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Crime & Punishment

 
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GM Response On Bumping

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Grandpa Nickles
Zero-G Engineering.
#301 - 2013-12-14 09:30:21 UTC
What you feel is your opinion, I asked on balancing issues, not on the validity of the act. As my post is to do with bumping, just in the context of warping I feel this thread is appropriate. Despite my repeated requests you have still not presented any valid argument for or against regarding the balance issue I raised.
I do feel that I a have the freedom and right to discuss any issue whether you agree with it or feel it is appropriate or not. If you feel my post is in the wrong thread, you need only send a request to have it moved.
Lets just leave it at that as I think our own discussion has already gone on too long at the expense of this thread, lets just agree to disagree on the matter. You can evemail / message me in game for further discussions if you feel this is necessary.

As ever
Nickles
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#302 - 2013-12-14 20:08:48 UTC
IIshira wrote:
I'm not against PVP or suicide ganking. I've done both.

I am against using some lame tactic such as bumping to prevent a player from warping. I understand that bumping is used to counter station games. This is another lame tactic I'm not fond of. Okay let me agress and then when I realize I'm about to die I deagress then dock. Or even better have a neutral Orca warp in to save the day.

If you want to agress someone you should risk losing your ship.

How about making the agression timer longer so you can't just dock up. If you're not playing the "let's hug the station" game you can just warp from safe spot to safe spot while the timer runs out. Bumping no longer needed.


Again this form has gotten of topic with "you can't tell me what to say" and "I'll say what I want!" Very good guys but this has nothing to do with the topic and only derails the thread.

My main point of this post was if you want to agress someone you should risk losing your ship. Does anyone have something to comment about this?

Just trying to get things back on topic so the thread doesn't get locked for lack of content
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#303 - 2013-12-14 21:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
IIshira wrote:
My main point of this post was if you want to agress someone you should risk losing your ship. Does anyone have something to comment about this?

Just trying to get things back on topic so the thread doesn't get locked for lack of content

If bumping was considered to be aggression, the fun and games at the undock of Jita 4-4 would be absolutely hilarious. I think that it's probably extremely hard to code something that can distinguish between accidental and deliberate bumpage, which is possibly why CCP have left well alone, outside of the stuff that's considered an exploit.

I think the following probably applies in this instance, older and more experienced players would definitely take advantage of any changes to the bumping mechanic, to the detriment of those that don't have the experience to do so.

Malcanis wrote:
Malcanis' Law - Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of new players, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. The corollary is that when new players propose a change, they invariably lack the experience and insight to see how the change would again be exploited by older players far more efficiently than themselves.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#304 - 2013-12-14 23:10:04 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
IIshira wrote:
My main point of this post was if you want to agress someone you should risk losing your ship. Does anyone have something to comment about this?

Just trying to get things back on topic so the thread doesn't get locked for lack of content

If bumping was considered to be aggression, the fun and games at the undock of Jita 4-4 would be absolutely hilarious. I think that it's probably extremely hard to code something that can distinguish between accidental and deliberate bumpage, which is possibly why CCP have left well alone, outside of the stuff that's considered an exploit.

I think my sig probably applies in this instance, older and more experienced players would definitely take advantage of any changes to the bumping mechanic, to the detriment of those that don't have the experience to do so.


Agreed you can't make bumping an aggressive act. It would be impossible to determine if it was accidental or intentional

What you can do is make bumping not affect going into warp.

One should not be able to warp distrupt another player without some risk. Highsec bumpers are protected by Convord while they safely warp distrupt other players. This makes no sense. You want to attack me fine but I can't defend myself? Obviously a broken game mechanic.

As I said before I hate station games so I understand the need for bumping off stations. Simple fix is you can't dock right away. Make the session change longer so you can die on station if you agrees.

Another broken mechanic related to this is have a neutral Orca warp in and you're safe... Really?
Vidua Arte Album
Epic Boo Bees
#305 - 2013-12-17 08:42:53 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
IIshira wrote:
My main point of this post was if you want to agress someone you should risk losing your ship. Does anyone have something to comment about this?

Just trying to get things back on topic so the thread doesn't get locked for lack of content

If bumping was considered to be aggression, the fun and games at the undock of Jita 4-4 would be absolutely hilarious. I think that it's probably extremely hard to code something that can distinguish between accidental and deliberate bumpage, which is possibly why CCP have left well alone, outside of the stuff that's considered an exploit.

I think my sig probably applies in this instance, older and more experienced players would definitely take advantage of any changes to the bumping mechanic, to the detriment of those that don't have the experience to do so.


Agreed you can't make bumping an aggressive act. It would be impossible to determine if it was accidental or intentional

What you can do is make bumping not affect going into warp.

One should not be able to warp distrupt another player without some risk. Highsec bumpers are protected by Convord while they safely warp distrupt other players. This makes no sense. You want to attack me fine but I can't defend myself? Obviously a broken game mechanic.

As I said before I hate station games so I understand the need for bumping off stations. Simple fix is you can't dock right away. Make the session change longer so you can die on station if you agrees.

Another broken mechanic related to this is have a neutral Orca warp in and you're safe... Really?
I've read all this and I'm still waiting for something substantial.

"What you can do is make bumping not affect going into warp."

I am sitting here waiting for you to explain how "we" or "I" am able to do this. I know you're talking about CCP, but besides
that minor point, if you know it can be done, you know how it can be done, so explain it.

Not even going into the rest of the post ... one step at a time.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#306 - 2013-12-17 10:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
Vidua Arte Album wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
IIshira wrote:
My main point of this post was if you want to agress someone you should risk losing your ship. Does anyone have something to comment about this?

Just trying to get things back on topic so the thread doesn't get locked for lack of content

If bumping was considered to be aggression, the fun and games at the undock of Jita 4-4 would be absolutely hilarious. I think that it's probably extremely hard to code something that can distinguish between accidental and deliberate bumpage, which is possibly why CCP have left well alone, outside of the stuff that's considered an exploit.

I think my sig probably applies in this instance, older and more experienced players would definitely take advantage of any changes to the bumping mechanic, to the detriment of those that don't have the experience to do so.


Agreed you can't make bumping an aggressive act. It would be impossible to determine if it was accidental or intentional

What you can do is make bumping not affect going into warp.

One should not be able to warp distrupt another player without some risk. Highsec bumpers are protected by Convord while they safely warp distrupt other players. This makes no sense. You want to attack me fine but I can't defend myself? Obviously a broken game mechanic.

As I said before I hate station games so I understand the need for bumping off stations. Simple fix is you can't dock right away. Make the session change longer so you can die on station if you agrees.

Another broken mechanic related to this is have a neutral Orca warp in and you're safe... Really?
I've read all this and I'm still waiting for something substantial.

"What you can do is make bumping not affect going into warp."

I am sitting here waiting for you to explain how "we" or "I" am able to do this. I know you're talking about CCP, but besides
that minor point, if you know it can be done, you know how it can be done, so explain it.

Not even going into the rest of the post ... one step at a time.


I know with many other MMOs players cannot physically block each other's movement. How that translates into computer code I have no idea but it has been done.

Of course this would also eliminate bumping all together but fix aggression timers to eliminate station games and this isn't an issue.

The reason CCP doesn't want to change it currently is they're looking at it from a business perspective (Rightfully so). How many people keep their subscription because they're entertained by this bumping mechanic vs how many loss because it's faulty. Even if it's lame it's currently used as a form of "safe PVP" so that keeps those subscribers interested and they continue to pay.

I personally disagree with being able to warp disrupt a pilot while under the protection of CONCORD. I can't agree with any PVP where one party involved is not at risk of losing his ship. There should be no "Safe PVP" in Eve... I noticed no one has touched this because how can you defend it on a gameplay perspective. I can defend it on a CCP money perspective because they want subscribers that don't want to lose.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#307 - 2013-12-22 17:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
if ships fly through each other, does that mean i have no way to prevent someone from warping in high or low sec if i am ECM jammed or damped so much that it takes ages to lock? does it also mean i cannot bump someone off of station or gate when they are trying to de-agress after they have opened fire upon my friends and i show up?

i'd much prefer bumping to exist. it is a valuable option in PvP.

Quote:
The reason CCP doesn't want to change it currently is they're looking at it from a business perspective (Rightfully so). How many people keep their subscription because they're entertained by this bumping mechanic vs how many loss because it's faulty. Even if it's lame it's currently used as a form of "safe PVP" so that keeps those subscribers interested and they continue to pay.


lol what?
the demographic u are referring to have one use for bumping. however the same mechanic of bumping can also be used to counter 'safe PvP' of ppl fighting off of stations and gates. Bumping is also a great way of preventing super caps from warping away when u are in low sec and dnt have a hictor handy.

i can see how removing bumping improves ur little world, but what about the rest of us?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#308 - 2013-12-22 19:50:13 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
if ships fly through each other, does that mean i have no way to prevent someone from warping in high or low sec if i am ECM jammed or damped so much that it takes ages to lock? does it also mean i cannot bump someone off of station or gate when they are trying to de-agress after they have opened fire upon my friends and i show up?

i'd much prefer bumping to exist. it is a valuable option in PvP.

Quote:
The reason CCP doesn't want to change it currently is they're looking at it from a business perspective (Rightfully so). How many people keep their subscription because they're entertained by this bumping mechanic vs how many loss because it's faulty. Even if it's lame it's currently used as a form of "safe PVP" so that keeps those subscribers interested and they continue to pay.


lol what?
the demographic u are referring to have one use for bumping. however the same mechanic of bumping can also be used to counter 'safe PvP' of ppl fighting off of stations and gates. Bumping is also a great way of preventing super caps from warping away when u are in low sec and dnt have a hictor handy.

i can see how removing bumping improves ur little world, but what about the rest of us?


Again if you eliminate the ability to quickly deagress and dock there would be no need to "bump" ships off stations. I absolutely agree that people shouldn't be able to play these silly station games. Come out and fight I say! Twisted

If you're fighting a super cap and don't even have one HIC in your fleet you deserve to lose that kill... I know that sounds mean but come on how hard it is to have one or two in your fleet?
Thufir Bezluden
Doomheim
#309 - 2014-01-07 06:18:05 UTC
EVE is at its core a PVP game... bumping is not pvp and does not lead to pvp; it leads to people pissed at CCP instead of players. Sure, NPC player can hire merc, do something else, join player corp, but the bumping cannot really be fought right then and there while your pissed as hell and ready to open fire on someone with more SP and experience almost ensuring your death and lots of tears...

but wait...

the bumper just went suspect flagged... PVP

Whip up some maths to make bumping invoke a suspect flag which will sure as hell instigate some PVP if there are combat drones out and set to aggressive.

Bumper bangs into Bumpee...

1) Was Bumper going faster than 3x base ship velocity?
yes, bumper gets suspect flag -good chance for PVP if bumpee is pissed enough or drones on agressive.
no, bumper doesn't get suspect flag -good velocity control.

2) Has Bumper bumped a player "x" number of times within 5 minute time period?
yes, bumper gets suspect flag -good chance for multiple pvp partners.
no, no suspect flag -good self-control -maybe.

3) Has Bumpee been stuck in warp longer than 2 minutes and been bumped within 2.5 minutes?
yes, suspect flag on bumper.
no, pilot is an idiot.

I'm sure there are lots of fun ways to turn a mechanic like bumping, which only becomes PVP if someone turns to suicide ganking, into loads of PVP fun for everyone -especially the semi-afk idiot with their drones on aggressive.
Leost
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#310 - 2014-01-14 15:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Leost
{Removed reply which discussed issues of bumping in respects to warp mechanics which are not in line with original thread post.}
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#311 - 2014-01-27 22:40:10 UTC
the first post of this thread is vague and muddled

this isn't a ruling, its political blather, a flimsy argument to justify questionable mechanics that can't be fixed.

I personally have no issues with bumping, but seriously GM staff, that "ruling" is complete craptrap
Sky' Darkstar
Magnetar Dynamics
#312 - 2014-01-29 01:42:45 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis.


LMAO. Real harsh backstabbing universe you got there.

-Sky'
Jessie JoeCarr
Minmatar Expeditions ltd.
#313 - 2014-02-10 16:15:06 UTC
I don't know if this has been thought of, but what about a deployable web? All ships within a 5km radius are slowed to minimal speed... It'd stop people bumping miners, I'm currently having to hide my barge in a group of roids for the same effect. Guy keeps ramming me with his stabber at full speed... I've told him repeatedly I'm not paying... but he continues to do it... it spoils the game. Might seem pathetic but what if CCP took out all the lasers? wouldn't that ruin it for those who like shooting stuff? I enjoy my own RP, currently mining to get an Orca, but this kid ramming me just throws it all out of wack...

The guy is the ONLY one in the system doing it... he bugs everyone... i it was a system with 3-6 of them doing it... ok but it's one looser doing it.... he needs to be moved on or something...
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#314 - 2014-02-10 16:24:47 UTC
Jessie JoeCarr wrote:
I don't know if this has been thought of, but what about a deployable web? All ships within a 5km radius are slowed to minimal speed... It'd stop people bumping miners, I'm currently having to hide my barge in a group of roids for the same effect. Guy keeps ramming me with his stabber at full speed... I've told him repeatedly I'm not paying... but he continues to do it... it spoils the game. Might seem pathetic but what if CCP took out all the lasers? wouldn't that ruin it for those who like shooting stuff? I enjoy my own RP, currently mining to get an Orca, but this kid ramming me just throws it all out of wack...

The guy is the ONLY one in the system doing it... he bugs everyone... i it was a system with 3-6 of them doing it... ok but it's one looser doing it.... he needs to be moved on or something...


Even if this existed propulsion jamming to include webbing is an aggressive act and will get CONCORD response. It's like a weird reversal where the griefers (bumpers) are protected by CONCORD from the miners LOL
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#315 - 2014-02-10 17:10:29 UTC
Jessie JoeCarr wrote:
I don't know if this has been thought of, but what about a deployable web? All ships within a 5km radius are slowed to minimal speed... It'd stop people bumping miners, I'm currently having to hide my barge in a group of roids for the same effect. Guy keeps ramming me with his stabber at full speed... I've told him repeatedly I'm not paying... but he continues to do it... it spoils the game. Might seem pathetic but what if CCP took out all the lasers? wouldn't that ruin it for those who like shooting stuff? I enjoy my own RP, currently mining to get an Orca, but this kid ramming me just throws it all out of wack...

The guy is the ONLY one in the system doing it... he bugs everyone... i it was a system with 3-6 of them doing it... ok but it's one looser doing it.... he needs to be moved on or something...


He isnt ruining your game. He is providing you an opportunity to participate in the game rather than play solo. Also what difference does it make if he is the only one there? He is trying to maximize his profit margin... doesnt make him a loser.

Sandbox man. Sandbox.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#316 - 2014-02-10 19:00:00 UTC
Thufir Bezluden wrote:
EVE is at its core a PVP game... bumping is not pvp and does not lead to pvp; it leads to people pissed at CCP instead of players. Sure, NPC player can hire merc, do something else, join player corp, but the bumping cannot really be fought right then and there while your pissed as hell and ready to open fire on someone with more SP and experience almost ensuring your death and lots of tears...

but wait...

the bumper just went suspect flagged... PVP

Whip up some maths to make bumping invoke a suspect flag which will sure as hell instigate some PVP if there are combat drones out and set to aggressive.

Bumper bangs into Bumpee...

1) Was Bumper going faster than 3x base ship velocity?
yes, bumper gets suspect flag -good chance for PVP if bumpee is pissed enough or drones on agressive.
no, bumper doesn't get suspect flag -good velocity control.

2) Has Bumper bumped a player "x" number of times within 5 minute time period?
yes, bumper gets suspect flag -good chance for multiple pvp partners.
no, no suspect flag -good self-control -maybe.

3) Has Bumpee been stuck in warp longer than 2 minutes and been bumped within 2.5 minutes?
yes, suspect flag on bumper.
no, pilot is an idiot.

I'm sure there are lots of fun ways to turn a mechanic like bumping, which only becomes PVP if someone turns to suicide ganking, into loads of PVP fun for everyone -especially the semi-afk idiot with their drones on aggressive.


If they make bumping into an aggressive act someone will find a way to exploit it. Just remove the ability to bump other players in the game and the problem is solved.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#317 - 2014-02-10 19:02:02 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Jessie JoeCarr wrote:
I don't know if this has been thought of, but what about a deployable web? All ships within a 5km radius are slowed to minimal speed... It'd stop people bumping miners, I'm currently having to hide my barge in a group of roids for the same effect. Guy keeps ramming me with his stabber at full speed... I've told him repeatedly I'm not paying... but he continues to do it... it spoils the game. Might seem pathetic but what if CCP took out all the lasers? wouldn't that ruin it for those who like shooting stuff? I enjoy my own RP, currently mining to get an Orca, but this kid ramming me just throws it all out of wack...

The guy is the ONLY one in the system doing it... he bugs everyone... i it was a system with 3-6 of them doing it... ok but it's one looser doing it.... he needs to be moved on or something...


He isnt ruining your game. He is providing you an opportunity to participate in the game rather than play solo. Also what difference does it make if he is the only one there? He is trying to maximize his profit margin... doesnt make him a loser.

Sandbox man. Sandbox.


If it's just one guy get a bunch of friends together and gank him. After being ganked a few times he'll move on to easier targets.
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#318 - 2014-02-11 14:51:40 UTC
IIshira wrote:
If it's just one guy get a bunch of friends together and gank him. After being ganked a few times he'll move on to easier targets.


Yes...please attempt a failgank against a bumper so he has 30 days of kill rights on your Orca and/or blingy exhumer.
Whittorical Quandary
Amarrian Infinity
#319 - 2014-02-12 05:53:53 UTC
does this mean if im not targeting someone, i can randomly ram all the people i want that come out of a station?

Sounds like fun lol

"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine."

— Abraham Lincoln
Arenwa Damarmur
DragonFire Industries Inc.
#320 - 2014-02-13 00:32:29 UTC
Why not develop a module or a rig that prevents a ship from being bumped out of alignment?