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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#561 - 2013-02-12 22:22:46 UTC
Alicia Fermi wrote:

Sreegs says the fact that the player in question was botting cannot be disputed. You obviously do not believe Sreegs. If Screegs produces evidence, what stops you from doubting it? You clearly do not think Sreegs is of good character because his word at this point in time is insufficient.

Of course, CCP are never going to release their detection methods: that is only going to make it easier for botters to evade detection.

We are left with trusting CCP and, if we do not, voting with our wallets. Frankly Kelduum is destroying what credibility he had left which, for me, is very sad to see. At one point in time I thought he was above using EVE University as his own private army of righteous indignation.


I understand why they won't post their methods to some extent. That's fine. I'd kind of like to know what exactly he was doing that falled under botting so I could avoid it if I ever made a station trading alt with some of the CCP approved programs and Javascript methods that they provide to be used in the in game browser, but hey, fine and dandy if they don't. Just gotta be careful. But yes, I question CCP. I question the player accused of botting, I question everything until I see it with my own eyes. I won't always get answers and I understand that, but questioning things is how one learns. About general things, people, everything. Its rather futile at times, but hey. Not to say I can't trust, but sometimes it gets pulled in both directions, so knowing the whole story before making any real judgement is the sensible thing. Right now half the puzzle is missing and will remain missing likely, at this point I'm just saying that the people judging on the speed of the transactions as their only basis? Are being kind of silly. Bots would be a lot faster. Now maybe there was a noticeable pattern that a human couldn't replicate, or maybe it happened the instant some things changed, or any number of things. Don't really know.

But it still doesn't change one thing. They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else. I can see why much of E-UNI is upset over it. Likely the only reason they had it investigated in the first place was to make sure he didn't get it AFTER his ban through some unsavory method or along those lines and because it would have been investigated anyways so they didn't want to spend it on anything until it was cleared.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#562 - 2013-02-12 22:24:54 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
Entity wrote:
Don't worry. His opinion is both moot (since explicit permission was already given), and unenforceable, because reading files on your filesystem is not something that can typically be detected/identified as being a cache decode (heck, it could be me simply copying a client install too, or my AV doing a check), unless CCP installs rootkits on our machines and checks what programs are reading the EVE/cache folders, which I'm sure would go over well with the community ;-)


While there is no way to prevent people from reading the files, they could use encryption to make the content useless.


I apologize for the aside: that's actually not true. The hackers have access to the software and hardware that is decrypting it, as well as the decrypted contents in memory. I spend a great deal of time working around this problem every day, and all day yesterday.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#563 - 2013-02-12 22:26:00 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else.


An oversight that they fixed.
Orlacc
#564 - 2013-02-12 22:26:05 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Entity wrote:

Don't worry. His opinion is both moot (since explicit permission was already given), and unenforceable, because reading files on your filesystem is not something that can typically be detected/identified as being a cache decode (heck, it could be me simply copying a client install too, or my AV doing a check), unless CCP installs rootkits on our machines and checks what programs are reading the EVE/cache folders, which I'm sure would go over well with the community ;-)


Generally speaking it's much easier to detect things that people do in game than things that people do out of game. That said, the guy was obviously not banned for using the cache. He was banned for botting.

-Liang



Why is this so hard for some of you people to comprehend? No fine line. No grey area.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#565 - 2013-02-12 22:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Liang Nuren wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
A 30m sp character, means play at least 14 month.
CCP though he use market bot from beginning so remove all his "illegal" 300B ISK because of a 14 days ban.


Yes. What's the problem here?

-Liang

He thinks forefeiture of illegally gained ISK and length of ban time are related somehow, is what I'm gettting from his fittingly repetitive, almost bot-like posts.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#566 - 2013-02-12 22:28:28 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else.


Clinging on to a mistake that was both acknowledged & fixed is a moot point. The fact that your CEO is trying to use this as leverage only further proves that he is no longer suitable for the position of CEO or his CSM position.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#567 - 2013-02-12 22:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Aren Madigan wrote:
Alicia Fermi wrote:

Sreegs says the fact that the player in question was botting cannot be disputed. You obviously do not believe Sreegs. If Screegs produces evidence, what stops you from doubting it? You clearly do not think Sreegs is of good character because his word at this point in time is insufficient.

Of course, CCP are never going to release their detection methods: that is only going to make it easier for botters to evade detection.

We are left with trusting CCP and, if we do not, voting with our wallets. Frankly Kelduum is destroying what credibility he had left which, for me, is very sad to see. At one point in time I thought he was above using EVE University as his own private army of righteous indignation.


I understand why they won't post their methods to some extent. That's fine. I'd kind of like to know what exactly he was doing that falled under botting so I could avoid it if I ever made a station trading alt with some of the CCP approved programs and Javascript methods that they provide to be used in the in game browser, but hey, fine and dandy if they don't. Just gotta be careful. But yes, I question CCP. I question the player accused of botting, I question everything until I see it with my own eyes. I won't always get answers and I understand that, but questioning things is how one learns. About general things, people, everything. Its rather futile at times, but hey. Not to say I can't trust, but sometimes it gets pulled in both directions, so knowing the whole story before making any real judgement is the sensible thing. Right now half the puzzle is missing and will remain missing likely, at this point I'm just saying that the people judging on the speed of the transactions as their only basis? Are being kind of silly. Bots would be a lot faster. Now maybe there was a noticeable pattern that a human couldn't replicate, or maybe it happened the instant some things changed, or any number of things. Don't really know.

But it still doesn't change one thing. They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else. I can see why much of E-UNI is upset over it. Likely the only reason they had it investigated in the first place was to make sure he didn't get it AFTER his ban through some unsavory method or along those lines and because it would have been investigated anyways so they didn't want to spend it on anything until it was cleared.


Let's suppose for a moment that you were in CCP's place. You have a player that you can PROVE was botting. Yes, prove. Beyond any shadow of any possible doubt, ever. In a court of law if you needed or wanted to. But you ****** up and didn't take away his ISK before his suspension was over and he gave it all to a CSM member/friend and ragequit.

The CSM member makes a petition asking if he can keep the ISK, and no he really can't. Whoops. Now the CSM member is doing everything in his power to torpedo you and permanently damage the company you work for. He's claiming his friend didn't bot and is actively defending the man's good character. He's trying to hold his CSM status over your head and his influential position over the subs of hundreds of new players over you to force you to let him keep the ISK. He's got all his frieds and trying to wield the power of his corp to do the same.

Now, what would you do?

-Liang

Ed: Remember, this is a high profile case and will probably be "precedent setting". Allowing the proceeds from bot-gathering-donated-to-friends to remain in game has obvious consequences.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#568 - 2013-02-12 22:31:01 UTC
The unistas backing Kel's play look as foolish as he does.

I would have much more doubt had E-Uni not contacted CCP about the ISK originally. Nothing screams "This is not legit isk" more than that action. Especially since its from a corp member that Kel had held in such high regard. For Kel to think such a highly regarded member was botting, enough so to question his donation to CCP, says all that really needs to be said.

Unistas here question people here who believe he was botting while on the other hand their corp officially "turned the ISK in to CCP" because it was from/potentially botting.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#569 - 2013-02-12 22:32:20 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:

Eve Uni: "CCP, we think something is fishy about this 330b isk we got from a donation from someone in our corp who was suspended for market botting. Can you check it outto make sure its all legal?"

CCP: "Ok we will check into this"

Eve Uni: "Ok, thanks"

CCP: "Yes, that ISK is the result of botting activity and will be confiscated."

Eve Uni: "What do you mean? How did you come to this conclusion?"

CCP: "The Isk was confiscated because it was affiliated with botting behavior"


I don't think that's how it went down. It sounds like it was more like:

Eve Uni: "CCP, we think something is fishy about this 330b isk we got from a donation from someone in our corp who was suspended for market botting. Can you check it outto make sure its all legal?"

CCP: "Oh, uh, yeah, thanks for reminding us. We're going to take all that cuz it was illegal."

Eve Uni: "You're just figuring this out now? Why didn't you take it earlier?"

CCP: "Go away, you're not involved, we can't talk to you."

Basically, the way it went down makes it sound like the money would never have been touched if Kelduum hadn't brought it up in a petition. The money wasn't removed when they decided it was illegally obtained, and when someone spoke up about it in an effort of due dilligence, it appears as if they just changed their mind and swiped it all up. It felt like Eve UNI was simply punished for its CEO trying to do the right thing.

That may not have actually been what happened. The problem here is that Kelduum can't make public the content of the various petitions so we really can't see exactly how it went down. But, if the conversation between Kelduum and CCP actually went anything like what was quoted above, this probably woudln't have been an issue.

This isn't about crying over losing 300B ISK, it's about poor communication causing an appearance of incopetence being covered up by misconduct. Without the content of the petitions involved, it's difficult to make a clear assessment.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#570 - 2013-02-12 22:32:26 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:

OK, ban everyone then, everyone's guilty, no proof that they're not! He's botting and HE's botting and so is she!

Ban everyone who types at more than 120 WPM because this is clearly a bot, despite the world record being 216! Nope, the average is around 60ish. Anyone too much faster than than is CLEARLY a botter.


You seem to have profound and unrepairable issues with CCP's word and trustworthyness about their official statements.

Why are you still playing a game when you don't trust their official word?

CCP are not flawless and they DID have false positives in the past, but this one case seems totally blatant. Arguing against this would really demand a proof of feasibility of such a stunt in a legitimate way.
The guys who used the keyboard replication stuff proved they were not botting with pictures and stuff after all.

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Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#571 - 2013-02-12 22:34:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else.


An oversight that they fixed.


But not before it did significant damage. Actually, it brings up another odd thing. He was banned for "suspected botting". One would think that'd mean they are investigating and they are unsure. If they confirmed it, why was he unbanned at all? It would no longer have been "suspected botting". Or extend the ban if nothing else. It really makes them sound uncertain and that they are investigating. So what happens if someone is suspected and they clear them then something like this happens? Do some security members see the old ban on file and base it off that? Do they have attached notes to it with pointers to confirm that it was indeed the case so when their supervisor checks it over, they can confirm that it was the proper action and they weren't just rushing things to get it over with? I don't know... strikes me as a little odd is all, but business can be screwy like that.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#572 - 2013-02-12 22:35:15 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:

Eve Uni: "CCP, we think something is fishy about this 330b isk we got from a donation from someone in our corp who was suspended for market botting. Can you check it outto make sure its all legal?"

CCP: "Ok we will check into this"

Eve Uni: "Ok, thanks"

CCP: "Yes, that ISK is the result of botting activity and will be confiscated."

Eve Uni: "What do you mean? How did you come to this conclusion?"

CCP: "The Isk was confiscated because it was affiliated with botting behavior"


I don't think that's how it went down. It sounds like it was more like:

Eve Uni: "CCP, we think something is fishy about this 330b isk we got from a donation from someone in our corp who was suspended for market botting. Can you check it outto make sure its all legal?"

CCP: "Oh, uh, yeah, thanks for reminding us. We're going to take all that cuz it was illegal."

Eve Uni: "You're just figuring this out now? Why didn't you take it earlier?"

CCP: "Go away, you're not involved, we can't talk to you."

Basically, the way it went down makes it sound like the money would never have been touched if Kelduum hadn't brought it up in a petition. The money wasn't removed when they decided it was illegally obtained, and when someone spoke up about it in an effort of due dilligence, it appears as if they just changed their mind and swiped it all up. It felt like Eve UNI was simply punished for its CEO trying to do the right thing.

That may not have actually been what happened. The problem here is that Kelduum can't make public the content of the various petitions so we really can't see exactly how it went down. But, if the conversation between Kelduum and CCP actually went anything like what was quoted above, this probably woudln't have been an issue.

This isn't about crying over losing 300B ISK, it's about poor communication causing an appearance of incopetence being covered up by misconduct. Without the content of the petitions involved, it's difficult to make a clear assessment.
so in the end it's still eve-U's fault for snitching about the isk.


dayum.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#573 - 2013-02-12 22:36:44 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
A 30m sp character, means play at least 14 month.
CCP though he use market bot from beginning so remove all his "illegal" 300B ISK because of a 14 days ban.


Yes. What's the problem here?

-Liang


CCP have changed ban process one year ago. If they detect bot daily, ban it daily.
And the ban of bot was the first step of their 3-strike policy.

So 14 days ban should be a warn.

It should not be removal of all assets and ISK after you play over one year or more, especially when the removal didn't happen with ban. Actually they should happen at same time.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#574 - 2013-02-12 22:39:43 UTC
Who biomasses a character and gives away 1/3 tri iskies over a 2 week suspension if they were not guilty of what they were accused?

Nothing about the E-Uni story is coming together for me. The more I look at it, the more its clear the levels of deceit being played here.


Kelduum, you need to step down from the CSM now. This is an embarrassment. You are also harming the good name of Eve University.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#575 - 2013-02-12 22:39:47 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
A 30m sp character, means play at least 14 month.
CCP though he use market bot from beginning so remove all his "illegal" 300B ISK because of a 14 days ban.


Yes. What's the problem here?

-Liang


CCP have changed ban process one year ago. If they detect bot daily, ban it daily.
And the ban of bot was the first step of their 3-strike policy.

So 14 days ban should be a warn.

It should not be removal of all assets and ISK after you play over one year or more, especially when the removal didn't happen with ban. Actually they should happen at same time.

ill-gained isk is removed. somebody forgot about removing the isk, and that's pretty much the only thing CCP is at fault here. they are humans after all.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#576 - 2013-02-12 22:39:56 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
I understand why they won't post their methods to some extent. That's fine. I'd kind of like to know what exactly he was doing that falled under botting so I could avoid it if I ever made a station trading alt with some of the CCP approved programs and Javascript methods that they provide to be used in the in game browser, but hey, fine and dandy if they don't. Just gotta be careful. But yes, I question CCP. I question the player accused of botting, I question everything until I see it with my own eyes. I won't always get answers and I understand that, but questioning things is how one learns. About general things, people, everything. Its rather futile at times, but hey. Not to say I can't trust, but sometimes it gets pulled in both directions, so knowing the whole story before making any real judgement is the sensible thing. Right now half the puzzle is missing and will remain missing likely, at this point I'm just saying that the people judging on the speed of the transactions as their only basis? Are being kind of silly. Bots would be a lot faster. Now maybe there was a noticeable pattern that a human couldn't replicate, or maybe it happened the instant some things changed, or any number of things. Don't really know.

But it still doesn't change one thing. They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else. I can see why much of E-UNI is upset over it. Likely the only reason they had it investigated in the first place was to make sure he didn't get it AFTER his ban through some unsavory method or along those lines and because it would have been investigated anyways so they didn't want to spend it on anything until it was cleared.

The answer to every question you raised has been answered; the problem is you don't want to accept the answer because you don't want to think Kelduum has been petty and borderline harmful in the way he went about things.

Tough luck, really, because he was.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#577 - 2013-02-12 22:40:01 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
I don't think that's how it went down. It sounds like it was more like:

Eve Uni: "CCP, we think something is fishy about this 330b isk we got from a donation from someone in our corp who was suspended for market botting. Can you check it outto make sure its all legal?"

CCP: "Oh, uh, yeah, thanks for reminding us. We're going to take all that cuz it was illegal."

Eve Uni: "You're just figuring this out now? Why didn't you take it earlier?"

CCP: "Go away, you're not involved, we can't talk to you."


That's not how it went down. Kelduum petitioned it SIX times & was told SIX times why the isk was confiscated. He didn't like the answer, so he claimed there was no answer & accused CCP of misconduct which is ironic considering he's supporting & defending the actions of a botter.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#578 - 2013-02-12 22:41:54 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:

Eve Uni: "CCP, we think something is fishy about this 330b isk we got from a donation from someone in our corp who was suspended for market botting. Can you check it outto make sure its all legal?"

CCP: "Ok we will check into this"

Eve Uni: "Ok, thanks"

CCP: "Yes, that ISK is the result of botting activity and will be confiscated."

Eve Uni: "What do you mean? How did you come to this conclusion?"

CCP: "The Isk was confiscated because it was affiliated with botting behavior"


I don't think that's how it went down. It sounds like it was more like:

Eve Uni: "CCP, we think something is fishy about this 330b isk we got from a donation from someone in our corp who was suspended for market botting. Can you check it outto make sure its all legal?"

CCP: "Oh, uh, yeah, thanks for reminding us. We're going to take all that cuz it was illegal."

Eve Uni: "You're just figuring this out now? Why didn't you take it earlier?"

CCP: "Go away, you're not involved, we can't talk to you."

Basically, the way it went down makes it sound like the money would never have been touched if Kelduum hadn't brought it up in a petition. The money wasn't removed when they decided it was illegally obtained, and when someone spoke up about it in an effort of due dilligence, it appears as if they just changed their mind and swiped it all up. It felt like Eve UNI was simply punished for its CEO trying to do the right thing.

That may not have actually been what happened. The problem here is that Kelduum can't make public the content of the various petitions so we really can't see exactly how it went down. But, if the conversation between Kelduum and CCP actually went anything like what was quoted above, this probably woudln't have been an issue.

This isn't about crying over losing 300B ISK, it's about poor communication causing an appearance of incopetence being covered up by misconduct. Without the content of the petitions involved, it's difficult to make a clear assessment.

Even if things went exactly as you outlined, when the line comes up from CCP:

Quote:
CCP: "Go away, you're not involved, we can't talk to you."


That should have been the end of the matter.

CCP should never discuss the details of something like this even with the people that innocently ended up with the ISK in their wallet beyond telling them that the ISK was illegally obtained and they cannot keep it.

There really isn't anything else to discuss.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#579 - 2013-02-12 22:42:10 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else.


An oversight that they fixed.


But not before it did significant damage. Actually, it brings up another odd thing. He was banned for "suspected botting". One would think that'd mean they are investigating and they are unsure. If they confirmed it, why was he unbanned at all? It would no longer have been "suspected botting". Or extend the ban if nothing else. It really makes them sound uncertain and that they are investigating. So what happens if someone is suspected and they clear them then something like this happens? Do some security members see the old ban on file and base it off that? Do they have attached notes to it with pointers to confirm that it was indeed the case so when their supervisor checks it over, they can confirm that it was the proper action and they weren't just rushing things to get it over with? I don't know... strikes me as a little odd is all, but business can be screwy like that.


Your CEO came up with the term "suspected botting" all on his own. CCP Sreegs was pretty clear that 'John' was flat out botting.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#580 - 2013-02-12 22:42:58 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
A 30m sp character, means play at least 14 month.
CCP though he use market bot from beginning so remove all his "illegal" 300B ISK because of a 14 days ban.


Yes. What's the problem here?

-Liang


CCP have changed ban process one year ago. If they detect bot daily, ban it daily.
And the ban of bot was the first step of their 3-strike policy.

So 14 days ban should be a warn.

It should not be removal of all assets and ISK after you play over one year or more, especially when the removal didn't happen with ban. Actually they should happen at same time.


So why the biomass and giving away off all iskies and assets after strike one?

None of this story is believable at this point.

Eve Uni has got themselves caught up in a full scale scandal.

Kelduum Step down from the CSM and Eve Uni now.



How deep does this rabbit hole go at Eve University? CCP should do some more digging around that Corp and its assets in the name of justice.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]