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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Wescro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-02-12 09:58:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Wescro
If you haven't already read the EVE Uni forum post or the Reddit post linking to it, here it is. Protect your spacebucks! They banning everyone out here without recourse.


On a more serious note, if what the EVE Uni post is alledging is true, I hope CCP realizes this is unacceptable. Banning bots is the lords work, but there has to be a fair dispute resolution process. The above story, IF TRUE, is not only a display of incompetence, its sheer malice towards a respected member of the community. It's a rare blight on CCPs otherwise decent track record of being responsive to the community. (sarcasm?)

For what it's worth I hope this forum post and discussion will present a united response to Team Securitys allegedly arbitrary banning of "John" and result in positive change for the EVE playerbase.

EDIT: I am not affiliated with EVE-Uni. Also various edits to add "if true" and "allegedly."

http://crossingzebras.com/2013/02/17/csm8ripardteg/
Lovely Dumplings
My Little Pony Appreciation Corporation
#2 - 2013-02-12 10:09:51 UTC
I'd really hate to see this being used in a meta-game way. I won't mention the specifics on how, of course, but the bright people of EVE will see where I'm going.

www.minerbumping.com
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-02-12 10:09:53 UTC
Well, we know one side of the medal now. I am sure CCP doesn't act like that out of nothing.

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-02-12 10:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jada Maroo
I'll be interested to see if CCP tries to lock and bury this thread. It will be a good measure of whether they are still the "new" CCP or slouching back toward the old CCP.

If people are being wrongly accused and the security team doesn't have any oversight, and multiple people report being told to just go away, that's a startling lack of professionalism.

Either way, CCP should explain their side.
Le Badass
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-02-12 10:15:03 UTC
Potentially disturbing story.
The reply that the security guy didn't care about the player base response was a bit disappointing to read.
Too bad this thread will probably "disappear". More facts, especially from CCP's side, would be greatly appreciated.
On the other hand, this is Eve and the entire thread could be trolling or a scam of some sort - This also wouldn't surprise me.
HVAC Repairman
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-02-12 10:16:26 UTC
I, too, take every player for their word and white knight for them

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Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-02-12 10:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
Colonel Xaven wrote:
Well, we know one side of the medal now. I am sure CCP doesn't act like that out of nothing.



You base this assumption on what?

I have always (since I started eve in 2006-2007) considered their behaviour in security matters to be completely arbitrary. Part of the reason why they bring this bad rap on themselves.

It is already a bad sign that you cannot discuss moderation on these forums, allowing them to ignore any claims on their suspicious activity.

This is less about whether this guy was guilty or not. This is about the behaviour of Eve security teams. There should be more transparency.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-02-12 10:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
The discussion on the EUNI forums is pretty cringeworthy but they have a valid point imo:

Ever since the reorganization in late 2011 Internal Affairs has been part of the security team (source).

It's completely unclear if there is any sort of independent oversight of the security team - it seems that if allegations of misconduct were to be brought forth against the security team it would have to investigate itself.

I get that the skillsets required by IA and security analysts are related and that IA at CCP is probably not a full-time job. But imo the first consideration with rgds to the work of IA should be to ensure its independence and integrity, not cost-saving.
IA should stand completely outside a company's org chart and ideally report directly to the board of directors (or to the CEO if that is unfeasible - but even that restricts their freedom of investigation).
Allowing a scenario in which IA could be required to audit their own (not-IA-related) work is mind-boggling.


(maybe the core issue is that CCP IA is weak because of how they came into being - as a team to investigate developer misconduct within the game. if the initiative had come from the accounting side of the company they'd probably be in a much stronger position instead of being treated like glorified GMs)

.
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-02-12 10:22:54 UTC
A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#10 - 2013-02-12 10:24:23 UTC
Transparent security is like an oxymoron.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Docter Daniel Jackson
Fleetworks Training
#11 - 2013-02-12 10:25:29 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay.


Because it says using macros are wrong right? I never get why people like you get all upset because some one knows how to use macros... Its not like hes changing the code to the game or some thing or hacking some thing Roll
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-02-12 10:27:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckie DeLey
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:
Beckie DeLey wrote:
A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay.


Because it says using macros are wrong right? I never get why people like you get all upset because some one knows how to use macros... Its not like hes changing the code to the game or some thing or hacking some thing Roll


That's just semantics, really. You are using 3rd party programs to do what would be impossible otherwise. If this guy was using some script to update 30 market orders per minute, he deserved what he got. I don't care about some boneheaded distinction between script, macros, bots or whatever, it's the deed that counts. The rest is just rules lawyering.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Docter Daniel Jackson
Fleetworks Training
#13 - 2013-02-12 10:31:27 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:
Beckie DeLey wrote:
A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay.


Because it says using macros are wrong right? I never get why people like you get all upset because some one knows how to use macros... Its not like hes changing the code to the game or some thing or hacking some thing Roll


That's just semantics, really. You are using 3rd party programs to do what would be impossible otherwise. If this guy was using some script to update 30 market orders per minute, he deserved what he got. I don't care about some boneheaded distinction between script, macros, bots or whatever, it's the deed that counts. The rest is just rules lawyering.


But dose it say in the rules of the game you can't do it though?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-02-12 10:33:44 UTC
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:
But dose it say in the rules of the game you can't do it though?


Yes it does, actually.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Docter Daniel Jackson
Fleetworks Training
#15 - 2013-02-12 10:35:18 UTC
Andski wrote:
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:
But dose it say in the rules of the game you can't do it though?


Yes it does, actually.


I'll have to look then, unless some one can point me to a link.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-02-12 10:36:03 UTC
Quote:
the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.


That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA.

Quote:
3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Docter Daniel Jackson
Fleetworks Training
#17 - 2013-02-12 10:37:45 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Quote:
the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.


That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA.

Quote:
3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.


Ok ty, I stand corrected then.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-02-12 10:39:31 UTC
Andski wrote:
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:
But dose it say in the rules of the game you can't do it though?


Yes it does, actually.

indeed, there is only one kind of type macro allowed in this game and that is the macros provided by gaming keyboards like the G15 and Sidewinder X series.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-02-12 10:40:08 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay.


Because ISboxer is allowed.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Lovely Dumplings
My Little Pony Appreciation Corporation
#20 - 2013-02-12 10:42:58 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Quote:
the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.


That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA.

Quote:
3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.


Read in that light, I actually agree. A bot *IS* a bot, makes no diffo if you're sitting in front of the KB while it runs, or off mowing the lawn.

www.minerbumping.com
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