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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Della Monk
Monastery of Drakes
#661 - 2013-02-12 23:57:09 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
being told it was removed because it was illegally obtained is insufficient


No it isn't. That should be the beginning and end of it.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#662 - 2013-02-12 23:57:22 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Andski wrote:
317B ISK Gone from Goonswarm: Who Watches the Watchmen?

tl;dr: Goonswarm member with spotless record gets temp banned for suspected botting. Is told to go away when he professes innocence and provides proof. Decides to just leave EVE and donates 300 billion ISK to Goonswarm. Goonswarm asks CCP if its all legit, CCP removes it. Goonswarm asks why even leave it with him if it was legit, and is concerned that CCPs security team have no oversight. Goonswarm is told to go away. CCP's security team have no oversight?

clearly the reaction would be "oh man this ban was clearly undeserved and Goonswarm should have kept the 327B"


'lol botter'

Andski is right, that is exactly how the EVE community would react if it was us.


It is, but at the same time you wouldn't cry about it like babies so it's kind of moot point :P
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#663 - 2013-02-12 23:57:52 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Except the whole part where he used a web-assisted program that allowed him to perform actions faster than they can actually be performed. Kelduum knew about this, no matter how you try to spin it, the evidence is in his initial post.



There's a web program that lets you do things faster than they can be done? Sign me up.


It's explained in the E-UNI OP. You should try reading it, it's not hard.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#664 - 2013-02-12 23:58:21 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Andski wrote:
317B ISK Gone from Goonswarm: Who Watches the Watchmen?

tl;dr: Goonswarm member with spotless record gets temp banned for suspected botting. Is told to go away when he professes innocence and provides proof. Decides to just leave EVE and donates 300 billion ISK to Goonswarm. Goonswarm asks CCP if its all legit, CCP removes it. Goonswarm asks why even leave it with him if it was legit, and is concerned that CCPs security team have no oversight. Goonswarm is told to go away. CCP's security team have no oversight?

clearly the reaction would be "oh man this ban was clearly undeserved and Goonswarm should have kept the 327B"


'lol botter'

Andski is right, that is exactly how the EVE community would react if it was us.


It is, but at the same time you wouldn't cry about it like babies so it's kind of moot point :P


On the contrary, I hate botters regardless of affiliation.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#665 - 2013-02-12 23:58:51 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Callie Cross wrote:

You sure are comfy with your knowledge of their proof. Whether or not they can, how do you know so well?? I would suspect that CCP would ban with far less than 100% proof. If it walks, talks, etc.

So taking the liberty to say that you know for a fact that CCP has proof seems a bit much. Not that this point really matters at all in any way, the people saying that Kelduum is defending botting are either trolling or lacking adequate mental acuity in my opinion.


Yes, I'm quite confident in my ability to detect botting, hacking, spoofing, and cheating in my games. I may not catch every case, but I'm quite positive about the ones I do catch. I assume CCP to be at least as competent as me.

-Liang



This really isn't a conversation about whether or not he was botting though. I'm sure a pretty decent size of the player base knows something about botting and detection methods even if that isn't their day job as is yours. This is a fairly tech minded crowd.

Everyone keeps jumping on this EUNI CEO SUPPORTS BOTTING bandwagon, but no one can provide a single word of source backing it up.

Where is that source? If it's provided, I'll beg apologies, but it seems to me that this has turned from a simple case of "Why wasn't the ISK taken immediately? Can I get an answer?" To "Self entitled ego mad man leader of E-Uni launches personal attack on CCP and uses brainwashed army to support botting!!!"

Come on...


Paragraphs 4 and 5 of Kelduum's post on Eve-University forums are an implicit endorsement of botting.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#666 - 2013-02-12 23:59:01 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Callie Cross wrote:


Ummm no. Explaining that someone did *not* automate a process ("botting") is not supporting a botter.


Kelduum Revaan wrote:
he was a station trader, and a very good one at that, playing trade markets in EVE like a professional, using the common tools available, as well as custom built tools, but never automating anything to do with the EVE client himself


Kelduum Revaan wrote:
as well as custom built tools, but never automating anything to do with the EVE client himself



Kelduum Revaan wrote:
never automating anything


Except the whole part where he used a web-assisted program that allowed him to perform actions faster than they can actually be performed. Kelduum knew about this, no matter how you try to spin it, the evidence is in his initial post.


It's really unbelievable, and this character is a member of the CSM...

The Tears Must Flow
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#667 - 2013-02-12 23:59:47 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Except the whole part where he used a web-assisted program that allowed him to perform actions faster than they can actually be performed. Kelduum knew about this, no matter how you try to spin it, the evidence is in his initial post.

Sometimes I go to eve-central to see what the prices of an item are in regions other than the one my character is in. This allows me to obtain that information faster than I could without that website's help. Apparently I'm a botter.

If using programs, web-based or otherwise, to assist you in doing things in EVE faster than you could without them is considered "botting", then I think a majority of station traders in EVE need to be banned. Heck, even PvPers should be banned for using fitting-management programs. Without them, you'd have to test all your fits in game and that would take longer.
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#668 - 2013-02-13 00:01:13 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Moneta Curran wrote:

This Kelduum character should resign. No politician should get away with embezzlement.

If one infamous CSM member can show the good grace to step down after an impulsive drunken sneer at the expense of some random clown, Kelduum should certainly give up his seat after this attempt to hide botted isk in plain sight.

The fact that he feels entitled to the botted isk is hilarious, the way he tried to create public outrage over this appalling.
It merely demonstrates that he is completely unfit to be on the council.

Are you daft?

E-Uni receives an unsolicited donation of all of a player's ISK as he decides to quit the game. Kelduum, knowing this player was involved in disciplinary action for potential botting to obtain ISK, isolates this donation away from E-Uni assets to prevent it from being used for corp activities, and then contacts CCP to determine the legality of this ISK.

How do you get from that to an accusation of "embezzlement" or an attempt to "hide" botted ISK? Kelduum could have simply allowed the money to be used in the corporation. The question is, would it have been confiscated if Kelduum hadn't said anything to CCP? Or, was Kelduum (and by extension in this case, E-Uni) essentially punished for his due dilligence?


It shouldn't surprise anyone that not all botted isk is discovered immediately.

It cannot be deemed a punishment that the isk is taken away if the isk is actually botted. The isk was never his in the first place and it certainly wasn't his call to use it for whatever purpose he saw fit. He did not lose any of his stuff, you see.

His actions toward getting it cleared with proper authorities are fine, his response to the result of their investigation is a spectacular show of bad judgement.

His response is so bad, that one could question whether he was ever prepared to give it up in the first place.

His response is so bad, in fact, that it illustrates an overbearing sense of entitlement. The fact that he tries to manipulate the public opinion of the customer base in his own personal interest only shows that he is not fit to represent them.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#669 - 2013-02-13 00:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Borlag Crendraven
Mallak Azaria wrote:


On the contrary, I hate botters regardless of affiliation.


That's not what I was suggesting at all. You wouldn't have your entire alliance backing up a botter after the botter gets caught, and crying about not getting that isk for yourself. You'd be much more likely to point and laugh at the guy being stupid enough to get caught and for doing it in the first place.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#670 - 2013-02-13 00:01:58 UTC
Do you want Kelduum representing you on the CSM?

I know I sure dont.

The hand waving, spin and rhetoric being espoused by his minions is just a cover now for his slip of greed and his willingness to look the other way at botting if it is beneficial to himself or his corporation.

What happens to him at E-Uni is their business, him remaining on the CSM is all of our business however.

Anyone willing to overlook and try an re interpret rules to the benefit of their own interests has no place on a council that is supposed to champion fair play and the community as a whole.


Remove Kelduum from the CSM NOW!

Its the right choice.



[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#671 - 2013-02-13 00:02:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Paragraphs 4 and 5 of Kelduum's post on Eve-University forums are an implicit endorsement of botting.

-Liang

No, they are an endorsement of the described activities as not botting.
Kathern Aurilen
#672 - 2013-02-13 00:02:35 UTC
Nyla Skin wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

The fact is that we did insofar as we could being that we were dealing with a third party. This party wanted to be treated specially rather than like a normal customer and we simply do not operate that way.

:Edit: to state that escalation isn't the issue in a topic titled quite hilariously dramatically "Who watches the watchers" is a bit of a misstep IMO


My issue is precisely your policy of not discussing moderation with other parties. You can claim that you are merely operating within that policy which is all nice and dandy and true, but I think that policy is wrong in the first place.

Ugh, I have spoken. I will now leave.
I think the problem EUni is having a problem with is more the policy of not AIRING someones ELSE'S EvE personal business(be it bans or wallet statuses). Yes EUni was brought in when the money was sent to them, and CCP should have notified them when they removed the money from their wallet, but NO other info should have been included.

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#673 - 2013-02-13 00:04:15 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Remove Kelduum from the CSM NOW!

Its the right choice.

Why? His term is almost over and (unless I'm mistaken) he is not seeking reelection.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#674 - 2013-02-13 00:06:04 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Except the whole part where he used a web-assisted program that allowed him to perform actions faster than they can actually be performed. Kelduum knew about this, no matter how you try to spin it, the evidence is in his initial post.

Sometimes I go to eve-central to see what the prices of an item are in regions other than the one my character is in. This allows me to obtain that information faster than I could without that website's help. Apparently I'm a botter.

If using programs, web-based or otherwise, to assist you in doing things in EVE faster than you could without them is considered "botting", then I think a majority of station traders in EVE need to be banned. Heck, even PvPers should be banned for using fitting-management programs. Without them, you'd have to test all your fits in game and that would take longer.




Actually, you can obtain that information in game at the same speed using alts. Apart from that, you're really reaching far with the assumption that programs allowed by CCP are infact botting. The guy was updating a market order every 2 seconds for up to 20 minutes a day. You can't do that through normal gameplay & that's why he was banned for botting, there is no dispute to that.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Callie Cross
Tax Code
#675 - 2013-02-13 00:07:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Paragraphs 4 and 5 of Kelduum's post on Eve-University forums are an implicit endorsement of botting.

-Liang



My understanding of this was that he looked at a webpage that contained data he had input, and then acted upon them. If that is the case, how is that botting?

I don't really want to argue whether or not it is botting... that's for CCP to decide (and they did). But Kelduum at this point doesn't know if they found something other than that (nor do we).

You yourself said that CCP would be 150% sure before banning. According to Kelduum's facts, that's not 150% proof. So there was either more (which Kelduum didn't know (or at least didn't reveal so it moot)), or Kelduum was in the mindset of "he was not botting". Therefore again, not supporting botting.
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#676 - 2013-02-13 00:07:20 UTC
Moneta Curran wrote:
His response is so bad, that one could question whether he was ever prepared to give it up in the first place.

His response is so bad, in fact, that it illustrates an overbearing sense of entitlement. The fact that he tries to manipulate the public opinion of the customer base in his own personal interest only shows that he is not fit to represent them.

This isn't about an unwillingness to give it up, it's about CCP's response making it appear that the ISK was confiscated illegitimately, and any attempts on Kelduum's part to assauge that impression met with further reinforcement of it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#677 - 2013-02-13 00:08:15 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Paragraphs 4 and 5 of Kelduum's post on Eve-University forums are an implicit endorsement of botting.

-Liang


No, they are an endorsement of the described activities as not botting.


You know, Kelduum knew that the guy was botting before he ever made his post. He knew that what the guy had been doing had been ruled botting as well. So really, what I get out of this is that Kelduum and Eve-University (I read the forum thread) explicitly endorse what they KNOW is botting. But they want it called something else because their best brosef forever did it?

Cool, how about we call it "hacking the game client" or "automating game actions" or "roboting the game" or something?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#678 - 2013-02-13 00:10:12 UTC
Andski wrote:
317B ISK Gone from Goonswarm: Who Watches the Watchmen?

tl;dr: Goonswarm member with spotless record gets temp banned for suspected botting. Is told to go away when he professes innocence and provides proof. Decides to just leave EVE and donates 300 billion ISK to Goonswarm. Goonswarm asks CCP if its all legit, CCP removes it. Goonswarm asks why even leave it with him if it was legit, and is concerned that CCPs security team have no oversight. Goonswarm is told to go away. CCP's security team have no oversight?

clearly the reaction would be "oh man this ban was clearly undeserved and Goonswarm should have kept the 327B"

Poor, poor Goonswarm. Luckily you are above public opinion, amirite?

To the OP:

If both parties could remove themselves from the situation I think they would both admit they have made mistakes. At that point some resolution based upon a common understanding could be reached.

Creating this thread is not the way to go about it. Take a step back because there can be no "winners" the way events are progressing.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#679 - 2013-02-13 00:10:54 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Paragraphs 4 and 5 of Kelduum's post on Eve-University forums are an implicit endorsement of botting.

-Liang

No, they are an endorsement of the described activities as not botting.


Except the activities were botting & I don't believe that Kelduum is stupid enough to not know this.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#680 - 2013-02-13 00:11:33 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Paragraphs 4 and 5 of Kelduum's post on Eve-University forums are an implicit endorsement of botting.

-Liang



My understanding of this was that he looked at a webpage that contained data he had input, and then acted upon them. If that is the case, how is that botting?

I don't really want to argue whether or not it is botting... that's for CCP to decide (and they did). But Kelduum at this point doesn't know if they found something other than that (nor do we).

You yourself said that CCP would be 150% sure before banning. According to Kelduum's facts, that's not 150% proof. So there was either more (which Kelduum didn't know (or at least didn't reveal so it moot)), or Kelduum was in the mindset of "he was not botting". Therefore again, not supporting botting.


The guy wrote an application that accelerated his actions beyond what is normally attainable. CCP ruled it botting. CCP Sreegs has come on this very thread and been quite emphatic that the guy was botting.

THE GUY WAS BOTTING.

And Kelduum explicitly endorses this form of it. And now that he has, so has the rest of Eve-University. And that's not even where it stops - now Kelduum has taken it upon himself to directly and intentionally cross the line of being a CSM member to "help CCP" into being a raging baby throwing a tantrum and deliberately and willfully harm CCP.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.