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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#761 - 2013-02-13 01:19:40 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Sorry, thats not the way this works.


Stopped reading right there. When you make an argument, you hold everyone to the same standards. Don't get to change the standards to match with your own views. I don't care how you want to wrap it up.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#762 - 2013-02-13 01:20:05 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Its easy to detect them. Its not easy to detect them with 0% rate on false positives.


No, the 100% no false positives part is easy. It's detecting them at all that's hard.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#763 - 2013-02-13 01:20:08 UTC
All you 'defenders' of 'John' seem to have missed the bit (Which Kelduum posted in his very first post on Eve Uni forums) that CCP asked 'John' for his programs, & John provided them, and CCP then made the call that he was botting with them.
So.... thats pretty conclusive proof for me that CCP got it right, since they had direct access to the code used. And also direct proof that Kelduum knew all about what John was doing, and is attempting to defend him anyway.

So yea, Kelduum & Eve Uni by proxy in trying to defend Kelduum are going way way down atm

The fact he was suspended & not outright banned is probably a result of said Co-operation and CCP being lenient enough to not ban him when he thought it was legit (The EULA specifically says automating to accelerate acquisition of items is illegal, but it's confusable I guess, we aren't all laywers or highly english literate). And were prepared to let him continue to play provided he didn't continue using anything like it.
Sreegs has said the Isk should have been confiscated at that time already & it got overlooked in it all.

No conspiracy here people. And highly transparent process that Kelduum was fully aware of at the time.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#764 - 2013-02-13 01:21:35 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

CCP does, and that's all that matters.

For them and their actions. Not when forum posters try using it as a reason though.

You sound like you're making your opinion objective.


Name one good famous debate that was built on the foundation of "this person says so" with nothing to back it up.


Nigh on every single case that uses evidence in a court will appoint an expert witness whose sole job it is to tell the Judge and Jury what the evidence means, because as a lay-person they're unable to interpret the evidence. The judge/jury have little scope other than to accept what the expert witness says as proof.

Oh wait, I'm sorry, were you just aiming for petty rhetoric?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#765 - 2013-02-13 01:21:43 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Sorry, thats not the way this works.


Stopped reading right there. When you make an argument, you hold everyone to the same standards. Don't get to change the standards to match with your own views. I don't care how you want to wrap it up.

If only you stopped posting there too.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#766 - 2013-02-13 01:22:25 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:


In it's current state it does nothing to alleviate the public's fears of misconduct or mistake.


The only people questioning this are a handfull of scrubs from E-Uni and most likely their alts. Quite frankly this stinks of botters worried about their tool being detectable.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#767 - 2013-02-13 01:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
*removed personal attack* - CCP Eterne
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#768 - 2013-02-13 01:23:45 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
On the other hand, I'm also quite disturbed that there isn't an official and well documented means to rebut both the CCP security teams accusations and actions. That there isn't an official process that the accused can participate to the extent of providing additional facts about one's own case means the process is very susceptible impropriety and abuse. In it's current state it does nothing to alleviate the public's fears of misconduct or mistake.


You are free to take CCP to court. Legal disputes can certainly be settled in an official and well documented way. Sreegs has referred to this option implicitly.

Also, as a member of the public I do not recognize your depiction of our feelings. I am pretty convinced that the only true misconduct here can be attributed to Kelduum, when he chose to try to create dissent among the public to support his own questionable cause (keeping botted isk).
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#769 - 2013-02-13 01:24:17 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
All you 'defenders' of 'John' seem to have missed the bit (Which Kelduum posted in his very first post on Eve Uni forums) that CCP asked 'John' for his programs, & John provided them, and CCP then made the call that he was botting with them.


Or he didn't provide all of them, or CCP assumed he didn't provide all of them (which could be a rightful assumption depending on what they detected, or not). Swear, the simplest things sometimes.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#770 - 2013-02-13 01:25:00 UTC
It's worth mentioning Sreegs isn't "making an argument" or "stating an opinion" he is reporting the result of an investigation.

To say otherwise is basically assuming he banned an innocent player and THIS IS ALL A HUGE CONSPIRACY GUYS!!!

Frankly, I have come to expect the latter from the posters in this thread.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#771 - 2013-02-13 01:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
At the end of the day CCP says that "John" was botting, it's Team Securitys' job to detect and deal with bots, and as CCP employees I have little doubt in their professionalism, despite CCP Sreegs being a former Goon Twisted. Without them revealing their bot detection methods there is only so much they can say on the subject, and what they have said is more than enough proof for me, and by the sounds of it a great deal many other people.

Edit, it's halfpast stupid O clock and I suffer from canttypeforshititus this early in the morning.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#772 - 2013-02-13 01:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Aren Madigan
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Nigh on every single case that uses evidence in a court will appoint an expert witness whose sole job it is to tell the Judge and Jury what the evidence means, because as a lay-person they're unable to interpret the evidence. The judge/jury have little scope other than to accept what the expert witness says as proof.

Oh wait, I'm sorry, were you just aiming for petty rhetoric?


And you just proved yourself wrong by one thing. They INTERPRET the evidence, they themselves don't provide the entire basis of the evidence. Their word can make a difference, but they have to back their words up with something. What the person did, or said, have the evidence itself to give context to. It isn't based PURELY on their word.

Khanh'rhh wrote:
It's worth mentioning Sreegs isn't "making an argument" or "stating an opinion" he is reporting the result of an investigation.

To say otherwise is basically assuming he banned an innocent player and THIS IS ALL A HUGE CONSPIRACY GUYS!!!

Frankly, I have come to expect the latter from the posters in this thread.


Or considering that he might have made a mistake. Its not black and white except in your own mind.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Its easy to detect them. Its not easy to detect them with 0% rate on false positives.


No, the 100% no false positives part is easy. It's detecting them at all that's hard.

-Liang


Not while actually detecting them its not, which were the key words there.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#773 - 2013-02-13 01:28:18 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
At the end of the day CCP says the "John" was botting, that's proof enough for me and many others.

His name is "John" and he was botting.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#774 - 2013-02-13 01:30:12 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:


Stuff



Trying to label all members of E-Uni as supporters of botting is pretty low, even for you Grath and completely without foundation. Look to the public E-Uni forum thread on the matter and you will see many members making more conservative assessments of the situation. Note also that upholding the EULA at all times is built into the corp rules at the highest level:

Quote:
Our members do not exploit or otherwise violate the Eve Online EULA

For all members of EVE University and Ivy League, actions which breach the End User Licence Agreement (EULA) for Eve Online as set by CCP, are prohibited. Examples of these are account sharing and purchasing of ISK or in-game items for real money. Any member found to have engaged in any actions forbidden in the EULA will be immediately removed. In the event that a member has mistakenly breached the EULA, they are encouraged to petition CCP themselves via the normal channels to resolve the issue. Similarly, if a member has reason believe another player is violating the EULA, they are encouraged to petition them, and must not take any action in-game.


So let's have less of your inane rhetoric/flame shall we?
Dreadknoght Lomaree
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#775 - 2013-02-13 01:30:29 UTC
I say that instead of deleting all the ISK, just give it to me. I'll take good care of it! Cool
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#776 - 2013-02-13 01:31:21 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
All you 'defenders' of 'John' seem to have missed the bit (Which Kelduum posted in his very first post on Eve Uni forums) that CCP asked 'John' for his programs, & John provided them, and CCP then made the call that he was botting with them.


Or he didn't provide all of them, or CCP assumed he didn't provide all of them (which could be a rightful assumption depending on what they detected, or not). Swear, the simplest things sometimes.


Clutching at straws here.
And you either know it, or need some serious education in logic & reason.
Also a lesson in Occams Razor (Spelling of name blah, tired).
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#777 - 2013-02-13 01:32:39 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
And you just proved yourself wrong by one thing. They INTERPRET the evidence, they themselves don't provide the entire basis of the evidence. Their word can make a difference, but they have to back their words up with something. What the person did, or said, have the evidence itself to give context to. It isn't based PURELY on their word.


K.

You must live in some parallel universe where the members of the jury examine the blood samples, perform an analysis, and come to the conclusion that the evidence as presented is evidence, and not just someone saying this here is evidence of this here crime.

Because unless that is what happens in your universe, yes, you very well are taking someone's word for it.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#778 - 2013-02-13 01:33:19 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
All you 'defenders' of 'John' seem to have missed the bit (Which Kelduum posted in his very first post on Eve Uni forums) that CCP asked 'John' for his programs, & John provided them, and CCP then made the call that he was botting with them.


Or he didn't provide all of them, or CCP assumed he didn't provide all of them (which could be a rightful assumption depending on what they detected, or not). Swear, the simplest things sometimes.


Clutching at straws here.
And you either know it, or need some serious education in logic & reason.
Also a lesson in Occams Razor (Spelling of name blah, tired).


Clutching at straws? Its common sense that if he was botting, he wouldn't give the program unless he's an idiot. If he wasn't, some assumption was made.
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Fraternity.
#779 - 2013-02-13 01:33:39 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Sorry, thats not the way this works.


Stopped reading right there. When you make an argument, you hold everyone to the same standards. Don't get to change the standards to match with your own views. I don't care how you want to wrap it up.


you mean you stopped reading on the first line of grath telkin post directly addressing you?

Roll ******* scrubs...
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#780 - 2013-02-13 01:33:55 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
At the end of the day CCP says the "John" was botting, that's proof enough for me and many others.


This is truth.

Had this been Goons or Test having a market bot banned Kelduum would be patting suggs on the back and telling him good job catching and punishing the botter.


Kelduum Revaan supports botting.....does Eve University as well?


Eve University has a tough choice ahead. They can either replace keldumm and start to show everyone that the corporation will not tolerate this type of behavior or its will risk losing its hard earned reputation.

No botting. No CSMs that fudge the and blur the line for their own interests.


Down with Kelduum on the CSM. Step down immediately. The people demand it.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]