't based PURELY on their word.


K.

You must live in some parallel universe where the members of the jury examine the blood samples, perform an analysis, and come to the conclusion that the evidence as presented is evidence, and not just someone saying this here is evidence of this here crime.

Because unless that is what happens in your universe, yes, you very well are taking someone's word for it.


Except they generally show that evidence. Not to mention they actually put the evidence on the table. In a way anyone with experience could refute it. In fact, the defense is able to hire their own experts to look at the reports and evidence. In otherwords, to convince the jury and judge, they have to present more than just "their word". They have to present the why and how.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#789 - 2013-02-13 01:43:25 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Go read the Ivy League forums real quick. There's lots of director level support coming out for Kelduum.

-Liang



If the directorship inside Eve University wants to stand by him then they clearly support living in the grey area when concerning botting at the very least. At the very worst they are housing more botters inside the corporation that are "good people" and "long time contributors" to E-UNI.

Either way they are tarnishing their reputation by the minute with no action or statements being made.

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CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#790 - 2013-02-13 01:43:43 UTC
Hello everyone,

This thread is growing at an exponential rate, however, it is full of theory and 'what if's?'.

The reality is that CCP Sreegs and the Security Team have carried out due diligence and have acted within the interests of CCP and the EVE Online player base. In addition, CCP Sreegs has answered multiple queries and has provided whatever information we can provide without compromising third parties. As a company, we take the privacy of our players very seriously.

Not everyone is going to agree that the course of action taken is the right one but what I can assure you is that our Security Team have tools way beyond what any player has access to and logs which identify certain behaviors.

When I say this thread is done, I mean it is done. You may think you have an entitlement to make a duplicate thread but you really do not. There are plenty of blogs and third party forums discussing this subject so feel free to join in if you see fit. As far as we are concerned, the CCP Security Team have answered the question and the matter is closed.

Thank you.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#791 - 2013-02-13 01:50:59 UTC
So here's a question.

Lets say there exists a program or website that lists the current markets lowest sell/highest buy. An example of such a website that has been running for years is: http://eve-central.com/.

Lets say I have a program that pulls certain data points from that website into microsoft excel (spreadsheet software).

And lets say I use a basic functionality of the software to do something like: Col B = Col A + .01


The question is: When updating my market orders, is it illegal to Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V the contents of Col B to update my orders?
If yes, which part of the EULA makes that illegal?
CCP Manifest
CCP Retirement Home
#792 - 2013-02-13 22:17:47 UTC
So Navigator says it's done, guess that means I'll just leave this here.

My sphere was brought into this when Destructoid emailed me, Since this discussion happened primarily here, figured I would link it in the interest of completeness, being a History major at university.

http://www.destructoid.com/eve-corporation-disputes-isk-confiscated-by-developers-244851.phtml

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