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Crime & Punishment

 
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GM Response On Bumping

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Author
Gui Tiaowu
Dolle Pirates
#361 - 2014-07-04 00:35:56 UTC
Looks like we're in agreement :

"Yes, Eve is a game full of bullies. In fact, they market that you "can be the villain" in this game. You didn't know this?"

Can be nicely summed up:

" So CCP enables and encourages bullying in EVE Online. Got it.



Revis Owen
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#362 - 2014-07-04 03:38:31 UTC
Gui Tiaowu wrote:
Looks like we're in agreement :
"Yes, Eve is a game full of bullies. In fact, they market that you "can be the villain" in this game. You didn't know this?"
Can be nicely summed up:
" So CCP enables and encourages bullying in EVE Online. Got it.


I agree with you some, but mostly disagree with you, friend. :)

I'm with you to a limited extent on "enables", but not "encourages".

As far as "enables", I see they enable too much the carebears and their incremental and ceaseless quest for Hello Kitty in space.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.

Gui Tiaowu
Dolle Pirates
#363 - 2014-07-04 13:00:22 UTC
As far as the "encouragement" is concerned, it would be convenient for CCP to deny this, however you spoke the truth:

"Yes, Eve is a game full of bullies. In fact, they market that you "can be the villain" in this game. You didn't know this?"

This sets the conditions for a full-spectrum of players who derive pleasure from bullying behavior.

There will be situations in which that behavior goes out of bounds (the "Real Life" meta-meta game) and CCP will have to arbitrate.

As far as your Carebear comment, I would say hisec is the quintessential bullying environment. Those deriving pleasure from bullying others can find Players neither looking for, nor prepared for PvP, and thanks to CCP lacking mechanics to counter with defensive PvP techniques.

Slap a simple bastion mode on a T2 barge so it can tank Catalysts until Concord arrives, or turn any and all Pilots that had been in a gank-fleet red in hisec for 24 hrs (are they not declaring war and should be in a wardec environment) and you'd have a balance.

As one of my friends put it.. PvPers looking for targets that can't shoot back. A condition not easily found in losec/nulsec.

CCP has been going "advantage offensive bully", and those are the conditions it set.

So, as said:

" So CCP enables and encourages bullying in EVE Online. Got it."

If CCP wants to do away with hisec, they should just do it. But as another friend of mine said, the minute they forget that EVE was not "..all about blowing up spaceships.." .. well, let's just say they are truncating the range of game play, and, yes...

they are advantaging the bullies.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#364 - 2014-07-06 12:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Gui Tiaowu wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
It's CCP's game, their rules and definitions are the only ones that count.
So CCP enables and encourages bullying in EVE Online. Got it.
Firstly fixed your post, if you're going to quote someone, at least attribute the quote, it's polite to do so.

Secondly, it's a game, it has rules and definitions specific to it. If you don't like the rules or definitions, then don't play the game.

What you perceive as bullying is actually people with ambition using creative gameplay and teamwork to achieve their ends, all of which is actively encouraged by CCP and the nature of the game.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Gui Tiaowu
Dolle Pirates
#365 - 2014-07-06 20:32:32 UTC
For bullies, the "ends" are merely satisfying the impulse to bully. The fact others will join them in their ends is unfortunately an historic truth. We find bullies building elaborate justifications for their bullying behavior and viewing peer participation as validation.

The discussion was about CCP enabling and encouraging bullying. And indeed, CCP is in charge of the meta-meta-game in RL, and their determinations are what counts. We agree on that. However, the notion you either accept it or leave the game is not entirely viable in a pay-for-service environment that has demonstrated quite a bit of democracy in the past. However, I'm sure bullies appreciate the idea of "luv-it-or-leave-it".

The idea that CCP is being overly influenced by the bullies should be revisited frequently lest the expanding empowerment of bully behavior be construed as validation.

I had lost my post several times attempting to use the quote function and therefore abandoned it. I'm not a professional forum pundit.
Soylent Jade
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#366 - 2014-07-07 18:49:38 UTC
Confirming PvP in a PvP game is bullying.

Just when you think this thread is dead, some quality tears pop up. I swear people cry about this more than actually being ganked. I might have to start bumping...

Making hisec better...one Catalyst at a time

minerbumping.com

Gui Tiaowu
Dolle Pirates
#367 - 2014-07-07 19:26:45 UTC
For bullies, the "ends" are merely satisfying the impulse to bully. The fact others will join them in their ends is unfortunately an historic truth.

We find bullies building elaborate justifications for their bullying behavior. For some it is the rationalization that it is all just PvP in a PvP game.

Not to mention, CCP enables and encourages bullying.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#368 - 2014-07-07 19:30:56 UTC
Gui Tiaowu wrote:
For bullies, the "ends" are merely satisfying the impulse to bully. The fact others will join them in their ends is unfortunately an historic truth.

We find bullies building elaborate justifications for their bullying behavior. For some it is the rationalization that it is all just PvP in a PvP game.

Not to mention, CCP enables and encourages bullying.


kek


Know where thats from?

Go back.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Gui Tiaowu
Dolle Pirates
#369 - 2014-07-07 19:52:14 UTC
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#370 - 2014-07-07 20:33:08 UTC
PvP = Player vs. Player.

This is Eve. You must not be used to it.

Perhaps kek is better suited for you.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#371 - 2014-07-07 20:48:21 UTC
Gui Tiaowu wrote:


I am confused.....

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Gui Tiaowu
Dolle Pirates
#372 - 2014-07-07 21:50:13 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Gui Tiaowu wrote:


I am confused.....


Me too. Maybe Capt Starfox could clarify by stating something like:

"Every now and then sensible and fundamentally decent people will embark, all of a sudden, on courses of which they themselves are the first to disapprove. In these cases the evil-doer acts as though he were possessed by some entity different from and hostile to his ordinary self. In fact, he is the victim of a neutral mechanism, which has got out of hand and, from being the servant of its possessor, has become his master."

See if I got the quote thing right.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#373 - 2014-07-07 21:58:09 UTC
Nice copy and paste skills.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#374 - 2014-07-07 22:06:10 UTC
Gui Tiaowu wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Gui Tiaowu wrote:


I am confused.....


Me too. Maybe Capt Starfox could clarify by stating something like:

"Every now and then sensible and fundamentally decent people will embark, all of a sudden, on courses of which they themselves are the first to disapprove. In these cases the evil-doer acts as though he were possessed by some entity different from and hostile to his ordinary self. In fact, he is the victim of a neutral mechanism, which has got out of hand and, from being the servant of its possessor, has become his master."

See if I got the quote thing right.


And that has what to do with my kill board?

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Puppy Eating
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#375 - 2014-07-07 22:09:39 UTC
Meh, just remove ship-ship collisions, save the server CPU time.

It's not like we are really piloting the ships anyway.

I was so disappointed when I found my joystick was useless for EVE when I first tried it.
Gui Tiaowu
Dolle Pirates
#376 - 2014-07-07 22:14:01 UTC
It didn't have anything to do with your killboard. I thought it clarified the confusion nicely.
Gui Tiaowu
Dolle Pirates
#377 - 2014-07-07 22:19:38 UTC
Puppy Eating wrote:
Meh, just remove ship-ship collisions, save the server CPU time.

It's not like we are really piloting the ships anyway.

I was so disappointed when I found my joystick was useless for EVE when I first tried it.


You might be in the wrong forum channel.

We were discussing how CCP enables and encourages bullying in EVE Online.

But we are really piloting our ships.. just not with a joystick.
Alyth Nerun
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#378 - 2014-07-07 22:24:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alyth Nerun
Dragnkat wrote:
Personally I'd like an answer better then move to another location please. Because in the case of ice this is something both CCP and the GM need to understand. There is not one usually within a reasonable distance.

You can't just jump one system over or change one belt. You have to make 5-7 jump trips, you have to move ships, you have to then haul longer distances. All because of what just happened to me and a corp mate. A character in a maller was ramming every barge in the belt making ice mining impossible, even if you tried to orbit and evade him, his actions were disruptive and made our undertaking playing the game as we desired impossible.

Why do you think CCP should single you out to enable you to play the game as you desire? Why not me? I want to pew pew your barges all day long without CONCORD or white knights interfering.

But obviously that's not how the game works, it's a sandbox with rules and many players fighting about limited resources. You want that risk free Highsec ice? Why should you get it without effort when others invest time to control it with what tools are left to project power in Highsec.

Dragnkat wrote:

And we have zero recourse against this. He gets away scott free protected by CONCORD. And we are the ones forced to leave because his ship can't be attacked, evasion is a no go, we don't have someone to try and bump him back (which would be an exploit fighting an exploit) There's no point i nwar dec'ing or hiring mercs over a single bumper, and even then you could avoid that by being in an npc corp. All the while he gets off because of CCP's own stupid rule where harassment is only harassment if you are followed. There's no point in him following because he accomplished his goal of insuring people can't mine the ice. Why would he follow?

It was people like you who closed that door for yourself and everyone else by demanding a stronger CONCORD and more safety.

It was people like you who demanded that the exploit where you close a corp and immediately reopen it is no longer regarded as an exploit so you can avoid wardecs easily.

And it is people like you who demand that there is the possibility of a wardec free NPC corp so their 10 Skiff pilots are protected by the omnipresent, all knowing and invincible CONCORD at all times.

So please cry more about how the demands of your people from the past makes bumper pilots almost invincible.

Dragnkat wrote:

So if we can not within the rules of the game take action against someone who is quite obviously to everyone abusing EVE mechanics, is engaging in what for him is (And this is the point that can't be stressed enough given the mentality of EVE players telling people to HTFU and you are "never safe") --CONSEQUENCE FREE-- PVP activity. How is it not abuse of the rules, mechanics, and an exploit?

What about the --CONSEQUENCE FREE-- gathering of resources? Why should the bumper face consequences from CONCORD or CCP while the miner can mine in complete safety? How about you need to go suspect to mine ice? That would certainly make things a bit more interesting.

Dragnkat wrote:

And when a player is intentionally disrupting other players actions by an activity that serves no benefit to himself, and meant purely to be disruptive? Please explain to me how in the world that is not the classic mmo definition (to everyone but CCP anyway) of griefing, and exploiting the rules of EVE to accomplish his actions?

Most bumpers like myself will ask money from you. In my case you will also have to follow the Code. If you don't agree you may use the tools available to remove me. CCP is not one of this tools.

Dragnkat wrote:

CCP needs to get it through there heads bumping is an exploit of the highest order, and something needs to be done about it. It is not "emergent gameplay" it is harassment pure and simple, so why will the devs and GM staff not treat it as such?

EDIT: Oh and a fun little thought too if you want to get reeeeallly technical about this. If I'm harassed by a bumper in an ice spawn in a single system, but then later on in the same day or two I'm "followed" and this same bumper continues to harass players in a second or third ice spawn have we crossed that harassment line yet CCP?

CCP just recently buffet a set of ships with the pure intention to give you a tool to counter bumping. But yet again here we have some unsatisfied miner who has no intention to actually do the research about how he can avoid bumps by using this new options. Not that it wasn't possible before the buff, it's just ridiculously easier now.

You know, when James 315 years ago pointed out that this constant pattern of people like you crying for CCPs help is destroying Highsec, people where laughing at him. But you are so persistent that by now probably everyone who pays just a little bit of attention has accepted how right he is. And those people fill our war chest, so thanks for your tears, they are worth billions.

Posts like this just fuel my dedication to this path in EVE and I bet I am not the only one.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#379 - 2014-07-07 22:32:28 UTC
Gui Tiaowu wrote:

We were discussing how I think CCP enables and encourages bullying in EVE Online.


I fixed for you.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet

Gui Tiaowu
Dolle Pirates
#380 - 2014-07-07 22:41:34 UTC
CCP enables and encourages bullying in EVE online, and they can be influenced to moderate it, and have in fact moderated it in the past.

In an earlier post I suggested perhaps CCP should simply do away with hisec. What's the point? All positive from my perspective. All pilots would have access to all the PvP mechanics available in nulsec (let's just go for nulsec), and bullies would be deprived of the gratification of gratuitous griefing.

Also, there are PvP mechanics for hisec. If pilots are engaged in illegal ganking operations, that is declaration of war on CONCORD defacto, and those pilots in fleet prior to and during the gank should be red to all hisec pilots for 24 hours.

Certainly this is consistent with existing mechanics and rules, and certainly proud "PvPers" would not eschew the additional "content".

No, my friend, your argument amounts to no more than an elaborate self-justification for bullying. It has no merit.

The practitioners are what they are.