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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#381 - 2013-02-12 18:18:51 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Sometimes, things are just tough, and "receiving stolen goods" ius a real life crime in my places. Sorry, it might not be your fault, you might not know the stuff was stolen, them's the breaks.

In this case, all CCP had to do was say "this isk is from botting, sorry". Since they did that, case closed.



Since you want to bring "IRL" into it. Pretty sure this is real life however. If a family member wills you $1 million USD on death, and the government discovers that $300k was earned illegally. They don't take $1 million, they take the illegally earned portion. If you read the OP, you will see this is what Kelduum was asking about. He asked if all had to be taken.


lol, you're wrong about that, and should google the words "Asset Forfeiture". It's not just "proceeds" that are taken it's also "funds, capital or property used to facilitate the crime" IRL the government would make the case that ALL of it was part of a criminal enterprise and impound the entire 1 mil USD. Asset Forfeiture law is a class every peace officer in my state has to take every 2 years.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#382 - 2013-02-12 18:18:59 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
We need a bit more drama in here.

So when will Kelduum resign from CSM? I mean, a CSM chairman that has been voted for by thousands of players has been kicked for less, so why not?



There should be calls for his removal. He is not fit to hold office after this nonsense.

He thinks his Corp is above others. He is chasing around dirty isk causing a scene and making serious allegations against CCP because his corp couldn't keep a donation from a character that was just suspended for BOTTING!?!?!


He should publicly apologize or he should go.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#383 - 2013-02-12 18:19:23 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
thats how market botting (or legit market trading) works it's taking a small seed and using what is essentially compound interest to accumulate isk

the only legit money there would be that seed and that's so small in 317b that its insignificantly minute and not worth accounting for

And most likely had already been spent on ships that got exploded, or PLEX that got redeemed. My guess is more than 317 bil needed to be confiscated, but only the donation to E-Uni was available.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#384 - 2013-02-12 18:19:42 UTC
Wescro wrote:
I regret starting this thread. Please stop posting here. The matter seems resolved to me. Cheers CCP Sreegs.


We are Pandora, and we ain't getting back in no damn box.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#385 - 2013-02-12 18:19:50 UTC
Black Death Jasmine wrote:

5 - When Goons are siding with CCP you know you don't have a case. Roll

us goonies like to say up is up and white is white to watch pubbies start screaming about how since goons always lie up is down and white is black

its a really hilarious game

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#386 - 2013-02-12 18:20:41 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Beckie DeLey wrote:
We need a bit more drama in here.

So when will Kelduum resign from CSM? I mean, a CSM chairman that has been voted for by thousands of players has been kicked for less, so why not?



There should be calls for his removal. He is not fit to hold office after this nonsense.

He thinks his Corp is above others. He is chasing around dirty isk causing a scene and making serious allegations against CCP because his corp couldn't keep a donation from a character that was just suspended for BOTTING!?!?!


He should publicly apologize or he should go.


This bears repeating.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Josef Djugashvilis
#387 - 2013-02-12 18:21:06 UTC
I am sure most Eve players are, as I am, against botting.

Unless of course, the botter gives me the illegal isk he made, in which case it is obvious that the CCP anti-botting crew have got it all wrong, (the alleged botter once helped an old lady across a road, so he must be a decent chap) therefore I should be allowed to keep the illegal isk.

Any rational explanation provided by CCP as to why the illegal isk was removed from the game ie - me, shall be ignored.

This is not a signature.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#388 - 2013-02-12 18:21:37 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Beckie DeLey wrote:
We need a bit more drama in here.

So when will Kelduum resign from CSM? I mean, a CSM chairman that has been voted for by thousands of players has been kicked for less, so why not?



There should be calls for his removal. He is not fit to hold office after this nonsense.

He thinks his Corp is above others. He is chasing around dirty isk causing a scene and making serious allegations against CCP because his corp couldn't keep a donation from a character that was just suspended for BOTTING!?!?!


He should publicly apologize or he should go.


This bears repeating.

-Liang

There, i just repeated it.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#389 - 2013-02-12 18:22:01 UTC
Lol... All this drama... Just EUni being bad as usual...

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#390 - 2013-02-12 18:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
From what I've seen, CCP has done a great job here and even took the time to answer and comment, things that they usually refuse to do. So we would better demonstrate that, as a community, we are able to receive feedback without instantly flamming eachothers or trying to create confusion on false facts.

The dude has made hundreds of billions by manipulating the market (which is in itself legal and called "trade" - although, like in real life, I believe that this profession is a nuisance but that's another debate-), and he did it using illegal tools that are making other trader's life very hard. No need to complain about that. The isk he made has been confiscated, which is again perfectly legit.

My questions here are :

1- Did this guy started botting recently ?

2- If not, why did this wait so long before being detected or actions being taken ?

3- Why, in the first place, did he kept his isks after being banned ?

PS : Fun fact, micro-trading (or "real life botting") is commonly used in reality. It made me laugh that such behaviour is only denigrated in a virtual world.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#391 - 2013-02-12 18:28:19 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Beckie DeLey wrote:
We need a bit more drama in here.

So when will Kelduum resign from CSM? I mean, a CSM chairman that has been voted for by thousands of players has been kicked for less, so why not?



There should be calls for his removal. He is not fit to hold office after this nonsense.

He thinks his Corp is above others. He is chasing around dirty isk causing a scene and making serious allegations against CCP because his corp couldn't keep a donation from a character that was just suspended for BOTTING!?!?!


He should publicly apologize or he should go.


This bears repeating.

-Liang

There, i just repeated it.

Its happened again.
Shun Makoto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#392 - 2013-02-12 18:29:22 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Wescro wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:

1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.
2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.
3) The only authority higher than the Director of Security for these complaints is the Executive Producer and then the CEO. This is a higher level of escalation than the Customer Service arm and IA automatically looks at our work. I'm not sure why we feel we should be able to escalate higher than the highest reasonable authority but the fact is that this team operates with significant oversight. We believe the issue here to be more that this particular CSM feels he isn't in the loop, something which is quite frankly the only proper way to do business in a unit that handles secrets.

Frankly we're a bit disturbed by the allegations made here given that the person in question waited until they exhausted every resource possible prior to posting this then lamented the lack of an escalation path. Not getting the answer you like isn't a lack of an escalation path and never will be.



Thank you for responding substantively instead of closing the thread. I'm sure everyone here wants to see the right thing done. In this situation it's your word against the players. Is there anyway the playerbase can be given assurance that the process is not arbitrary besides simply asking us to have faith in CCP?


I believe sunshine is the best disinfectant when it can be used. Aside from showing you logs which include private communications and trade secrets I'm not sure how this could be done. This is why we're in this position in the first place. It's easy to insinuate misconduct when you know we're in a position where we can't put our stuff on the table. It's also petty.


I think we should be told exactly how he was botting, so we know not to do the same and get punished for it. Because if there's some truth to the story "John" didn't know he was botting, and if that's true it would be nice for others to know about this to avoid it.

Kaalakiota-Kaatso Taokeruu Kaltiovon ArK. (Kalaakiota Business Research Corporation)

Head of Security

...................................

Kaalakiota Corporation

Patriot Faction
Callie Cross
Tax Code
#393 - 2013-02-12 18:30:08 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Callie Cross wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Sometimes, things are just tough, and "receiving stolen goods" ius a real life crime in my places. Sorry, it might not be your fault, you might not know the stuff was stolen, them's the breaks.

In this case, all CCP had to do was say "this isk is from botting, sorry". Since they did that, case closed.



Since you want to bring "IRL" into it. Pretty sure this is real life however. If a family member wills you $1 million USD on death, and the government discovers that $300k was earned illegally. They don't take $1 million, they take the illegally earned portion. If you read the OP, you will see this is what Kelduum was asking about. He asked if all had to be taken.


lol, you're wrong about that, and should google the words "Asset Forfeiture". It's not just "proceeds" that are taken it's also "funds, capital or property used to facilitate the crime" IRL the government would make the case that ALL of it was part of a criminal enterprise and impound the entire 1 mil USD. Asset Forfeiture law is a class every peace officer in my state has to take every 2 years.



Damn. I underestimated their sneakiness.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#394 - 2013-02-12 18:31:15 UTC
Altrue wrote:
questions

1- CCP will not comment

2- CCP will not comment

3- Accidents
digi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#395 - 2013-02-12 18:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: digi
CCP Sreegs wrote:


I've worked on internal investigations for over a decade. I have never reported to anyone more senior than a CIO. Legal and HR typically owned the investigations. I must not understand corporate structure.


I, too, have performed this function for over a decade and my experience in corp structures is exactly the same. CIO typically owns the reporting relationship and legal/HR/compliance and in my past life, police department will own the investigations.

We only made 4 billion a year but they probably know nothing of corporate structure compared to some random Eve player.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#396 - 2013-02-12 18:35:32 UTC
Shun Makoto wrote:

I think we should be told exactly how he was botting, so we know not to do the same and get punished for it. Because if there's some truth to the story "John" didn't know he was botting, and if that's true it would be nice for others to know about this to avoid it.


You specifically do not need this information.

-Liang

Ed: Protip, don't modify the client and don't use external programs to "speed things up".

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#397 - 2013-02-12 18:35:44 UTC
Shun Makoto wrote:


I think we should be told exactly how he was botting, so we know not to do the same and get punished for it. Because if there's some truth to the story "John" didn't know he was botting, and if that's true it would be nice for others to know about this to avoid it.


Yes lets tell the botting community how CCP are catching them. Nice try shady character.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#398 - 2013-02-12 18:38:03 UTC
Shun Makoto wrote:

I think we should be told exactly how he was botting, so we know not to do the same and get punished for it. Because if there's some truth to the story "John" didn't know he was botting, and if that's true it would be nice for others to know about this to avoid it.

he was botting by using macros to enable him to update market orders at a pace not achievable by a human being (sustained 2s per change over 10-20 minutes)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Fraternity.
#399 - 2013-02-12 18:41:03 UTC
To be honest this sounds like a combination of :

1. Kelduum getting dollar signs in his eyes at the possibility of becoming space rich
2. Using his position as a CSM member as a pedestal to try get his own way. Which quite frankly I think is an abuse of the trust of people who voted for him.
Yvsyvs
Something Got Reacted
PanSwarm Federation Please Ignore
#400 - 2013-02-12 18:42:31 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA.


So pretty much any South Korean Statcraft player is doomed to face false charges and banning, then. Lovely.



Exactly this! I have no clue if this guy was really boting, but who decides what is humanly possible?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVEvwNbeK6I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-ofosFtuqs,