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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#541 - 2013-02-12 21:58:34 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Alicia Fermi wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

This is not a court of law. It is a game where you rent assets from CCP.


OK, ban everyone then, everyone's guilty, no proof that they're not! He's botting and HE's botting and so is she!

Ban everyone who types at more than 120 WPM because this is clearly a bot, despite the world record being 216! Nope, the average is around 60ish. Anyone too much faster than than is CLEARLY a botter.

Slippery slope much? And no proof you know of equals no proof exists?
You seem to lose coherence.

Judge Sreegs isn't corrupt as you try to make us belief.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#542 - 2013-02-12 21:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Arduemont wrote:
Is this still going on? What the hell are you people arguing about?

He was botting, and then ISK was removed. What's the big?


CCP didn't give special preferential treatment to the CSM member who runs the alliance which was holding the ISK, instead they treated him the same as they would one of those lesser alliances.

Clearly this is unacceptable and CCP should favour important space alliances like Eve Uni and let them keep any botted ISK which just happens to find its way into their hands.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#543 - 2013-02-12 22:01:48 UTC
ok I ran out of popcorn. anybody got more?

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#544 - 2013-02-12 22:01:53 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
CCP keep lying "One Universe // One War".


Would you please expound upon this because this is like the 5th time you've said the same cryptic ****.

-Liang


You never hear Serenity ?
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#545 - 2013-02-12 22:02:33 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Alicia Fermi wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

This is not a court of law. It is a game where you rent assets from CCP.


OK, ban everyone then, everyone's guilty, no proof that they're not! He's botting and HE's botting and so is she!

Ban everyone who types at more than 120 WPM because this is clearly a bot, despite the world record being 216! Nope, the average is around 60ish. Anyone too much faster than than is CLEARLY a botter.

Slippery slope much? And no proof you know of equals no proof exists?
You seem to lose coherence.

Judge Sreegs isn't corrupt as you try to make us belief.


If you read the rest of my posts all of you who think I'm purely supportive of the guy should feel like idiots. Allow me to quote a previous post.

Aren Madigan wrote:

Just because you can't do it and people you know can't do it != someone else can't do it. Some people are flat out incredible around a keyboard. If you watched a really high end pro gamer, you can sometimes see them move their hands and react at speeds that seem impossible to many people. If the speed of the transactions was the question and nothing else, unless it was like an order every half second, that kind of speed alone isn't evidence to anything. Ignorance to other people's abilities is NOT evidence to anything nor should EVER be used as such. Unless they had physical evidence he was botting by actually detecting the programs he used or something along those lines? Then frankly its an overstep. If they had such evidence, then yeah, the guy is on the wrong and it should be dropped.

Frankly though them not removing the ISK in the first place was ridiculous either way.


Notice how I said if they have more evidence than that, they're clearly in the right. Which is fine and dandy. But anyone arguing purely that the speed is evidence enough? Is full of it. But nooo, because I'm arguing against you're incredibly INSANELY bad logic, suddenly I'm blindly supporting him.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#546 - 2013-02-12 22:02:46 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
supporting wardec evasion and supporting botting go hand in hand, this development isn't surprising
And then...

Aren Madigan wrote:
Alicia Fermi wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

This is not a court of law. It is a game where you rent assets from CCP.


OK, ban everyone then, everyone's guilty, no proof that they're not! He's botting and HE's botting and so is she!

Perfect timing.
iskflakes
#547 - 2013-02-12 22:04:17 UTC
CCP Sreegs, your opinion on cache scraping raises some concerns.

Without cache scraping there's no way to get market data out of the game because no API has been provided. This means sites like EVE Central are forced to rely on cache scraping because there is no alternative. Everybody will agree that EVE Central is an important part of the EVE community. Should EVE Central shutdown?

Many traders (not me) use tools such as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c96OhoYvgW0 to do cache-scraping semi-automated order updating in the belief that it's EULA-legal. I think some clarification on CCP's cache scraping policy would be good, considering we have contradictory DEV/GM comments on the forums here. Personally I don't think tools such as the one in the linked video should be legal, but that a (maybe 6 hour delayed) API should be provided to allow sites like EVE-central to operate.

-
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#548 - 2013-02-12 22:04:25 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
CCP keep lying "One Universe // One War".


Would you please expound upon this because this is like the 5th time you've said the same cryptic ****.

-Liang


You never hear Serenity ?


The dev server? What about it? No, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#549 - 2013-02-12 22:05:23 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Is this still going on? What the hell are you people arguing about?

He was botting, and then ISK was removed. What's the big?


CCP didn't give special preferential treatment to the CSM member who runs the alliance which was holding the ISK, instead they treated him the same as they would one of those lesser alliances.

Clearly this is unacceptable and CCP should favor important space alliances like Eve Uni and let them keep any botted ISK which just happens to find its way into their hands.


It's contemptible behavior firstly but as a CSM member he should be removed immediately.

CSM Kelduum Revaan is the botter's candidate.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Alicia Fermi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#550 - 2013-02-12 22:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alicia Fermi
Aren Madigan wrote:
Alicia Fermi wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

This is not a court of law. It is a game where you rent assets from CCP.

OK, ban everyone then, everyone's guilty, no proof that they're not! He's botting and HE's botting and so is she!

Ban everyone who types at more than 120 WPM because this is clearly a bot, despite the world record being 216! Nope, the average is around 60ish. Anyone too much faster than than is CLEARLY a botter.

Sreegs says the fact that the player in question was botting cannot be disputed. You obviously do not believe Sreegs. If Sreegs produces evidence, what stops you from doubting it? You clearly do not think Sreegs is of good character because his word at this point in time is insufficient.

Of course, CCP are never going to release their detection methods: that is only going to make it easier for botters to evade detection.

We are left with trusting CCP and, if we do not, voting with our wallets. Frankly Kelduum is destroying what credibility he had left which, for me, is very sad to see. At one point in time I thought he was above using EVE University as his own private army of righteous indignation.
Whitehound
#551 - 2013-02-12 22:07:50 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
ok I ran out of popcorn. anybody got more?

I am having pancakes and could use some coffee.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#552 - 2013-02-12 22:09:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Finde learth
A 30m sp character, means play at least 14 month.
CCP though he use market bot from beginning so remove all his "illegal" 300B ISK after 21 days because of a 14 days ban.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#553 - 2013-02-12 22:11:01 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
A 30m sp character, means play at least 14 month.
CCP though he use market bot from beginning so remove all his "illegal" 300B ISK because of a 14 days ban.


Yes. What's the problem here?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#554 - 2013-02-12 22:11:55 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
A 30m sp character, means play at least 14 month.
CCP though he use market bot from beginning so remove all his "illegal" 300B ISK because of a 14 days ban.


He is a dirty botter and all his monies are belong to CCP.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#555 - 2013-02-12 22:13:02 UTC
Zelda Wei wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
In my opinion cache scraping is illegal. You won't be banned for it today.


Please explain why?

This has long been considered legit, because,the client is not modified, the market cache is only read.


If reading the cache files are allowed as long as you don't modify then, someone might get creative and start reading the memory of the game client process, and access a lot more then just market data.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#556 - 2013-02-12 22:13:03 UTC
Karbowiak wrote:


Problem is tho, they gave us the tools that allows us to automate a huge chunk of stuff.

It's entirely possible for me to create a system for my own use that.

1. Opens up all the market details for certain typeIDs i deal in
2. Checks the client cache with an external script, to fill in all market orders
3. Figure out where my order is priced (using the API) and what it needs to be to undercut the rest
4. Show me the price an item should be, and also put the new price into the paste buffer
5. I just open the order, and modify the isk value and hit ok
6. Hit next in the browser window

And then restart from #4

If he actually did this, it's nowhere near botting - it would however still allow him to modify market orders at an alarmingly fast rate, which could be mistaken for botting. Lol



Depending on how rock solid sure you are that what this is, is NOT botting, i think a video detailing the processes, showing the fact the client is unmodified, and showing a physical person using a keyboard to modify multiple orders in less than 2 seconds would go quite far indeed to un-greying this area of the anti-botting part of the EULA.

However as good thatd be to drawing a line in the sand and allowing the community something clear and concise, i doubt itd happen as eve players (especially in this area) compete viciously and guard their secrets quite vigorously to keep their edge against their peers.

:(
Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#557 - 2013-02-12 22:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Entity
iskflakes wrote:
CCP Sreegs, your opinion on cache scraping raises some concerns.

Without cache scraping there's no way to get market data out of the game because no API has been provided. This means sites like EVE Central are forced to rely on cache scraping because there is no alternative. Everybody will agree that EVE Central is an important part of the EVE community. Should EVE Central shutdown?

Many traders (not me) use tools such as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c96OhoYvgW0 to do cache-scraping semi-automated order updating in the belief that it's EULA-legal. I think some clarification on CCP's cache scraping policy would be good, considering we have contradictory DEV/GM comments on the forums here. Personally I don't think tools such as the one in the linked video should be legal, but that a (maybe 6 hour delayed) API should be provided to allow sites like EVE-central to operate.


Don't worry. His opinion is both moot (since explicit permission was already given), and unenforceable, because reading files on your filesystem is not something that can typically be detected/identified as being a cache decode (heck, it could be me simply copying a client install too, or my AV doing a check), unless CCP installs rootkits on our machines and checks what programs are reading the EVE/cache folders, which I'm sure would go over well with the community ;-)

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#558 - 2013-02-12 22:16:59 UTC
Entity wrote:

Don't worry. His opinion is both moot (since explicit permission was already given), and unenforceable, because reading files on your filesystem is not something that can typically be detected/identified as being a cache decode (heck, it could be me simply copying a client install too, or my AV doing a check), unless CCP installs rootkits on our machines and checks what programs are reading the EVE/cache folders, which I'm sure would go over well with the community ;-)


Generally speaking it's much easier to detect things that people do in game than things that people do out of game. That said, the guy was obviously not banned for using the cache. He was banned for botting.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#559 - 2013-02-12 22:20:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Entity wrote:

Don't worry. His opinion is both moot (since explicit permission was already given), and unenforceable, because reading files on your filesystem is not something that can typically be detected/identified as being a cache decode (heck, it could be me simply copying a client install too, or my AV doing a check), unless CCP installs rootkits on our machines and checks what programs are reading the EVE/cache folders, which I'm sure would go over well with the community ;-)


Generally speaking it's much easier to detect things that people do in game than things that people do out of game. That said, the guy was obviously not banned for using the cache. He was banned for botting.

-Liang


Yep. And I couldn't care less about what the banned guy did or did not do really. I'm just defending our granted privilege to read the cache :P

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#560 - 2013-02-12 22:20:51 UTC
Entity wrote:
Don't worry. His opinion is both moot (since explicit permission was already given), and unenforceable, because reading files on your filesystem is not something that can typically be detected/identified as being a cache decode (heck, it could be me simply copying a client install too, or my AV doing a check), unless CCP installs rootkits on our machines and checks what programs are reading the EVE/cache folders, which I'm sure would go over well with the community ;-)


While there is no way to prevent people from reading the files, they could use encryption to make the content useless.