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CCP... The Simple Solution to the NPC Corp Issue
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Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#381 - 2013-01-30 18:42:01 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:

I am a member of a player run corporation in Hi Sec, and why is it important to anyone else to have an impact on me?

Because you do not exist in a bubble that has no impact on anyone else.

You have impact on people when you do missions, you create isk.

You have impact on people when you use the market, you contribute to the economy.


YOU SHOULD be rewarded for joining a player run corp, and you are not adiquately rewarded in my opinion.


no disrespect intended but if you were busier where you live you would have less time to be in here discussing what happens to players in NPC corps that are largely based in high sec. Im glad you have an opinion but realistically you should be putting your energy into lobbying for changes to other parts of the game.

:tinfoil:

Or maybe you shouldnt?

This is the 5th or 6th large thread I have seen where players from your alliance are calling for change that would allow your alliance more control over the whole map, not just the blue donut shaped part of it.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#382 - 2013-01-30 18:42:14 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

They really need to allow corps to tax all revenue streams in this game...

Refining/Reprocessing, Trade, Missions Rewards, etc....

And then all NPC corps should have fairly un-competitive Tax Rates on all of these revenue streams.... You should ALWAYS be at a disadvantage when residing in a war-dec immune Corp... and that disadvantage should come in the form of taxed revenue streams. That would encourage people to move out of NPC corps... but it won't eliminate it...

I would potentially support the creation of Pacifist Corps -- (Wardeccable Player Corps... with limitations, but also some hurdles to anyone that Wardecs them).

In the end though... there is a fundemental issue here:

Player A doesn't want to engage in Ship-to-Ship Combat....
Player B wants to engage in Ship-to-Ship Combat...

Wardec's allow Player B to engage Player A... which is necessary for the game... However, there is little-to-no incentive for Player A to fight... You can't force him to undock, you can't force him to fight, and in the end, Wardecs often (not always) result in Player A simply not playing and Player B getting no kills... This is fundamentally flawed...

So, how do you encourage a player to Defend themselves... to fight? The truth is, allies are supposed to solve this.. but they haven't yet...

--- I think the "optimal" solution is a player solution... (kinda like dec-shield). Have some group declare a common mining system (like osmon), or a common missioning system (like Dodixie) as their protectorate... Anyone that want's to mine/mission in their system can... and if some "griefer corp" wardecs a corporation operating in their zone of control they'll willing allie up with the carebear to help defend them... That's the optimal solution, and I don't understand why it hasn't happened yet... (You'd think some branch of CVA would do this in the busy Amarr areas)...

In the end, players just need to organize, to group up... and players that hide in NPC corps actually HINDER this process, because they provide an easy-alternative to "stay safe" rather than encourage people to man up!

Taxing for the sake of encouraging didn't work. They tried, it failed.

The idea is not to create more one man corps, which is all taxing does. It's to get you playing in corporations WITH other people in them.

If a station has a high tax for NPC corp palyers, it should be entirely because the players running the station decided it should be that way.

Corporations that set low taxes would be points of contention.
If NPC corp members are arbitrarily taxed higher, then the "point" of setting taxes becomes somewhat shallow for the corporation setting them.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#383 - 2013-01-30 18:42:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


So you've never used your LP to buy anything? Every item you take from the LP store and put on the market lowers the value of that same item for everyone else.

and who said anything about hurting other people. Your actions DO have consequences , some of which you cannot even see.

BECAUSE what you do affects others, you too should somehow be affected, either through the threat or actuality of a war dec (which I am NOT adovcating for npc corps), OR (and this is what I suggest) you should pay an alternative cost 9beyond the tiny costs npc corps have right now).

The NPC corp people getting to enjoy the preponderance of stuff in the game while getting to avoid one of its best balancing mechanisms (War) is kinda like people living in a country getting all the benefits of government programs while not paying very much in taxes (while their fellow citizens ARE paying those high taxes). Yea, NPC corps basically = EVE Welfare lol.

people should not be forces out of npc corps and npc corps (except FW corps) should not be war deccable, but the cost npc corp players pay for the awesome benefit of safety is to low and should rise.


No. None of my characters has ever bought anything from an LP store.The first time I went into an LP store, I didn't have enough to buy anything that I needed, so I never went back. Why should I?

Why are you making such a big deal about balancing things? I doubt that it is your responsibility to balance the game for other people. Why not leave them alone? Just because they have something you don't?

A lot of people are in NPC corps because they don't want to interact, don't want to PvP, don't want to be war decced.

Why do you feel it is your responsibility/duty to force them to interact? They pay their subscription fees to help keep the game going. Why not leave them alone rather than try to force them to play the game your way. A way that they might not like at all.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#384 - 2013-01-30 18:43:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Not Politically Correct wrote:

The only difference I can see in running missions for an NPC corp is that I know what my bounty and reward taxes are used for.

But who do I hurt by running missions, either for my corp or an NPC corp?

Not everyone plays for the opportunity to hurt other people.

In a player driven economy, every bit of ISK generated, every bit of ore mined, changes said economy. The buying power of your ISK competes with other people's ISK, the minerals you sell lessen the overall demand on ore per unit, imperceptibly altering the price other players who do run the risk of PVP command. ISK grinding anywhere does not occur in a vacuum, not even in an NPC corp. Letting isk and commodities being endlessly injected into this system risk free, NPC corp or no, has definite consequences.

For example, here's a pic of a multiboxed 20-man mining fleet. Thanks to wardec evasion techniques like NPC corps, the risk or need to pay attention from running 20 barges at once is minimal. But the amount of ore dumped on the market by enough setups like this will definitely lower the income of true casual gamers and newbies who rely on mining income. In order to remain competitive, they are faced with the choice of employing PvP evasion as possible and multibox in order to undercut the competition, or simply accept that their work will consistently derive less and less income.

To say you want to take part in a competitive player driven market, but wish to be exempt from other aspects of in-game competition to gain an advantage over other players is no different then a PVPer wanting to opt out of the player-driven economy because he doesn't want to pay you the price you want for some ships your selling. He should just be able to pay you what he feels is a fair price for your work.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#385 - 2013-01-30 18:46:40 UTC
so if a player in a player run corp sits in Jita 4-4 all day as a trader, never undocks but turns over billions of ISK everyday, what then?
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#386 - 2013-01-30 18:47:52 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:

I am a member of a player run corporation in Hi Sec, and why is it important to anyone else to have an impact on me?

Because you do not exist in a bubble that has no impact on anyone else.

You have impact on people when you do missions, you create isk.

You have impact on people when you use the market, you contribute to the economy.


YOU SHOULD be rewarded for joining a player run corp, and you are not adiquately rewarded in my opinion.


no disrespect intended but if you were busier where you live you would have less time to be in here discussing what happens to players in NPC corps that are largely based in high sec. Im glad you have an opinion but realistically you should be putting your energy into lobbying for changes to other parts of the game.

:tinfoil:

Or maybe you shouldnt?

This is the 5th or 6th large thread I have seen where players from your alliance are calling for change that would allow your alliance more control over the whole map, not just the blue donut shaped part of it.

That's exactly what I'm doing.

I'm lobbying for changes to help null.
Things like improves STATION MANAGEMENT. Which would be a logical thing to do if you were to give high sec station control.

My industrial issues would fall into the station management stuff. Suprisingly, a good portion of my industrial issues stem from NPC corp production of T2 goods in high sec, what a shocker!

My only recourse against this group of people, is ganking. An entire group of people are impacting me at no cost, and I'm required to pay at the ass to impact them back? That's not right.


My little campaign for high sec station conrol has EVERYTHING to do with my issues in null sec.

I've also written a bit about more control over PvE in null, as in system owners being able to "place" PvE conflict drivers that encourage people to converge on these points in null, within their own space.


You should like, read things and stuff, before you start spurging all over your keyboard because you saw the words "GoonWaffe" under someones name.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#387 - 2013-01-30 18:50:57 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
so if a player in a player run corp sits in Jita 4-4 all day as a trader, never undocks but turns over billions of ISK everyday, what then?

Some of you guys really have no understanding at all of economics do you?

If you have to ask such a basic question, you aren't smart enough to understand the answer.
Children learn the answer to that question for crying out loud.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#388 - 2013-01-30 18:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Not Politically Correct
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:

The only difference I can see in running missions for an NPC corp is that I know what my bounty and reward taxes are used for.

But who do I hurt by running missions, either for my corp or an NPC corp?

Not everyone plays for the opportunity to hurt other people.

In a player driven economy, every bit of ISK generated, every bit of ore mined, changes said economy. The buying power of your ISK competes with other people's ISK, the minerals you sell lessen the overall demand on ore per unit, imperceptibly altering the price other players who do run the risk of PVP command. ISK grinding anywhere does not occur in a vacuum, not even in an NPC corp. Letting isk and commodities being endlessly injected into this system risk free, NPC corp or no, has definite consequences.

For example, here's a pic of a multiboxed 20-man mining fleet. Thanks to wardec evasion tecniques like NPC corps, the risk or needto pay attention from running 20 barges at once is minimal. But the amount of ore dumped on the market by enough setups like this will definitely lowert the income of true casual gamers and newbies who rely on mining income. In order to remain competitive, they are faced with the choice of employing PvP evasion as possible and multibox in order to , or simply accept that their work will consistently derive less and less income.

To say you want to take part in a competitive player driven market, but wish to be exempt from other aspects of in-game competition to gain an advantage over other players is no different then a PVPer wanting to opt out of the player-driven economy because he doesn't want to pay you the price you want for some ships your selling. He should just be able to pay you what he feels is a fair price for your work.


Edit: That was interesting. Probably another CCP added value feature.

I'm not trying to take advantage of anyone, and I don't think I'm doing it unintentionally. I really don't care what other players have and if it isn't mine, then I don't want it.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#389 - 2013-01-30 18:54:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Rellik B00n wrote:
so if a player in a player run corp sits in Jita 4-4 all day as a trader, never undocks but turns over billions of ISK everyday, what then?
If massive freighter logistics wasn't trivialized thanks to wardec evasion and NPC corps, centralization of the economy would be lessened and other trade hubs could grow, meaning it could actually be advantageous to undock for trade reasons.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#390 - 2013-01-30 18:56:19 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
so if a player in a player run corp sits in Jita 4-4 all day as a trader, never undocks but turns over billions of ISK everyday, what then?


Why should you, or I, or anyone else care?
Henri Kantar
Doomheim
#391 - 2013-01-30 19:01:13 UTC
Has anyone noticed that NPC cors don't have player CEOs? I prefer the NPC CEO TBH.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#392 - 2013-01-30 19:03:39 UTC
Henri Kantar wrote:
Has anyone noticed that NPC cors don't have player CEOs? I prefer the NPC CEO TBH.


At least they don't steal from you.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#393 - 2013-01-30 19:04:35 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:


Edit: That was interesting. Probably another CCP added value feature.

I'm not trying to take advantage of anyone, and I don't think I'm doing it unintentionally. I really don't care what other players have and if it isn't mine, then I don't want it.

I think I can pretty much speak for everyone by saying that no one cares if you care or not.

Whether or not you care is irrelevant.

My NPC alt, sits in a high sec system, mining minerals while barely paying attention to what's happening, and building piles upon piles of ammo.

I build it cheaper, safer, and hassle free.

Then I ship it to null sec and undermine every single person who is trying to make a living building ammo in null sec.

But here's the kicker.
Some people are doing this, and don't even realize it. Some guys are just building things and selling them in a station in high sec, and thinking it's cool that that dude keeps buying up everything he builds. Which ends up in my market, competing with my goods, and driving my prices into the dirt because **** doesn't get purchaed in as high a volume as it does in high sec.



Whenever a NPC corp industrialist builds a T2 module, a null sec industrialist gets kicked in the nuts.

Why should you be able to dictate HOW I PLAY and I not be able to do the same to you?
You should be in a player run corp, that can be wardecced, and can't exploit a mechanic to avoid the risk, if you want to be able to dictate how I play EVE.

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#394 - 2013-01-30 19:07:36 UTC
so with just three accounts trained up for industrials, cycled every 24 hrs, a player is immune. you can meet the prereqs for a freighter pilot in under 30 days without skill remaps or implants. if they get permadecced by a corp with deep pockets then they can reroll. meanwhile everyone else is getting wardecced so business is very good for mr metahauler.

consequences to bad ideas.

forums.  serious business.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#395 - 2013-01-30 19:17:58 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:


Edit: That was interesting. Probably another CCP added value feature.

I'm not trying to take advantage of anyone, and I don't think I'm doing it unintentionally. I really don't care what other players have and if it isn't mine, then I don't want it.

I think I can pretty much speak for everyone by saying that no one cares if you care or not.

Whether or not you care is irrelevant.

My NPC alt, sits in a high sec system, mining minerals while barely paying attention to what's happening, and building piles upon piles of ammo.

I build it cheaper, safer, and hassle free.

Then I ship it to null sec and undermine every single person who is trying to make a living building ammo in null sec.

But here's the kicker.
Some people are doing this, and don't even realize it. Some guys are just building things and selling them in a station in high sec, and thinking it's cool that that dude keeps buying up everything he builds. Which ends up in my market, competing with my goods, and driving my prices into the dirt because **** doesn't get purchaed in as high a volume as it does in high sec.

Whenever a NPC corp industrialist builds a T2 module, a null sec industrialist gets kicked in the nuts.

Why should you be able to dictate HOW I PLAY and I not be able to do the same to you?
You should be in a player run corp, that can be wardecced, and can't exploit a mechanic to avoid the risk, if you want to be able to dictate how I play EVE.



So you want this to be pure fantasy? No connection to RL at all?

I've been war decced more than once because of my marketing practices. Most recent example: There were three types of scripts selling in Solitude with a lowest sell order price of 500k ISK. (Probably by someone like you.) I did a little spreadsheeting and found that, if I made them and sold them for 25k ISK each, I made a 14k ISK per unit profit. That's good enough for me. So far I have produced about 600 of them, and sold every one of them for 25k ISK.

That's my concept of fair marketing. It's like I said, you and I aren't playing the same game. We're just using the same server. Big smile
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#396 - 2013-01-30 19:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
so with just three accounts trained up for industrials, cycled every 24 hrs, a player is immune. you can meet the prereqs for a freighter pilot in under 30 days without skill remaps or implants. if they get permadecced by a corp with deep pockets then they can reroll. meanwhile everyone else is getting wardecced so business is very good for mr metahauler.

consequences to bad ideas.

hm 3 accounts to pay for regular access to one freighter
yeah sounds like mr metahauler never heard of opportunity cost, sounds like he never got past the "if i mine the ore itself its free' phase of eve business
or bat country
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#397 - 2013-01-30 19:20:46 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Rellik B00n wrote:
so if a player in a player run corp sits in Jita 4-4 all day as a trader, never undocks but turns over billions of ISK everyday, what then?

Some of you guys really have no understanding at all of economics do you?

If you have to ask such a basic question, you aren't smart enough to understand the answer.
Children learn the answer to that question for crying out loud.


a question designed to encourage debate, not a question asked for an answer. I thought you goon dudes were clever?
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#398 - 2013-01-30 19:21:13 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


So you've never used your LP to buy anything? Every item you take from the LP store and put on the market lowers the value of that same item for everyone else.

and who said anything about hurting other people. Your actions DO have consequences , some of which you cannot even see.

BECAUSE what you do affects others, you too should somehow be affected, either through the threat or actuality of a war dec (which I am NOT adovcating for npc corps), OR (and this is what I suggest) you should pay an alternative cost 9beyond the tiny costs npc corps have right now).

The NPC corp people getting to enjoy the preponderance of stuff in the game while getting to avoid one of its best balancing mechanisms (War) is kinda like people living in a country getting all the benefits of government programs while not paying very much in taxes (while their fellow citizens ARE paying those high taxes). Yea, NPC corps basically = EVE Welfare lol.

people should not be forces out of npc corps and npc corps (except FW corps) should not be war deccable, but the cost npc corp players pay for the awesome benefit of safety is to low and should rise.


No. None of my characters has ever bought anything from an LP store.The first time I went into an LP store, I didn't have enough to buy anything that I needed, so I never went back. Why should I?

Why are you making such a big deal about balancing things? I doubt that it is your responsibility to balance the game for other people. Why not leave them alone? Just because they have something you don't?

A lot of people are in NPC corps because they don't want to interact, don't want to PvP, don't want to be war decced.

Why do you feel it is your responsibility/duty to force them to interact? They pay their subscription fees to help keep the game going. Why not leave them alone rather than try to force them to play the game your way. A way that they might not like at all.



I'm just going to ignore the fluuf and answer the underlying question:

No, you cannot be left alone. EVE is an MMO. If you want to be left alone, go play a single player game.

What you and your kind really want is to have your cake and eat it to. Why do you think you should be able to do things that affect me (you DO spend isk in game, and that affects me) but not vice versa?

Truth is, I don't care why you think it. The answer is still no, you cannot be "left alone" in this game till YOU choose to stop interacting with the game.

period.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#399 - 2013-01-30 19:23:12 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:


Edit: That was interesting. Probably another CCP added value feature.

I'm not trying to take advantage of anyone, and I don't think I'm doing it unintentionally. I really don't care what other players have and if it isn't mine, then I don't want it.

I think I can pretty much speak for everyone by saying that no one cares if you care or not.

Whether or not you care is irrelevant.

My NPC alt, sits in a high sec system, mining minerals while barely paying attention to what's happening, and building piles upon piles of ammo.

I build it cheaper, safer, and hassle free.

Then I ship it to null sec and undermine every single person who is trying to make a living building ammo in null sec.

But here's the kicker.
Some people are doing this, and don't even realize it. Some guys are just building things and selling them in a station in high sec, and thinking it's cool that that dude keeps buying up everything he builds. Which ends up in my market, competing with my goods, and driving my prices into the dirt because **** doesn't get purchaed in as high a volume as it does in high sec.



Whenever a NPC corp industrialist builds a T2 module, a null sec industrialist gets kicked in the nuts.

Why should you be able to dictate HOW I PLAY and I not be able to do the same to you?
You should be in a player run corp, that can be wardecced, and can't exploit a mechanic to avoid the risk, if you want to be able to dictate how I play EVE.



They know they have an advantage. people with advantages rarely give them up for the greater good.

This is why we need to make sure our CSM people we vote for know about these issue and push them.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#400 - 2013-01-30 19:29:11 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:


So you want this to be pure fantasy? No connection to RL at all?

I've been war decced more than once because of my marketing practices. Most recent example: There were three types of scripts selling in Solitude with a lowest sell order price of 500k ISK. (Probably by someone like you.) I did a little spreadsheeting and found that, if I made them and sold them for 25k ISK each, I made a 14k ISK per unit profit. That's good enough for me. So far I have produced about 600 of them, and sold every one of them for 25k ISK.

That's my concept of fair marketing. It's like I said, you and I aren't playing the same game. We're just using the same server. Big smile

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say.

We aren't playing the same game you say?
Ok then.