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[MAJTH] Do you know what I keep hearing?
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Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#81 - 2011-10-26 23:22:45 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:


Me ? I will not free your people indeed, how could I even be able to do that ?

And no, I do not think that you will free them with a war. This is a simple matter of fact, or you might be a little... delusioned.


Come, now -- let's not get into an argument over semantics. You know very well what I'm saying.

War is not a necessity. It is a consequince, and quite frankly, it's one that the Empire should have foreseen a long time ago. Either the Empire emancipates its remaining slaves, or we'll fight our way over there and emancipate them ourselves.

Which option would you prefer?

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#82 - 2011-10-27 20:07:32 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Just explain him why you are commander and he is the ignorant?
I do not belief in arguments from authority, I'm afraid.


This is not what I meant...

Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:


Me ? I will not free your people indeed, how could I even be able to do that ?

And no, I do not think that you will free them with a war. This is a simple matter of fact, or you might be a little... delusioned.


Come, now -- let's not get into an argument over semantics. You know very well what I'm saying.

War is not a necessity. It is a consequince, and quite frankly, it's one that the Empire should have foreseen a long time ago. Either the Empire emancipates its remaining slaves, or we'll fight our way over there and emancipate them ourselves.

Which option would you prefer?


Huh, no, actually, I do not know what you are saying. I am no Amarrian, and moreover, own no slaves.

I would prefer the second option, but I do not see what this has to do with the fact that war is supposedly inevitable, at the contrary. You are deliberately ignoring my comments above.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#83 - 2011-10-27 20:38:21 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Just explain him why you are commander and he is the ignorant?
I do not belief in arguments from authority, I'm afraid.


This is not what I meant...

Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:


Me ? I will not free your people indeed, how could I even be able to do that ?

And no, I do not think that you will free them with a war. This is a simple matter of fact, or you might be a little... delusioned.


Come, now -- let's not get into an argument over semantics. You know very well what I'm saying.

War is not a necessity. It is a consequince, and quite frankly, it's one that the Empire should have foreseen a long time ago. Either the Empire emancipates its remaining slaves, or we'll fight our way over there and emancipate them ourselves.

Which option would you prefer?


Huh, no, actually, I do not know what you are saying. I am no Amarrian, and moreover, own no slaves.

I would prefer the second option, but I do not see what this has to do with the fact that war is supposedly inevitable, at the contrary. You are deliberately ignoring my comments above.


I apologise, I spoke much too quickly (seems to be a bad habit of mine).

My argument is that the Empire has spurned each and every 'peaceful' option. We've shown our frustration in many ways: we've rioted, we've petitioned for political redress, we've attempted diplomatic dialogue, but they seem to want none of it.

We could, I suppose, go back to the negotiating table, again, and make the same requests, again. What's the point, though? It hasn't worked before, and there's no evidence it'd be any more likely to work this time.

We simply don't know what else to do. That's the long and the short of it. We don't want war (nobody does), but we're frustrated, angry, and tired, and we've finally run out of alternatives.

War is not inevitable. When your opponent steadily eliminates your other options, however, it eventually becomes unavoidable.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#84 - 2011-10-27 20:48:01 UTC
My point is just that each side does think that the other side has not offered enough. Which is quite convenient now the war has started, because politics were a little bit different before.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#85 - 2011-10-27 21:00:16 UTC
Well,

the Empire is open for and appreciates negotiations. What it also appreciates in progress - of negotiations and anywhere else (even in scientific progress, I've heard) - is deliberately slowing it down. That's not because we don't want the matter get solved, but because we learned over millennia that slow progress means stable progress. And we cherish stability.

So should you. We don't want to free all Matari slaves over night, throw the Matari and the Amarr nations into distress and then get those people into place that'd reason that we need this cheap labour, that the Matari evidently can't care for those freed slaves and then having an even worse situation spiraling down into an all out war (not just these little skirmishes between militia's of capsuleers).

So, either way, whether it's by war or peacefully, we Amarr will go to great length to delay changes (on our side) of any kind, that's where we excel. As pointed out, for a reason.

So, either way the best chance for the Republic is to get some real patience. Toughen up. The people making the decisions in the Empire have a breath that easily lasts a millennium. They'll use it.

Patience is worth more than anything if you deal with(in) the Empire.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2011-10-27 21:16:22 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Well,

the Empire is open for and appreciates negotiations. What it also appreciates in progress - of negotiations and anywhere else (even in scientific progress, I've heard) - is deliberately slowing it down. That's not because we don't want the matter get solved, but because we learned over millennia that slow progress means stable progress. And we cherish stability.

So should you. We don't want to free all Matari slaves over night, throw the Matari and the Amarr nations into distress and then get those people into place that'd reason that we need this cheap labour, that the Matari evidently can't care for those freed slaves and then having an even worse situation spiraling down into an all out war (not just these little skirmishes between militia's of capsuleers).

So, either way, whether it's by war or peacefully, we Amarr will go to great length to delay changes (on our side) of any kind, that's where we excel. As pointed out, for a reason.

So, either way the best chance for the Republic is to get some real patience. Toughen up. The people making the decisions in the Empire have a breath that easily lasts a millennium. They'll use it.

Patience is worth more than anything if you deal with(in) the Empire.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra


Thank you, most noble and official Spokesperson for the Amarr Empire. I wasn't aware you'd just been appointed. Big smile

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#87 - 2011-10-27 21:36:12 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Well,

the Empire is open for and appreciates negotiations. What it also appreciates in progress - of negotiations and anywhere else (even in scientific progress, I've heard) - is deliberately slowing it down. That's not because we don't want the matter get solved, but because we learned over millennia that slow progress means stable progress. And we cherish stability.

So should you. We don't want to free all Matari slaves over night, throw the Matari and the Amarr nations into distress and then get those people into place that'd reason that we need this cheap labour, that the Matari evidently can't care for those freed slaves and then having an even worse situation spiraling down into an all out war (not just these little skirmishes between militia's of capsuleers).

So, either way, whether it's by war or peacefully, we Amarr will go to great length to delay changes (on our side) of any kind, that's where we excel. As pointed out, for a reason.

So, either way the best chance for the Republic is to get some real patience. Toughen up. The people making the decisions in the Empire have a breath that easily lasts a millennium. They'll use it.

Patience is worth more than anything if you deal with(in) the Empire.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra


How much patience do we need? I mean, we're not asking for you to do it all right now -- speedy reform is one thing, but shooting yourselves in the foot for the sake of convenience is entirely another -- but we are asking for commitment.

We're running out of patience, Ms. Mithra -- some of us would say it already has run out. 'Slow and steady' may have worked when there was still the illusion that the Empire had any intention of listening to us; now, it just seems like a stall-tactic.

So, in the interests of speeding things along, here's my proposal:

Present us with a clear and unambiguous timetable that shows that the Empire has at least the intent to offer a non-violent alternative to our current situation, and while I can't speak for my people as a whole, I will feel slightly more confident that we can trust you.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#88 - 2011-10-27 23:20:03 UTC
Ah, I'll try something very un-Amarrian here and make it quick:

You don't get my point it seems: There will be no speeding things along with Amarr. Amarr prefers a war that doesn't effect its policies a bit to any negotiation that's supposed to lead to any quick decisions.

That you feel you can't trust us in negotiations is among other things (which you already cited from your perspective) a result of the Matari impatience (in regard to the timescales Amarrin politics thinks in). And that you wanted hard commitment after the negotiations barely started out of Amarrian perspective just underlines that.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#89 - 2011-10-28 01:05:34 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Ah, I'll try something very un-Amarrian here and make it quick:

You don't get my point it seems: There will be no speeding things along with Amarr. Amarr prefers a war that doesn't effect its policies a bit to any negotiation that's supposed to lead to any quick decisions.

That you feel you can't trust us in negotiations is among other things (which you already cited from your perspective) a result of the Matari impatience (in regard to the timescales Amarrin politics thinks in). And that you wanted hard commitment after the negotiations barely started out of Amarrian perspective just underlines that.


And now, we get to the core of my objections: the Empire is content to sit back and hope that we all forget about them. No sincerity, no attempt at honest dialogue that might actually end the war and save millions of lives on both sides -- once again, they stall and stonewall until they can escape having to actually do anything that might expose the skeletons in their closets.

You've had almost six hundred years to get the process started. Are you telling me that none of your supposedly 'enligtened' bureaucrats is capable of making a decision without talking it over for six centuries?

Frankly, if the Empire is going to waste our time with negotiations in which they have no intent to participate, the least they could do is be honest about it and quit insulting our intelligence.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#90 - 2011-10-28 01:17:19 UTC
Again, sincerely. They can make decisions within a few hundreds years. They probably won't do much in that regard though, because, as I said, their thinking for a reason in millennia, rather than the years you do.

And yes, it's rather stalling things than allow you to push it into what it perceives as rash actions. Just because you feel like the Empire's wasting your time doesn't mean they've no interest to participate. It just means you lack the patience to put up with them.

What's insulting your intelligence is the inability to grasp the idea that Amarr work out things on a timescale bigger than merely a few hundreds of years.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#91 - 2011-10-28 01:37:25 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Again, sincerely. They can make decisions within a few hundreds years. They probably won't do much in that regard though, because, as I said, their thinking for a reason in millennia, rather than the years you do.

And yes, it's rather stalling things than allow you to push it into what it perceives as rash actions. Just because you feel like the Empire's wasting your time doesn't mean they've no interest to participate. It just means you lack the patience to put up with them.

What's insulting your intelligence is the inability to grasp the idea that Amarr work out things on a timescale bigger than merely a few hundreds of years.


You apparently think us fools.

I really don't know what else to say. You must think us fools, or idiots, or brainless dolts. You must think that we can't see through a very transparent attempt to justify your continued refusal to prove that you're more than just fancy words and a lot of hot air.

If you want this war to proceed (which I'm beginning to feel you do), we're more than ready to oblige you. Win or lose, though, the Amarr will go down in history as the Empire that triggered a war that they could have prevented.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#92 - 2011-10-28 03:21:16 UTC
Captain Stjerna,

Nicoletta has the right in this. A large chunk of the Amarrian upper class are hundreds of years old, kept alive through various technologies. They are used to thinking on a time scale that you or I, in our scant years, cannot even conceive of.

I highly doubt they are hoping you will forget about them. More to the point I think they are just trying to wait you out.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#93 - 2011-10-28 03:38:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Captain Stjerna,

Nicoletta has the right in this. A large chunk of the Amarrian upper class are hundreds of years old, kept alive through various technologies. They are used to thinking on a time scale that you or I, in our scant years, cannot even conceive of.

I highly doubt they are hoping you will forget about them. More to the point I think they are just trying to wait you out.


*Astrid sighs*

I don't know that hearing that makes me feel any better, honestly, but I apologize. It just gets so frustrating waiting for something that you know is probably never going to occur. We hear all sorts of promises, all sorts of assurances, but in the end, we always find ourselves disappointed.

'Waiting us out' may be a valid long-term strategy, but the rest of us are not posessed of five-hundred-year lifespans, and our patience is far from infinite; the Empire and the Republic might well be reduced to ash by the time they're done 'discussing' and choose to finally take action.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#94 - 2011-10-28 06:23:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mensha Khael Crow
Astrid Stjerna wrote:


So, in the interests of speeding things along, here's my proposal:

Present us with a clear and unambiguous timetable that shows that the Empire has at least the intent to offer a non-violent alternative to our current situation, and while I can't speak for my people as a whole, I will feel slightly more confident that we can trust you.


Depending on how you choose to count it current policy of the Imperial Throne will release those of Tribal blood within 450 to 900 years. Provided ofcourse there is no influx of new slaves of said heritage. -Say, from a war.

And also provided there are no changes to the policy.

Since you Matari clearly seem either unable or unwilling to understand it it seems I would do well to open up how the causality is seen from the Amarrian side. I will even shorten it for you to soundbytes.

The Elder invasion is reciprocated by the declaration of the 24th Crusade. Tribes are given within the speech and with the generational hardcap on slavery imposed the option to see their 'kin' peacefully released within a two to three Amarrian generations.

Were some holders to agree with your opinion that the Throne capitulated due to the Elder warcrimes. Let us say it might be more than just provincial holders openly questioning the authority on which such a hasty release schedule has been offered.

Stop the war. Show that you can feed those released and that they are safe even if they choose to hold the Faith. And your blood will be free in two generations of Amarrian nobility.

Or continue the war and terrorism, prove that no man of Faith is safe within your borders or ours as long as one of you is free.

And before you ask. Yes I think you fools. I also think you liars incapable of holding to treaties unless shackled to the very stone such a treaty is carved in. I would welcome you to prove me wrong but the Imperial Throne allready has. So far you have been proving me right.
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#95 - 2011-10-28 07:16:56 UTC
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
Depending on how you choose to count it current policy of the Imperial Throne will release those of Tribal blood within 450 to 900 years.


Quote:
Stop the war.
This is a rather unrealistic request. But that's the point, isn't it?
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#96 - 2011-10-28 07:23:34 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:


Stop the war.
This is a rather unrealistic request. But that's the point, isn't it?


Yes, it is rather unrealistic given the warlike nature of the Minmatar.

And yet, until the self-styled Elders launched their attack on the peace-loving Amarrian people a few years ago, we had enjoyed over a century without war.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#97 - 2011-10-28 07:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
So you expect us to tell our people to just be patient, everything might start to be resolved in another 500 years or so, after the Amarr graciously decide if it's OK to release more of our kin? I think not. Our patience is great but, not infinite.

And all the while you Amarr try to stall us, patronize us, lie to us, we'll be preparing.

While it's probable that we wouldn't "win" a direct conflict with the Empire it's also probable that the cost of subduing us would be so high and leave the Empire would be so weakened that the Sansha, Blood Raiders, or Angels would be more than happy to finish you off, and that's to say nothing of the Federation or State. Hell, maybe the Jove would reappear for a little quick and easy payback.

So go ahead and bet the future of your civilization on playing a waiting game if you dare.

P.S. Stop trying to play the poor aggrieved victim Blake. We didn't invade a peaceful Athra, enslave your ancestors and nearly destroy your entire culture, after all. The Elders would have never needed to attack you to free our people if you hadn't kidnapped them in the first damned place.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#98 - 2011-10-28 07:40:46 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
Depending on how you choose to count it current policy of the Imperial Throne will release those of Tribal blood within 450 to 900 years.


Quote:
Stop the war.
This is a rather unrealistic request. But that's the point, isn't it?


I did not request. That is what is currently offered to the tribes by the Imperial Throne. As long as you provide the Amarrians with legal slaves of first generation, through war on us and criminal action within our borders, so long there will be first generation slaves of tribal blood.

Or alternatively you might try getting the Imperial Throne to forbid Amarrians from legally enslaving those engaged in a war against us. And from enslaving criminals. However I doubt the Tribes currently have enough goodwill that the Imperial Throne would risk further discontent from Faithful on your behalf.

But I am certain you will just once again demand full release of all warprisoners and criminals proving once again the Faithful right. 
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#99 - 2011-10-28 07:58:01 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
So you expect us to tell our people to just be patient, everything might start to be resolved in another 500 years or so, after the Amarr graciously decide if it's OK to release more of our kin? I think not. Our patience is great but, not infinite.

And all the while you Amarr try to stall us, patronize us, lie to us, we'll be preparing.

While it's probable that we wouldn't "win" a direct conflict with the Empire it's also probable that the cost of subduing us would be so high and leave the Empire would be so weakened that the Sansha, Blood Raiders, or Angels would be more than happy to finish you off, and that's to say nothing of the Federation or State. Hell, maybe the Jove would reappear for a little quick and easy payback.

So go ahead and bet the future of your civilization on playing a waiting game if you dare.

P.S. Stop trying to play the poor aggrieved victim Blake. We didn't invade a peaceful Athra, enslave your ancestors and nearly destroy your entire culture, after all. The Elders would have never needed to attack you to free our people if you hadn't kidnapped them in the first damned place.


And here I thought I spoke plainly enough, clearly not.

Decision is whether the Empire can keep releasing souls from guidance to a nation at war with us and which continues to aggrieve our nobility. And indeed whether releasing people into starvation and persecution for their Faith is somehow defensible as a form of moral good.

Current policy holding, or being ratified within a treaty, means the release of slaves of ninth generation continues untill there are no slaves of tribal heritage. This is a currently ongoing policy. However I am glad tribalists such as yourself are doing your level best to prove that such a policy goes not only unappriciated but even unrecognized.

It is True Amarrian naval forces currently lack the ability to subjugate the tribal areas as per the fleet war doctrine in use so far. However it might come a time you prove yourself a threat enough to change that doctrine. 
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#100 - 2011-10-28 08:06:58 UTC
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
That is what is currently offered to the tribes by the Imperial Throne.
No, it isn't. It is what you, personally, would like the audience on IGS to believe what is offered by the Imperial Throne. Nothing more.

What is offered by the Imperial Throne is a reclaiming of our people. The goal of the 24th Imperial Crusade is to reclaim the Minmatar from the drudge, chaos and inhumanity in which they currently dwell, and into God's light. We are their angels. We must be their saviors.

No one knows why the Empress freed the 9th generation and above. You do not know, I do not know. All this fancy talk about how we only need to wait a second thousand years for you to fix your fuckups in the past is just that: Fancy talk with no backing.

And all these threats on how you will enslave us now, and it will be totally our fault this time around, is just the same: Fancy talk for you to feel righteous.

I have bad news for you. The Empire has grown weak. Pray that it has not become too weak, because if it has, people like you will be the undoing of millenia of patience.

And pray fast, for a change.